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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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Discord.

On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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BungieONI said:
Coming back to this since i was rereading and Had a Thought, Right Stone plays extremely well with Worldly Warding since a bearer's increasing Will makes it increasingly difficult to kill them in the first blow.

I'd love a master rune from this, then plonk that master rune on armor with Preservation to prevent One-Hit Kills entirely.
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you know what would also be an awesome combo. Banner Master rune of grimnir.
Banner: The Master Rune imbues Valiant Grimnir's endurance, will and martial prowess to all under its aegis.
 
The current combo hopefully should have strong synergies with both the internal and external side.

Worldly warding makes you thougher the mroe you endure.

Right Stone makes it easier to tank damage to trigger worldly warding.

Inner courage should make Left stone more reliable by acting as a way to resist Will debuffs.

And Wordly warding should trigger off of things pinged by Inner Courage.
 
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Evillevi said:
The current combo hopefully should have strong synergies with both the internal and external side.

Worldly warding makes you thougher the mroe you endure.

Left Stone makes it easier to tank damage to trigger worldly warding.

Inner courage should make Left stone more reliable by acting as a way to resist Will debuffs.

And Wordly warding should trigger off of things pinged by Inner Courage.
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Right option for Stone won the vote, not Left option.
 
I just had a thought, if we are going to go hard on this whole Heir of Thungi thing we need to define more than 'why do you make runes?', we need to work out how we feel about the one question Thungi could never decide on since for most of his life the dwarfs did not encounter non-dwarf sophonts you could speak to. I think one of the big things we can push through is the one thing that allowed of to make progress on the Consternation, friendship with the Brana and the elves. Both of them are clearly less secretive about their magical lore and Snori has benefited tremendously from it. I think that might be a hint that maybe some less extreme secrecy might be a good idea. Obviously we would have to bring something enormous to the table to even start the conversation... but if we can crack the Consternation that would do it I think.
 
DragonParadox said:
I just had a thought, if we are going to go hard on this whole Heir of Thungi thing we need to define more than 'why do you make runes?', we need to work out how we feel about the one question Thungi could never decide on since for most of his life the dwarfs did not encounter non-dwarf sophonts you could speak to. I think one of the big things we can push through is the one thing that allowed of to make progress on the Consternation, friendship with the Brana and the elves. Both of them are clearly less secretive about their magical lore and Snori has benefited tremendously from it. I think that might be a hint that maybe some less extreme secrecy might be a good idea. Obviously we would have to bring something enormous to the table to even start the conversation... but if we can crack the Consternation that would do it I think.
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Probably the more complete thing is that Runesmiths should not be isolated from the world around us. Or specifically to view external things/people with an open mind and more calculated risk taking. Also coorperation is good.

Most of our biggest successes comes from taking risks with the bare minimum (for a rune lord) of information and time to test. Brana , the Anvil, the elves, are all stuff that most conservative wouldn't touch, but as rune lords you need courage and some risk taking for the goal of a better future .
 
Evillevi said:
Probably the more complete thing is that Runesmiths should not be isolated from the world around us. Or specifically to view external things/people with an open mind and more calculated risk taking. Also coorperation is good.

Most of our biggest successes comes from taking risks with the bare minimum (for a rune lord) of information and time to test. Brana , the Anvil, the elves, are all stuff that most conservative wouldn't touch, but as rune lords you need courage and some risk taking for the goal of a better future .
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I think you're right. What I think is happening socially is that dwarfs assume that the more power and experience you have the more careful you should be since you can break more things, which to a point makes sense. But if you keep scaling that forever eventually you get to the point where the two-millennia old Runelord does hardly anything since they are trying to be ten times more careful then they were at two hundred, but they do not have ten times more hours in the day than they did at 200 so their ability to do useful work/research etc... takes a nosedive at precisely the point when there is no one who can argue with them.
 
tri2 said:
think he meant getting him to do things for us as a form of protest to our own actions
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Jokes aside that is not a productive form of engagement if we were playing a more traditional Runesmith, one who does a lot more prep year in and year out, the ultimate goal would not matter, the problem is faulty methodology/risk assessment. Having a rival would not make you rush more than I don't know... the war with the Fimir which is objectively much more urgent.
 
DragonParadox said:
but if we can crack the Consternation that would do it I think.
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If we can crack the consternation theres 50/50 odds we're better than Thungni was. Simply because we don't know he solved every part of it.
You make it sound like a little thing but rune sight is a single part of one or possibly two bits of the consternation.
Dark as Silver said:
The Consternation is how do runes work, and there are lots of parts to that we don't get:
  1. How are runes powered. This is believed to be a solved problem by the ancestors as Thungni seemed to understand Deep Magic.
    1. How do runes convert Wind and Deep Magic into a generic resuable power source.
      1. Do all runes do this, or are some only able to use specific power sources?
    2. Are there other power sources? Such as we see when runes that reflect power or damage or absorb heat.
  2. Why the Rule of three. This is known to be a solved problem by the ancestors as there exist gauntlets with 3 MRunes + 2 basic.
    1. What determines the amount of strain a rune puts on the object its inscribed on
      1. How can we minimise this to get more runes on a single object?
      2. Why are armour runes so much more straining that Gromril and better is required to withstand it
    2. What determines the amount of strain a material can withstand.
      1. Why is Gromril so good? Why does are tiny fractions of Gromril particulate enough to make Azrilwut able to bear armour runes?
      2. How can we make better materials for runecrafting?
    3. Why is this such a 0 to 100 problem, as there are some but relatively few exceptions.
      1. Why aren't there weaker runes that we can use 4 of.
      2. Why aren't there materials between Gromril and other materials that might be able to withstand say one or two armour runes.
      3. Why can other materials withstand 3 runes, no armour runes, but Gromril which can withstand armour runes can't bear 4 runes?
      4. Why is 1 Mrune +2 basic runes equivilant to 3 basic runes.
      5. Why is the Lonely Rune different.
  3. Why the rule of form. It is unknown if this problem was solved by the Ancestors but they almost certainly had at least a partial solution.
    1. Why are the ancestor runes not limited by this?
      1. Are there other runes that can be used across forms without alteration?
      2. Why are the Ancestor MRunes limited by the rule of form.
    2. Why does the shape of an object change the effects of a rune, and when does it not? We don't need to redesign runes for different weapons.
      1. Should we be be redesigning runes for different sub forms within the wider category?
    3. Do all runes have an equivalent variant for different forms?
      1. Can we find a general solution to translate any rune from one form to another?
    4. How does size change it? If I want to strike a rune but I want to make it ten times as large, and don't have a set of tools of similar scare available there must be some strikes that need to occurs multiple times to extend the length of strokes. I think this has worked before on buildings so there must be some adjustment.
      1. Are these different runes, like Rune of Stone (Big variant)
    5. What defines the limit of an object to be runed.
      1. Buildings are both runeable, and can contain seperately runed rooms inside of them, how?
      2. Can we use this to create remote runes where a rune affects an object it is not connected to?
        1. Suspected to be impossible, maybe some kind of long wired connection?
      3. Modular runic equipment where you can swap single runes on an item?
        1. Soulcake has previously stated this to be impossible.
      4. Animating cores for Gronti?
        1. I would have assumed impossible but maybe not. RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest) Fantasy - Users' Choice! this may actually be working towards a Rune of Elemental Waking where a rune animates something but the animated thing is not itself runed?
  4. What is Runecrafting talent. This problem was presumably solved by Thungni and possibly by other ancestors who where able to make runes despite not being Thungni's descendants.
    1. Why is inherited the way it is?
    2. Can we alter or manipulate it?
  5. What makes a rune of a given shape produce the effects that it does. It is unknown if this problem has been solved apart from by the hypothetical perfect runesmith.
    1. Can we create a general solution to design a rune with specific properties from first principle.
    2. How do reagents actually work? We know they shift metaphysical definitions or whatever the correct phrasing was but how?
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We aren't cracking this any time soon.
I actually need to go back over that post because I think we've got a couple new questions to add from the trials.
 
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Dark as Silver said:
If we can crack the consternation theres 50/50 odds we're better than Thungni was. Simply because we don't know he solved every part of it.
You make it sound like a little thing but rune sight is a single part of one or possibly two bits of the consternation.

We aren't cracking this any time soon.
I actually need to go back over that post because I think we've got a couple new questions to add from the trials.
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My point was not that it would be easy, but that this is about the scale of success you would need to get dwarfs to be less secretive, much less with non-dwarfs. Do we have to solve all of it? I don't think so, the thing about many of those questions is once you have an answer to one you have the tools to start solving the others. Runes are Black-boxed, I suspect by the Old Ones, though it could be Thungi, it is too neat, too perfect to be a natural law rather than security, but the thing about security is once you have a path to get in you are in and then it's back to the much more natural and incremental growth that runelords (at least in this age) are quite good at.
 
Considering what happened to that Elemental that stuck their nose in during Skarren I suspect Thungni is the one who blackboxed them. It's the occam's razor answer. "Look at Rune during Creation. Rune God go BONK."
 
DragonParadox said:
My point was not that it would be easy, but that this is about the scale of success you would need to get dwarfs to be less secretive, much less with non-dwarfs.
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In that case you phrase it like this:
DragonParadox said:
I think the only way we can get dwarves to be less secretive is way in the end game of this quest.
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E:
ArchAIngel said:
Considering what happened to that Elemental that stuck their nose in during Skarren I suspect Thungni is the one who blackboxed them. It's the occam's razor answer. "Look at Rune during Creation. Rune God go BONK."
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No, I think the Occams Razor solution is a huge amount of winds were used in the creation of this rune, this creature made out of pure winds got sucked in by the process.
I dunno it theres another term for attributing currently unexplained phenomena to divine intervention because for it to be the simplest answer we'd need more examples of why and where this has happened rather than just "it was a one off occurance that can't be repeated unless Thungni is vibing with it."
 
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Dark as Silver said:
f we can crack the consternation theres 50/50 odds we're better than Thungni was. Simply because we don't know he solved every part of it.
You make it sound like a little thing but rune sight is a single part of one or possibly two bits of the consternation.
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From the flashback IMO Thungni's problem wasn't that he didn't solve it, but that his solution was not something that can be communicated , simplified or taught to other dawi.

In that sense I think that they are kinda geniuses that can intuit things that no one should really do so but struggle with why it works or simplifying it down for the not ancestor level dawi.

In that sense I think had we completed the Wind Eye and presented taht instead of the Gromril chain, we might have delayed Thungni passing on. Granted that was an RNG thing since the research behind Wind and Durin constearnation is brutal with our responsabilities.
 
DragonParadox said:
I just had a thought, if we are going to go hard on this whole Heir of Thungi thing we need to define more than 'why do you make runes?', we need to work out how we feel about the one question Thungi could never decide on since for most of his life the dwarfs did not encounter non-dwarf sophonts you could speak to. I think one of the big things we can push through is the one thing that allowed of to make progress on the Consternation, friendship with the Brana and the elves. Both of them are clearly less secretive about their magical lore and Snori has benefited tremendously from it. I think that might be a hint that maybe some less extreme secrecy might be a good idea. Obviously we would have to bring something enormous to the table to even start the conversation... but if we can crack the Consternation that would do it I think.
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The canon Runesmiths seem to have reached the point where they directly collaborated with elven archmages on rune designs.

That's suggestive, both that they were willing to do this, which suggests that they overcame the cultural taboos against collaboration, but also that the archmages could help, which suggests that they partially overcame the consternation enough for the archmages' knowledge and skill to be useful.
 
Dark as Silver said:
No, I think the Occams Razor solution is a huge amount of winds were used in the creation of this rune, this creature made out of pure winds got sucked in by the process.
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You are forgetting the moment where one of the Elementals was blinded by some unknown non-Wind force when it looked too close.

soulcake said:
They walk and stalk around the Runelord, curious and unassuming. Fourheads tilting and contorting at impossible angles to watch him and his work. One looks where it not ought to have and is blinded by the Glittering One's work for its trouble. It wordlessly screeches in pain, golden tears leaking from its 42 eyes and a forest of blades rising from its form like a hedgehog, as it tumbles and turns away to fall to its knees as perfectly as it walked.
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This is what Arch is actually talking about - not the moment where it gets hoovered into the rune.
 
BungieONI said:
You are forgetting the moment where one of the Elementals was blinded by some unknown non-Wind force when it looked too close.


This is what Arch is actually talking about - not the moment where it gets hoovered into the rune.
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Okay so, I think I misunderstood this
ArchAIngel said:
Considering what happened to that Elemental that stuck their nose in during Skarren I suspect Thungni is the one who blackboxed them.
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as a euphamism for Thungni deliberately intervening to kill and stuff the Elemental into the rune. (The Elemental got blackboxed, rather than Thungni blackboxed the runes)
So that was a mistake on my part.

Although that doesn't actually shift my argument, nor does the actual quote change my opinion.

I still don't necessarily agree because... what does it mean that Thungni blackboxed runes?
That there were a pure form of runecraft that exists in parallel but the one that we practice has had every rune deliberately modified in order to be blackboxed? How would that make sense when we discover new runes ourselves?
That every time someone observes runes in this way, Thungni sucker punchers then? That kinda puts a limit on how far we can progress our windsight research, and also suggests that since we've never seen it happen to KoS or the Elves, that the level of windsight we'd need to understand it would be at the level of creatures native to the Aethyr.

We already know or suspect that runes break down wind energy into some generic rune power, what makes this more than a creature of the winds naturally having a poor interaction with those processes?
What makes it different than one creature of the Aethyr accidentally intruding on the domain of another far more powerful one?

Theres definetly interesting things to unpack there, like it being able to see the glittering realm(?) through the rune. But I'm sticking with my argument that this was the result of processes we're already aware of and the utterly alien nature of the incarnate elementals is more of the Occams Razor approach than Thungni did it.
 
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Question for anyone here. I'm currently in the process of re-reading the quest and I was wondering...WTF is Vragni's issue with Snorri? Other than his lack of subtlety and love of Grand Displays, what about Klausson does he not like? Cause this has been going on since before the Karag Dum expedition and its quite...cute that he thinks he can eclipse us in importance.
Like I honestly like his character and his teaching style but he has a weird unexplained hatred of Snorri, which is from, as I understand it, being the conservative version of him and getting compared to him.
 
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weeblypanda said:
Question for anyone here. I'm currently in the process of re-reading the quest and I was wondering...WTF is Vragni's issue with Snorri? Other than his lack of subtlety and love of Grand Displays, what about Klausson does he not like? Cause this has been going on since before the Karag Dum expedition and its quite...cute that he thinks he can eclipse us in importance.
Like I honestly like his character and his teaching style but he has a weird unexplained hatred of Snorri, which is from, as I understand it, being the conservative version of him and getting compared to him.
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Vragni may not be a conservative but he does see Snorri and thinks he's flaunting guild edicts as set down by Thungni.
 
weeblypanda said:
Question for anyone here. I'm currently in the process of re-reading the quest and I was wondering...WTF is Vragni's issue with Snorri? Other than his lack of subtlety and love of Grand Displays, what about Klausson does he not like? Cause this has been going on since before the Karag Dum expedition and its quite...cute that he thinks he can eclipse us in importance.
Like I honestly like his character and his teaching style but he has a weird unexplained hatred of Snorri, which is from, as I understand it, being the conservative version of him and getting compared to him.
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It's a combo of a few things.

Vragni and Snorri both want to do the best for Dawi society, but fundamentally Snorri is THE Runelord of the North and his even his largely unused influence is already passively changing the north into a new paradigm of Rune Smithing. A new fourth faction of Rune Smith for example is currently being born as we speak. Now this is circumstantial being that Snorri is the LAST surviving Runelord but it still matters.

In so far as Vragni has a problem, is that he has to compromise on his personal principles to keep up with Snorri. And Snorri is someone who prioritise game changing discovery for weaker RuneSmith which means that part of his ideal spreads very far very fast as the younger generation are more pliable than outright Runelords.

This means that Vragni both has to match Snorri in equivalent accomplishment (which he does not like due to overstepping normal social norms) and further expand his reach into younger peeps beyond the apprentice system (which Vragni heavily supports).

For reference Snorrist are the equivalent to Vragni's cascading apprentice system. The difference is taht because Snorri does not discriminate beyond a small number of reasonable restriction Snorrists will eventually outnumber Vragni's apprentices even if they are not , technically, related to Snorri. Because Vragni is waging a form of culture war and the ideals are the matter at hand.
 
Evillevi said:
For reference Snorrist are the equivalent to Vragni's cascading apprentice system. The difference is taht because Snorri does not discriminate beyond a small number of reasonable restriction Snorrists will eventually outnumber Vragni's apprentices even if they are not , technically, related to Snorri. Because Vragni is waging a form of culture war and the ideals are the matter at hand.
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Vragni is a conservative who is forced to radicalize in order to keep up with his perceived rival. He has slowly formed a grudge because no matter what he does, bending his principles, taking on hundreds of students (which looks shockingly like an attempt at becoming a guild master) he is still losing because we/Snorri is trying to make Runesmithing more efficient to prevent losses. He thinks the methods aren't necessary but is forced to adopt them. Ah, even his apprentices will become reluctant Snorrists.

Man Snorri getting that hammer will be a death blow to Vragni...
 
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