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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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Not for our Gronti, thanks to BA.
Remains to be seen.
-- Items and Runes made while wearing Barak Azamar will instinctively draw from the deep magic of the earth as easily as they do the winds, improving their longevity.
I'm sure our Gronti will outlast others, however fundamentally they can't keep drawing on Deep Magic when theres no Deep Magic left.

It could be that it extends their life by a century, it could be that the reduced number of items drawing from it now everyone elses has gone offline allows it to stabilise indefinitely.
We don't know what Deep Magic is, or why it never seemed to replenish, so until we know the answer to those questions I'm going to assume we're less special than more. Snorri isn't the only runelord who'd be interested in this subject after all, especially after they start going offline. And this happens during the War of Vengance not the Time of Woes, so there should be plenty of Runelord knowledge still around.
E:
I think that it will require us to carve the rune of stone with our daughter. Rune of stone is first rune you are taught but more importantly it is also the first rune you TEACH. Which probably will stop a lot of other runsmiths because they probably didn't bring beardlings for something so important or even if they did they would not let them help.
What if we'd voted for Karstah to take this test alone? Would she have had to turn back and pick up an apprentice?
 
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Deep magic isn't canon, we can make no assumptions about how it works or that it will go away. It's a backformation used to explain things and serves as an additional avenue of exploration and discovery, but we know no more about its behavior than Snorri does, because Soulcake can simply decide it works contrary to any prior assumptions drawn from prior quests.
 
Deep magic isn't canon, we can make no assumptions about how it works or that it will go away. It's a backformation used to explain things and serves as an additional avenue of exploration and discovery, but we know no more about its behavior than Snorri does, because Soulcake can simply decide it works contrary to any prior assumptions drawn from prior quests.
So its canon that the Gronti Duraz failed to work because the 'Old Magic' began to sink too deep into the earth for Runelords to reach it.
We know that Deep Magic is a source of magic that we draw up from deep inside the earth.

Seems like the only thing thats fanon about deep magic is the name. And while soulcake absolutely has the power to make changes assuming that its the same thing seems like the Occams Razor solution.
Otherwise everytime someone says "Can we do _______?" the answer becomes "Don't know, haven't researched it to see if its possible." or "Maybe soulcake will change how things work to make it possible."
 
So its canon that the Gronti Duraz failed to work because the 'Old Magic' began to sink too deep into the earth for Runelords to reach it.
We know that Deep Magic is a source of magic that we draw up from deep inside the earth.

Seems like the only thing thats fanon about deep magic is the name. And while soulcake absolutely has the power to make changes assuming that its the same thing seems like the Occams Razor solution.
Otherwise everytime someone says "Can we do _______?" the answer becomes "Don't know, haven't researched it to see if its possible." or "Maybe soulcake will change how things work to make it possible."

We know that the gronti stop working eventually, but not why. It could just as easily be due to Slann geomancy as anything else, and yes we probably won't know unless we research it a great deal.
 
It's also just not relevant for the quest for two reasons. 1) Its incredibly, absurdly far away, long past our reasonable play length - this quest will very likely end before that happens. 2) Khazagar and Barak Azamar may have largely ameliorated or mitigated the issue in the North.

Spending time worrying about a far future canon event is kinda a waste of time in my perspective.
 
I mean there are several ways to interpret deep magic. With the waystones out of the image, (shame about it to me, I like the divided loyalities interpretation of the waystones for the dwarves, made the most sense to me) I like the idea of tectonic energy. The references to eternity being forever changing that Snorri see's in his pseudo vision quests seem to be a reference to it. Along with Thungi's work in thunder mountain appear to be a tectonic shackle meant to keep it at bay in the World's edge mountains. Deep magic could be the magic of the earth itself, a great ocean of constantly flowing and cooling stone, just like the dwarfs they build on the bones of the past, they stand on it's previous work proudly. Dwarfs are also viewed as having the nature of stone, something that rejects all other forms of magic except it's own. Eternity and endless change a cycle of eons.

So in summary, to me deep magic is the magic of the earth, the world that was before the enforced unreality of the Old Ones. It is the ultimate expression of runecraft, an acknowledge meant of movement and change being as much in the nature of Stone as it is the winds. Hence when the deep magic began to fade it was the last great upheaval of the young world, the Time of Woes. All of a sudden the world was old, it had entered it's decline and with it the race that was of it's nature. Ohh this is a fun theory. It could explain so much, and as long as the dwarves remain pushing forward they feed the deep magic that emotion, but when they stopped trying to honor their ancestors in their work and merely match them, it began to decline as the people slipped into ennui, as a woe is me I can never match them attitude sets in, its a self reinforcing cycle.
 
Deep magic is the unaspected magic that runs through the geomantic web of the old ones. It's whats drawn forth from the polar gates that were ripped asunder and lead to the rise of magic in the world until the vortex was created.
 
We know that the gronti stop working eventually, but not why. It could just as easily be due to Slann geomancy as anything else, and yes we probably won't know unless we research it a great deal.
We do know why.
Article:
During the War of Vengeance, the "old magic" that had empowered the Rune Golems had begun to sink deeper into the earth, out of the reach of any Runelord.[1a]

I assume what you mean is "We don't know why the magic sank." which is true... but I've always been arguing that assuming it hasn't been derailed until we have evidence it has been is the simplest answer, and until we can actually research all those other unknowns, the best we can do.

It's also just not relevant for the quest for two reasons. 1) Its incredibly, absurdly far away, long past our reasonable play length - this quest will very likely end before that happens. 2) Khazagar and Barak Azamar may have largely ameliorated or mitigated the issue in the North.

Spending time worrying about a far future canon event is kinda a waste of time in my perspective.
Honestly I its probably closer than researching a way to create a to create genuine life. So relevant in response to the question. Or the question itself was at fault.

2) Or by drawing it up faster we might have accelerated the drain, or just accelerated it elsewhere in the empire. Or the Deep Magic is coming from a Geomancy Wayline and once it snaps back it won't matter how deep we try and drain because the leyline will be moved entirely. Or the Deep Magic is from a Wayline, but the increased draw of BA/Khazagar will allow us to keep pumping until Maz shows up to see who's stealing his magic juice. Or a huge number of other possibilities.
Yeah theres a lot of unknowns, we all know that. What I'm interested in is what represents the fewest assumptions of those unknowns.

With the waystones out of the image, (shame about it to me, I like the divided loyalities interpretation of the waystones for the dwarves, made the most sense to me)
If it makes you feel better, we are predating the sort of elven collaboration that made that possible in Divided Loyalties timeline, so its still possible that something like that will be a Khazor like wonder we can contribute to that will come out of the Waystone research.
... Although I'm not sure if the dwarvern megaproject that it powered in DL were literally created by the Ancestors, if so the waystone network in DL must have been created earlier than now to power them. Some things like the runeworks keeping thundermountain under control seem to have equivilants.

Deep magic is the unaspected magic that runs through the geomantic web of the old ones. It's whats drawn forth from the polar gates that were ripped asunder and lead to the rise of magic in the world until the vortex was created.
What I don't like about the geomantic theory is that the KA stretched North to South from near artic to the equator, and east to west until the coast, if its a web drawing it somewhere, there should be somewhere in the KA where the deep magic is still flowing through and can be accessed.
 
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What I don't like about the geomantic theory is that the KA stretched North to South from near artic to the equator, and east to west until the coast, if its a web drawing it somewhere, there should be somewhere in the KA where the deep magic is still flowing through and can be accessed.

Well the first city of the Dwarves could well be such a place, but I think basically most of the energy would have been flowing to Lustria, with the destruction of the polar gates the fact that the energy becomes so hard to pull on makes a lot of sense because there's only a trickle actually getting into the geomantic web.
 
Well the first city of the Dwarves could well be such a place, but I think basically most of the energy would have been flowing to Lustria, with the destruction of the polar gates the fact that the energy becomes so hard to pull on makes a lot of sense because there's only a trickle actually getting into the geomantic web.
It kept flowing for thousands of years between the destruction of the polar gates and the War of Vengeance.
 
It kept flowing for thousands of years between the destruction of the polar gates and the War of Vengeance.

We basically have no information for the scale of the geomantic web, or how it worked, that could be entirely expected given that no one is around to properly draw on what is in the geomantic web afterwards. It's really impossible to say but the scales of the working of the old ones, moving the planet to where they wanted it etc, I wouldn't be surprised if the geomantic webway can store truly ridiculous amounts of energy and that the draw from the dwarves is so small it just took that long for it to run out.
 
We basically have no information for the scale of the geomantic web, or how it worked, that could be entirely expected given that no one is around to properly draw on what is in the geomantic web afterwards. It's really impossible to say but the scales of the working of the old ones, moving the planet to where they wanted it etc, I wouldn't be surprised if the geomantic webway can store truly ridiculous amounts of energy and that the draw from the dwarves is so small it just took that long for it to run out.
I'm just saying, if magic was flowing so slowly across the geomantic web, that it took thousands of years for the lack of incoming magic from the gates to reach the KA on its way to Lustria, then the KA is large enought that we would be able to trace the front (for lack of a better word) across the KA over centuries or millenia, as Gronti stop working starting from the North East and ending in the South West.
The last Runelord to awaken Gronti's was in KaK, which would be pretty central assuming that any holds west of Karak Hirn were too new and poor to have Gronti and that the Norse Dwarves were lost and Zorn was gone (I don't know when in the timeline it was lost).

There are other explanations related to the Geomantic Web, however when different arguments have different reasoning they need different responses.
I was specifically responding to you here:
Well the first city of the Dwarves could well be such a place, but I think basically most of the energy would have been flowing to Lustria, with the destruction of the polar gates the fact that the energy becomes so hard to pull on makes a lot of sense because there's only a trickle actually getting into the geomantic web.
I think there can be valid reasoning for things like this:
the geomantic webway can store truly ridiculous amounts of energy and that the draw from the dwarves is so small it just took that long for it to run out.
can be made.
But can we just acknowledge that this is a totally unrelated argument to what I was responding to...
 
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It's kinda deep in another tech tree. Eight now Snorri basically delves on the effect of the runes, the invisible part of the world that that dwaves where not aware that allow him to finese some rules.

This gronti thing is more about the nature of rune construction wich we are not really the best at.
 
would need a sample for snorri to stare with his magic eye

We have. What we know is that Deep Magic is invisible to Snorri's eye but just looks and behaves like the regular Winds when observed by elven or Brana Windsight.

This strongly suggests that Deep Magic comes in eight flavours that map very strongly to the conventional eight Winds. This may be because that's what happens to magic in the world, that it takes on those eight aspects, or it may mean that it's the eight Winds from the imploded Warp Gates that have been transformed or acquired a new property somewhere along the way.
 
Rolling for the next one.

EDIT: waow

EDIT 2: Apologies, that's supposed to be labelled concealment, not spellbreaking.
soulcake threw 1 100-faced dice. Reason: Spellbreaking Total: 58
58 58
 
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