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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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With addition to that, Snorri didn't know about that one-sided rivary until one of his apprentices met Vragni's one. Like, Snorri only goes with that rivalry for principle.
Well he sort of knew about it. He just didn't realize how obsessed Vragni was about the whole thing.

From the Grand Conclave of Karaz a Karak Pt. 4
Also hailing from Ornsmotek was one Vragni Svaltissson. Like Dwalin, Vragni had an affinity for Banner Runes, but unlike the poet he had branched out more evenly. From Grimbol's writings, and your own research, Vragni had a knack for producing a high quantity of quality products, something he was rather proud of and famed for in his old home in the south alongside the personal silver sigil he used to mark every work he made. He had come north in the belief that his talents would be useful until he heard of you. Grimbol wrote positively of Vragni's productivity, and he believed that given enough time the youth would prove himself worthy. Time, it seemed, proved Grimbol true, as the boy spearheaded an effort to arm the world's greatest warriors with fine runic equipment. While king Korr had not commissioned Vragni, the lad had found patronage in many of Ornsmotek's most influential clans. For all of this, Grimbol made note that Vragni always got rather upset when he got compared to you. Taking it as a challenge, he swore to beat you, in his words, without breaking tradition so erroneously.

You wish him luck, always good to have a source of motivation!
It was only after further interactions (think it was during the Fimir battle arc) that Snorri found out just how salty Vragni was about everything and started getting annoyed at the wazzok's behavior.
 
It was only after further interactions (think it was during the Fimir battle arc) that Snorri found out just how salty Vragni was about everything and started getting annoyed at the wazzok's behavior.
I guess it was so long that I forget that tid bit of information. But yeah, Vragni went above normal friendly rivalry between Rune Lords and it became much more.

We joked that if Snorri gets Thungi's Hammer, Vragni will blow the casket but let's be real, I am more worried about his reaction because at best, it would be fissy fit but he accepts or at worst he makes a deal with Hashut.
 
I guess it was so long that I forget that tid bit of information. But yeah, Vragni went above normal friendly rivalry between Rune Lords and it became much more.

We joked that if Snorri gets Thungi's Hammer, Vragni will blow the casket but let's be real, I am more worried about his reaction because at best, it would be fissy fit but he accepts or at worst he makes a deal with Hashut.
Nah, the guy is the hard traditional faction leader, no way he go that far against what 'a proper dawi' would do...
That said him getting a heart attack once the news reach him isn't out of question. I mean, he is screaming all day about how what Snorri do is a blasphemy to Thungi's teaching, can't really keep spouting that if Snorri is acknowledge as his heir.
 
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Nah, the guy is the hard traditional faction leader, no way he go that far against what 'a proper dawi' would do...
That said him getting a heart attack once the new reach isn't out of question. I mean, he is screaming all day about how what Snorri do is a blasphemy to Thungi's teaching, can't really keep spouting that if Snorri is acknowledge as his heir.
I think others see him as Radical even he himself can't acknowledge it.

And it is more of Snorri getting Seat of the Lost, one who would become 8th Ancestor if he wasn't lost.
 
The Hammer or specifically the right to take this trial essentially gives credence that Snorri's idea have some level of approval from Thungni. I assume this might take some of the edge off of Vragni's pursuit.
 
I think others see him as Radical even he himself can't acknowledge it.

And it is more of Snorri getting Seat of the Lost, one who would become 8th Ancestor if he wasn't lost.
At least snorri is self aware about his radicalness. Vragni is still in denial.

Or, more likely, blaming Snorri for his actions.

Would be hilarious if in the next rhunkalbrogg he gets ushered to Durin's seat and is caught completely flat footed.

No snorri, you are not just one of the rank and file runelords, and you can't pretend otherwise.
 
I feel like Snorri getting the hammer is going to have a very negative effect on Vragni. He has put a huge part of himself into this rivalry, and suddenly having his rival take the Seat of the Lost might break him.

We might want to talk to him after getting the hammer, so he doesn't do anything stupid.
 
I feel like Snorri getting the hammer is going to have a very negative effect on Vragni. He has put a huge part of himself into this rivalry, and suddenly having his rival take the Seat of the Lost might break him.

We might want to talk to him after getting the hammer, so he doesn't do anything stupid.
What makes you think he'll want to listen to anthing Snorri has to say?

Snorri is better off ignoring him altogether and keep doing what he was doing.

Besides what could Snorri even say that doesn't get interpreted as either incredibly patronizing or as a declaration of victory?
 
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What makes you think he'll want to listen to anthing Snorri has to say?

Snorri is better off ignoring him altogether and keep doing what he was doing.

Besides what could Snorri even say that doesn't Get interpreted as either incredibly patronizing or as a declaration of victory?

Agreed. Moving swiftly on and doing nothing to acknowledge that there ever was a conflict seems the best way of resolving it.

If getting the Hammer does means that Snorri is seen as Thungni's Heir in place of Durin, then I suspect we'll see a lot of that, as it turns out that, remarkably, many Runelords had of course agreed with Snorri's philosophy all along,

This is a society/institution where, it seems, people basically had to guess what they thought Thungni would have wanted from observation of his actions, as he didn't tell them, so they followed what they asserted was his example.

Now though, Thungni will probably be seen to have endorsed someone, which rather implies that person's actions and interpretation has also been endorsed.

People who'd previously confidently asserted that of course Thungni wanted the opposite and then left rather exposed. And not just about what they publicly disagreed with Snorri about, but about everything they've previously claimed. It fundamentally undermines their claim to be a reliable interpreter of the will of Thungni.

What's worse for them, is that although this effect is stronger retrospectively, it also applies prospectively. If they stake out a position about what Thungni would want his Guild and Cult to be like; there's now a risk that they'll be contradicted by Snorri in future.

This wasn't a risk when Thungni was alive, as he didn't take sides, and so any Runelord could just interpret His actions to support their position, ink blot test style.

That's possibly much less of an option now. That would be a significant reduction in the personal power of the other Runelords. It's much harder for them to take their own opinions and dress them up as an interpretation of the precedent set by Thungn's actions.

Basically, this isn't just about Vragni. It's about all Snorri's political competitors.

Depending on how it goes; if taken to it's furthest extreme it could be a bit like then transition of western Christianity from being a collection of communities lead by charismatic leaders/Bishops to a formal church lead by a Pope who claimed to be the heir of the person nominated by God to lead it.

Here, Durin is St Peter to Thungni's Jesus, with the other Apostles being Thungni's other direct students/children.

Snorri probably wouldn't want to push things that far, but even if he never doesn't ever take formal authority his informal authority is now likely to grow faster, particularly as the elder Runelords who Thungni taught and so still have a reasonable claim to have personal knowledge of what he would have wanted start to lay down their tools and go the Underearth.

When the day eventually comes when Snorri both holds Thungni's Hammer and is the last living runelord who has met any of the Ancestors in person it would become incredibly hard to disagree with his view about what Thungni would have wanted.

Now, other Runelords don't yet know that's going to happen, but as the centuries pass and other elders started fading away and Snorri keeps going younger Runelords are likely to start considering it.

Particularly if Snerra's talent has an impact on her longevity and she also lives an extraordinarily long time.
 
If getting the Hammer does means that Snorri is seen as Thungni's Heir in place of Durin, then I suspect we'll see a lot of that, as it turns out that, remarkably, many Runelords had of course agreed with Snorri's philosophy all along,
IMO we did get some level of support and perceived endorsement from Thungni when one of his last decision was to explicitly smack down one of our hecklers for getting out of hand.

Thinking back in that sense it's probably why Snorrists as a faction are a thing in the first place, because they could point to Thungni implying that Snorri's ideals are something he had a supportive opinion about.
 
taking on hundreds of students (which looks shockingly like an attempt at becoming a guild master)
Ehhhh, I think he was doing that long before the rivalry really took off, and nobody really takes issue with that. You're not a guild master because you tell a lot of apprentices what to do, you're a guild master when you start to tell non apprentices what to do. The numbers matter less than the rank of runesmiths, apprentices are meant to be told what to do, on account of them being bumbling beardlings.

The root of the issue this has been fermenting from comes from two places,
A) He's known for being a highly productive runesmith and he's living in Snorri's shadow constantly because Snorri is The Productive Runelord. This is enough for a minor chip on many peoples shoulders but additionally important to remember that from his perspective a lot of what Snorri does to produce more than him is close to blasphemy. Nobody @ me about how its not actually, it isn't and if it genuinely was then he could just raise it in the conclave and the problem would fix itself, however I think everyone has met one highly religious person who has felt the fact that other people aren't living up to standards they set themselves is a problem for the other person.
B) Is a bit more complex and probably fair critism, its best to leave it in Vragni's words:
In a way, Vragni can draw a fair number of similarities between that storm of ash and fire to Klausson's own behaviour. Grand displays, bold words and mighty deeds, but that pushed away all others while blinding the fool within to the realities of the outside world. A walking font of destruction that could so easily harm as well as it helped. Seemingly unchecked by nothing save its own will.

Klausson was too foolhardy to not barge in when he ought to wait. It may not be now, it may not be in a century or three, but Vragni can easily believe he would do something to rouse the ire of the Guild eventually.
I think Vragni's own bias is tinting his perspective here, I don't think Snorri's pushed as many people away as Vragni seems to think he has, however he's talking about real things here.
So as far as complaining about how Snorri interacts with other Runesmiths, the earliest source of this sort of thing is probably in the Arm Them actions leading up to the seige of Kraka Drakk. Faced with the looming existential threat of the north being destroyed, Snorri centralised a lot of planning and dispersal of jobs in order to maximise the number of weapons being made and runesmiths working. And in a situation with these stakes its hard to complain, but it also sets a precedent which is important. And I think that precedent let us nudge a lot more people into helping with the proshesis again later, might be misremembering. And unlike Vragni, he's applying this pressure to independent masters and journeymen who aren't learning from him see my point above about why the apprentice swarm isn't really an issue.
These individually are justifiable however big issues are often built of little things so it should be understood rather than crossing any specific line as a pattern of behaviour which makes crossing that line inevitable.
And it is also valid critism of player behaviour, there was a genuine risk of players causing a schism between the Runesmiths and Vallayan Priesthood because of a poorly thought through write in vote which soulcake stepped in to veto because Snorri would know better. We didn't have to push Khazagar to the razors edge of acceptability the way we chose to however we did so because we didn't want the hassle of additional votes and because mathmatically it was easier to earn back forgiveness from the conservatives in future additions to Khazagar than it would be to try a balanced approach the whole way through...
So yeah, pushing people away, blundering into things without thinking, you may not agree, you may think the costs are worth it, however it should still be critism worth considering.


The principled compromise that really kicked this into overdrive is his creation of a not!Khazagar. Theres not really been any stepping back from this since this point, because he wouldn't accept anything less than tearing down every Khazagar-like and even if we compromised to that point he'd still be pissed we put him through the whole thing.
 
he's talking about real things here
I'll note that Vragni's own apprentice system is a proof of concept that Snorri can turn his Khazagar into a Guild hall Lite (not that snorri would, ). Which could potentially accelerate if Snorri earns the Role of Thungni's heir.

Currently Dawi society doesn't have a truly formal state between Independent "peers" and Apprentice. But what Snorri did prior to the Khazagar effectively created a second stage of being an apprentice-lite under Snorri's guidance. It's just that those apprentices are unofficial and are established smiths or masters themselves.

While not all Runemaster/smith will treat Snorri as a Guild Master just for studying at the Khazagar, an unopposed Khazagar would likely eventually generate a situation where the surviving snorrists would eventually treat Snorri as a GM anyway even if he's not eventually called as such.

Largely because without an equivalent institution, each generation of Runesmith would have no choice but to be exposed to Snorri's influence as they make their way out of Rune Apprentinceship to the biggest potential source of Safe improvement. .

As is in a theoratical situation where Snorri takes up Durin's position as heir, Vragni's worry might come to pass as now the Khazagar would be back by the only living person with the right to make such a judgement in addition to Thungni's own judgement/opinions.
 
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. . .now that I think about it, Khazagar is like college right now.
It's more a Graduate/PhD program than a college, the people here are already specialized pretty well and by coming here they are seeking to push their own as wel of Dwarfen understanding and progressthat little additional bit further either individually or collectively.

The people here are all peers rather than students, attending a lecture isn't learning a class from someone with a firmly greater understanding than you but rather attending a dissertation of a given scholar's research and ideas and generally open for debate and questions to see if they can stand the test of academic rigor.

Khazagar has the problem, as you highlight, that the only equivalent situation is the Conclave of Runelords. The social weight of that tradition is carrying over, as the most powerful and oldest Runelord of Khazagar Snorri is perpetually treated as the Master of all his demense.
 
I'll note that Vragni's own apprentice system is a proof of concept that Snorri can turn his Khazagar into a Guild hall Lite (not that snorri would, ). Which could potentially accelerate if Snorri earns the Role of Thungni's heir.

Currently Dawi society doesn't have a truly formal state between Independent "peers" and Apprentice. But what Snorri did prior to the Khazagar effectively created a second stage of being an apprentice-lite under Snorri's guidance. It's just that those apprentices are unofficial and are established smiths or masters themselves.

While not all Runemaster/smith will treat Snorri as a Guild Master just for studying at the Khazagar, an unopposed Khazagar would likely eventually generate a situation where the surviving snorrists would eventually treat Snorri as a GM anyway even if he's not eventually called as such.

Largely because without an equivalent institution, each generation of Runesmith would have no choice but to be exposed to Snorri's influence as they make their way out of Rune Apprentinceship to the biggest potential source of Safe improvement. .

As is in a theoratical situation where Snorri takes up Durin's position as heir, Vragni's worry might come to pass as now the Khazagar would be back by the only living person with the right to make such a judgement in addition to Thungni's own judgement/opinions.
Theres a huge difference between Vragni's system of apprentices and being a guild master and another huge step between that and Khazagar.

If a master started to refuse to allow apprentices to journey after they're ready for it then maybe I guess that Vragni looks like a guildmaster, but at that point all of dwarf society would be gunning at them for breaking the implicit social contract of apprenticeships.

The missing formal stage you're thinking of is journeymen, and for a lot of dwarves this is where their career ends. They don't have to become masters if they don't want to.

Snorri has not created a new stage because the majority of runesmiths will probably never visit.
I know you say its the safest source of advancement available but keep in mind, its hundreds or thousands of miles from other holds, to get to Khazagar from Zorn would mean travelling from near the equator to the polar circle. The underway is not fully developed or tamed, small risks over a huge period like that do add up, to say nothing of the opportunity cost of doing other things that would be closer.
And even for the ones who do visit, the degree of influence he is able to exert over visitors is something like refusing access to specific courses. Which is a fairly minor blow and doesn't block career progression really.
And frankly although you can say that this is a new state between peer and apprentice and also that it encapsulates Masters and Journeymen... well its not really a single state, theres clearly a difference there between masters and journeymen. And... who cares anyway? its way more informal than any other previously existing state, and it is entirely optional. It's a meaningless state that only indicates the Khazagar attendee may have slightly wider connections, may have a higher level of skill than a purely average non atendee. And very likely knows the runes that are freely taught, but these are also runes that a lot of non attendees know anyway since we've been propagating them for long enough for people who learnt them prior to Khazagar to pick up an apprentice and teach them it.

I don't really think Runesmiths will treat him particularly differently for being the dean of Khazagar rather than The Oldest Runelord of the North, Snorri was already the first among equals who many runesmiths looked to for direction, especially since when we've had votes on it we've chosen to not use our position in Khazagar to favour people with similar beliefs. Now what we have done is make a new beacon to draw a lot more runesmiths to a place where Snorri is the first person to look too rather than other local runelords.

I think you're underestimating the influence a guildmaster is able to exert over the members of a guild. And you're overestimating the amount of influence one period of studying at Khazagar will have compare to close to a century of personalised tution which an apprentice will have with their own master.

E: urgh, my apologies for making people read that ramble. Let me know if there are any particular trains of thought I need to un jumble, my briain isn't working right now.

. . .now that I think about it, Khazagar is like college right now.
Wow, we should call it the Runiversitity. Something like that to really sink in what the intended purpose of this large institution designed to teach advanced courses outside of the standard schooling system was.
 
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I guess the only solution for undue poltical power gathering around our rhuniversity is to actively encourage all the other Karaks to build their own independent ones and suffer the intense intercollegiate rivalries.
 
The missing formal stage you're thinking of is journeymen, and for a lot of dwarves this is where their career ends. They don't have to become masters if they don't want to.
I think we're talking past one another in that our definitions/assumptions aren't the same. In my mind I used the words Independant Peers vs Apprentices specifically as apprentices and former apprentices still defer (if only partially) to their masters like Vragni + his former apprentices in a normal context.

For me the idea of a apprentice >Journeyman> master is besides the point as what I'm envisioning is closer to a second apprenticeship than the normal Journeyman's journey. And this is in specific respect to how I think Vragni's logic is made wrt an unopposed Runeversity.

In so far as I think Vragni is concerned, the cultural drift (over very many Runesmith generations) into a guild like system is possible by way of Vragni's own apprentice chain system taken to an extreme and without the safeguards that Vragni has. Because the Khazagar initially presents itself as an expansion of Snorri's prothethics training where some Runesmith treated it as being in a temporary apprenticeship even with the initial limited setup.

And when you have impressionable "Beardlings" learning for an extremely extended period (compared to normal Journeyman) of time under the aegis of Snorri's Khazagar , with Snorri funding, with Snorri's knowledge, Snorri's clan as protectors, etc , you can get a lot of Dawi doing what Vragni's apprenticed did of automatically defering to and or copying Vragni's likes/rivalries/dislikes. Especially if you don't have Vragni's rules to maintain the independance of his apprentices.

But back to Snorri-Vragni , my understanding is that Vragni's worry is over the course of generations. It's not an immediate problem because if it were we would have immediately been smacked down by THungni or Vragni would have gone to great lengths to bring it up to Thungni.
I think you're underestimating the influence a guildmaster is able to exert over the members of a guild. And you're overestimating the amount of influence one period of studying at Khazagar will have compare to close to a century of personalised tution which an apprentice will have with their own master.
SO on this my position is does Vragni know that? In my mind the idea isn't about what is likely, but what Vragni thinks.

After all for the purpose of Vragni's fear, there's no actual limit to how long someone can stay and benefit from the Khazagar nor does he know how much personalized attention we give. Prior to this for Snorri's Prothethics/Chainmail boot camp we did provide some level of consistent oversight and personal attention to the people we're teaching. Do it for 10 items and a dedicated Journeyman might spend 100 years under us with us giving tidbits , advice , resource and/or instructions on their education. It won't be as good as a normal Master but it's not as casual as say Hammerspite and his challenge.

In practice we, the voters, know we won't do it because that sweet research drip is already a pain to do, but we have not actually communicated to most outside parties on our plans as of yet.
 
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SO on this my position is does Vragni know that? In my mind the idea isn't about what is likely, but what Vragni thinks.
Well I can tell you what Vragni doesn't think:
I'll note that Vragni's own apprentice system is a proof of concept that Snorri can turn his Khazagar into a Guild hall Lite (not that snorri would, ).
Because Vragni doesn't think apprentices make a guildmaster.
The drift that would need to happen to make that occur is the sort of thing that dwarves are probably already prepped to recognise and handle. I assume there are existing safeguards of some kind to protect apprentices from exploitative masters(complaining to clan, other master ect ect), and the journeymaning process itself is designed to make them more independent from the master not more dependent.

As far as Khazagar goes, I think we can and should assume that Vragni has a reasonable expectation of what happens in Khazagar. Its a public building, and frankly I'd bet money that he's grit his teeth and walked around the building incognito making notes on how he intends to upstage us. And we'd been teaching for so long that the prosthesis runes were well known globally so just assuming its that but with better facilities would be pretty damn close.
I think we can give him a little benefit of the doubt and assume he's smart enough to know that Khazagar attendees do not get clockworked oranged.

If you remember the journeyman interlude posts, I think Fyolla was the only one who's journeying was leisurely enough that they could afford to only make 10 items in their entire journey. Even granted infinite resources, Snorri is an exception not a rule when it comes to spending an entire decade on a single item. And there are only 9 courses being taught, now, that doesn't count the prosthesis separately but it also includes the Mrunes that they wouldn't be allowed to learn and separate courses for the parts of the perfected adamant maker. I'm not sure what ten items you were imagining but I don't think it was 6 prosthetics, a chainforger and something else.
I don't know why you think these journeymen would be more impressionable than normal. Unless you think the existence of Khazagar would make masters half arse the apprenticeship and release them too young expecting the rhuniversity to pick up the slack?

As I said in the first post. Its not that a line has been crossed (although Snorri is making new and exciting discoveries on exactly how far that line can be pushed), if it had been he could have just brought it up infront of the conclave. Its the pattern of behaviour that makes crossing the line inevitable. There will be another step. He knows it, we know it.
 
Incredibly controversial opinion:

I hope Kazaghar turns into The Great Shitstorm of the Golden Age. I hope it genuinely ends up becoming a point of contention, of conflict, of breaking, and echoes spread throughout time, a whisper, a cacophony, so that there is a churning, grinding, engine of change rather than back-patting, conservative gerontocracy that clings to a singular orthodoxy and avoids the worst portions of the canon timeline.

Also because I think it would be neat to read.
 
Because Vragni doesn't think apprentices make a guildmaster.
I don't know why you think these journeymen would be more impressionable than normal. Unless you think the existence of Khazagar would make masters half arse the apprenticeship and release them too young expecting the rhuniversity to pick up the slack?
So very specifically I try to avoid saying that Snorri would be a Guildmaster but rather , hmmm, I meant like Apprentice chain and guild hall with respects to teh influence that it has as opposed to a strict hierarchy. Vragni's stated goal went something like "curtail the undoubtable influence the former's building will exert on the culture and preconceptions of the Northern Runesmiths".

In that sense like Vragni's own apprentices who copy or mimic some parts of his mannerism/likes/dislikes , I think Vragni's critque is a form of projection that an unrestrained Snorri would gain the flaws of Vragni's system without the safeguards that Vragni has.

Furthermore we don't need to replace the role of master in a Rune-smith's life, we just need to be the second biggest thing in it. This can even apply (if more slowly) to masters as our system doesn't make much of a distinction to the role of Journeyman/Master outside of the min required skill to learn X.

Do this over enough generations and you'll have some portion of the Snorrists just defering to or outright copying Snorri because each successive generation would have historical precedence in the Master/Apprentice chain where the second biggest influence is Snorri.

I'm not sure what ten items you were imagining but I don't think it was 6 prosthetics, a chainforger and something else.
This is more like a future conjecture rather then the current state of being. As in in the future, we could at some personally run a boot camp like the OG prothethics but this time for windsight or Durin's consternation or etc. It doesn't even need to be in paralel as just having 1 camp for one thing every 10 years in rotation would generate a 100 (10 turn) year cycle of learning from the OG master .

But like you said in practice the Khazagar is unlikely to ever generate such a strong influence on Snorrists beyond Snorri being the eldest Runelord as we don't have any plans that actualize anything on this path. Not the least of which is that our Research drip is neverending.
Even granted infinite resources, Snorri is an exception not a rule when it comes to spending an entire decade on a single item.
10 years to learn and get good at a single Rune/Rune Combo/etc. Not 10 years in making an item.
 
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As the rhuniversity gains traction, Snorri's influence on the masters learning there should become less direct.

There will eventually be a point where there are many other teachers.

You could go there and theoretically not learn from Snorri directly.
 
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