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Discord.

On Thread Etiquette:

I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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Adhoc vote count started by Andmeuths on Mar 18, 2024 at 4:56 AM, finished with 112 posts and 36 votes.


Voting seems to have settled down. It seems that we have a clear winner.
 
We can get Shifting steel for 1 Khazagar action, and that way Snorri gets to learn it too.
Oh I hadn't noticed that.
Pretty cool,
(*New*)[ ]Learning [Cost: 1 Khazagar action] Learn a Rune(s). Not everyone in Khazagar is telling the world they're willing to share their lore, preferring to share that opportunity to only those they think are worthy and there's nothing wrong with that. Similarly, there's nothing is stopping you from using the facilities you designed to learn a few things yourself. The consequences of doing so aren't always obvious, and there may be other circumstances at play.
- [ ] Rune of Shifting Steel (Weapon) [Cost: +1 Khazagar action, and any [T2] Reagent] You can find a Runesmith who knows how to keep their mouth shut and just teach you for a fair enough price you reckon.
- [ ] Rune of Binding Form (Weapon) [Cost: +1 Khazagar action, and any [T2] Reagent]] You can find a Runesmith who knows how to keep their mouth shut and just teach you for a fair enough price you reckon.
- [ ] Master Rune of Thunderstorms (Weapon) [Cost: +2 Khazagar actions, and any 2x [T3] Reagent(s)] You've been made aware that an Ornsmotek Master who left the Hold in the wake of Vragni's actions has made a few insinuations to a few select parties that he'd be willing to share this Rune in exchange for a Master Rune and a few other things.
 
Honestly, for the Master Rune of Thunderstorms, I kinda wanna go full Rune Trade on the Master Runesmith.
I get that but...
The consequences of doing so aren't always obvious, and there may be other circumstances at play.

Ornsmotek Master who left the Hold in the wake of Vragni's actions

a few other things.
Yeah I don't think we want to touch such obvious politics bait unless we have a specific plan for using this rune.
 
I have a proposal for a Talisman type gear.

Master Rune of Challenge, Rune of Ineptitude, Rune of Lethargy.

Something that taunts and debuffs your enemies.
You blow the horn, and the foe is taunted.
The foe is taunted, and tries to attack you.
Then the foe is given the idiot ball and made tired, because fuck them.
 
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Something that taunts and debuffs your enemies.

It goes hilariously well with our Spite Amulet, because your enemy keeps trying to hit you and they don't know why they are burning, because they are slowly getting stupider thanks to the Amulet, weakening their decision making ability in combat. My only concern is that a tired enemy may mean lower Spite amulet damage.

Ring of the Foolish Foe.
 
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I have a proposal for a Talisman type gear.

Master Rune of Challenge, Rune of Ineptitude, Rune of Lethargy.

Something that taunts and debuffs your enemies.
You blow the horn, and the foe is taunted.
The foe is taunted, and tries to attack you.
Then the foe is given the idiot ball and made tired, because fuck them.
Another Variant from the same conversation:

Rune of Roots, Rune of Ineptitude, and Rune of Lethargy

Enemy is rooted to the ground, has an idiot ball and is tired.

Aka, Rune of Stay put and Let me kill you
----
Potential 1AP replacement Axe

M.Currents, Striking and Kneecapping.

Kneecapping => Strikes are more likely to hit targets at nearby joints and similar points of articulation
Striking => Guides wielder to strike the foe's most vulnerable areas, multiple copies improve martial skill
M.Currents => The weapon cuts like the biting winds at the mountain's peak, faster, sharper and unblockable.

Rune Axe of Critfishing.
---
Edit:

Combo fishing for Master Rune of Decapitation

Kneecapping + Striking + Grudge
The tags on Kneecapping => On Attack, Offensive, Physical, while Decapitation => On Hit, Grudge, Offensive
 
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Potential 1AP replacement Axe

M.Currents, Striking and Kneecapping.

Kneecapping => Strikes are more likely to hit targets at nearby joints and similar points of articulation
Striking => Guides wielder to strike the foe's most vulnerable areas, multiple copies improve martial skill
M.Currents => The weapon cuts like the biting winds at the mountain's peak, faster, sharper and unblockable.

Rune Axe of Critfishing.

I actually wonder whether Snorri has reached the level where after all his gear and the Khazagar buff is taken into account, he can make a T4 weapon on a single AP, provided he uses Adamant and T4 reagents. If we ever have the will to muster such an experiment, this is proposal a good test case for a straight forward, back to basics weapon that is better than our old Rune Axe.

Axe of the Critic

Now, what is Khazalid for Critic?
 
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Khazagar was a barn for the herd of ornery and independent goats that you called the Runesmiths Guild. You made a nice barn, furnished and stocked well enough to satisfy and yes, encourage several of those goats to stick around as well as bring in several other goats from further afield, but most of them had been bothering you well beforehand. So long as you extended your authority only to the sanctity of the barn and didn't try to actually herd the goats inside you broke no laws nor invited censure.
...has Snorri actually tried explaining it like this? I mean, Vragni has dealt with herding his apprentices enough that he has to understand this.
 
A random thought struck me as I was looking over Karstah's rune selection; would the Rune of Charcoal, Purification, and maybe a Master Rune of Valaya have an effect on filtering out toxins from various things or maybe serve as some kind of protection against poison, or maybe gas leaks in a mine?
 
Yeah I don't think we want to touch such obvious politics bait unless we have a specific plan for using this rune.

I actually wonder whether we can learn Shifting Steel and Binding Form directly from the Drazh Runesmith. If he invented those two runes, he sounds like an interesting Runesmith to get to know.

A random thought struck me as I was looking over Karstah's rune selection; would the Rune of Charcoal, Purification, and maybe a Master Rune of Valaya have an effect on filtering out toxins from various things or maybe serve as some kind of protection against poison, or maybe gas leaks in a mine?

It's an interesting line of research and a design only Karstah can do, and a god-sent for miners and industrial workers especially if it somehow can be reduced down to a regular rune any runesmith can make. Also, it's very good at dealing with Industrial Waste, not just gas leaks and poison. Just keep in mind if this process succeeds, it will produce alot of waste heat, but that's what Flamedrinking is made for.

First one goes to Izgrom to help with his mine dives.
 
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A random thought struck me as I was looking over Karstah's rune selection; would the Rune of Charcoal, Purification, and maybe a Master Rune of Valaya have an effect on filtering out toxins from various things or maybe serve as some kind of protection against poison, or maybe gas leaks in a mine?
Rune of ClearbreathingAllRuneHelmets filter out toxic gas from being breathed in

We have this rune.

Master Rune of SalvationTalismanicMaster Rune, Lonely RunePoison in the wearer's body will not spread beyond point of entry, is instead drawn out and burned away and the wound slowly healed
I (or at least, I think it was me...) also came up with this a while back... it could be a purification variant.
 
Master Rune of Challenge, Rune of Ineptitude, Rune of Lethargy.
Lethargy doesn't really contribute to a synergy. Its a good debuff, but being sleepy doesn't seem like a good combo with taunted in the same way making bad decisions does.
How about Greed instead?
Rune of GreedBanner, TalismanicRuneUser stokes the greed of enemies in range, making them target the user to the detriment of tactics
So we're doubling up on the taunt effect and the bad decision making effect.
I actually wonder whether we can learn Shifting Steel and Binding Form directly from the Drazh Runesmith. If he invented those two runes, he sounds like an interesting Runesmith to get to know.
Ehhh, probably not, the other two specifically don't seem to have extra effects tied to them in the same way, and it seems implied multiple people know them. So either they're a different guy, or Snorri wouldn't choose to learn from a master with so many strings attached if theres other choices available.
I don't think anything suggests we'd be learning from the person who specifically invented any of the three runes available.
E:
I actually wonder whether Snorri has reached the level where after all his gear and the Khazagar buff is taken into account, he can make a T4 weapon on a single AP, provided he uses Adamant and T4 reagents. If we ever have the will to muster such an experiment, this is proposal a good test case for a straight forward, back to basics weapon that is better than our old Rune Axe.
Check out turn 18. We made 3 legendries, and two epics in one turn.
Its not quite 1 AP to make a legendary because of the free actions and procs. However it does mean we had a 60% chance, even on an item that had no MRune.
This predates all of the buffs you mention and an additional 380 years of experience and trait level ups. We've probably been at that level for quite a while. Which is why I keep arguing that we're overinvesting effort in a lot of our builds.
 
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This predates all of the buffs you mention and an additional 380 years of experience and trait level ups. We've probably been at that level for quite a while. Which is why I keep arguing that we're overinvesting effort in a lot of our builds.

The best way to prove this is to convince the thread to spend 1AP on Part 2 on an item that is un-deniably useful, but no-one is going to insist on spending more than 1AP on. A Ring of turning your enemy to tactical imbeciles and stopping them from running, or a straightforward Axe of Critfishing falls into the category of "quick and dirty 1AP builds" that contributes in solving a very real problem in Snorri's build - which is the best move for enemies to make is to run. (Which is why we have no interest in fear/dismay runes because our build wants our opponents to stand up and fight Snorri). These items don't fundamentally alter how Snorri fights, but provides vital utility to cover certain scenarios and attempts to get around Snorri's current build.

That being said, I think that how many AP we invested legitimately mattered for gamechanging stuff like Skarrenbazz, and an item that buffs every Master Rune by one feature definitely is likely a huge gamechanger from here on out.
 
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The best way to prove this is to convince the thread to spend 1AP on Part 2 on an item that is un-deniably useful, but no-one is going to insist on spending more than 1AP on. A Ring of turning your enemy to tactical imbeciles and stopping them from running, or a straightforward Axe of Critfishing falls into the category of "quick and dirty 1AP builds" that contributes in solving a very real problem in Snorri's build - which is the best move for enemies to make is to run. (Which is why we have no interest in fear/dismay runes because our build wants our opponents to stand up and fight Snorri). These items don't fundamentally alter how Snorri fights, but provides vital utility to cover certain scenarios and attempts to get around Snorri's current build.

That being said, I think that how many AP we invested legitimately mattered for gamechanging stuff like Skarrenbazz, and an item that buffs every Master Rune by one feature definitely is likely a huge gamechanger from here on out.
The two real issues are firstly is finding things that are worth more than 1 AP but not worth 2. And secondly, convincing people that its a cool idea to invest in.
Quick and Dirty is rarely narratively satisfying. And I've previously attempted to make the case that just filling in our two empty equipment slots with any legendaries would be approximately the same as creating a new Mythical now at least as far as being a statstick goes (comparing other bonuses gets trickier).
The other approach that would make sense for me is dealing with "What if people just have higher number than us." any item will do something in this area, and our best solution would probably be to make the remaining items of our kit in a single multi item request, and just accept that these will be legendaries or even mere epics that we'll have to replace over time.
This would represent something like a +20 or +30 over our existing gear as currently our axe and Deamonward talisman doesn't give us a dice bonus but a Legendary seems to be base +10, with Zharghal and BA forging it seems to be increased to +15, and the prosphetic eye doesn't even seem to count towards our item cap so we potentially have three empty slots. This doesn't consider that we might be able to increase the set bonus or any special effects these items would have, so getting a jump of +60 isn't actually out of reach.... We've left a lot of low hanging fruit around.
In the long term they would need to be replaced but it would let us feel out combos and potentially when it came to replace them we'd be replacing them with items that have their own compressed combos on them.

As far as the master rune buffer goes. Yes and no. I want that so much, it looks like extra free power. However non of our problems right now are that SB or BA are not keeping up with their jobs.
Its not a gamechanger if we go from winning by a lot to Winning by a Lot. And the most recent march we spent a lot of time getting baited around by that Meargh and I'd like to see if we can invest grudge actions into Wardstones, 1 action + 1 Fimir grudge + 1 Ulgu meargh grudge would auto complete it assuming that the math works as I hope Snorri is angry enough. And that would counter what appears to be the Fimirs best tactic thus far at countering Snorri.

However, more than anything this argument is kinda too late... We're going to be completing the Flamedrinker and Deep Gate Talisman's next turn, as far as filling Snorri's slots, theres only going to be one empty one.
Research trees are getting blocked at pt 7 though and we don't know if 7b is going to hit the same blockage nest. So I guess theres potentially a lot of time before we can advance the Rune of Waking Elements for the runestaff that seems to be the next desired item. The critfishing axe, A runestaff of challenge, false glory, greed could be a solution for enemies who don't want to fight in the ashstorm. But I'd prefer to fish for a combo improver if we're just doing quick and dirty.
 
The two real issues are firstly is finding things that are worth more than 1 AP but not worth 2. And secondly, convincing people that its a cool idea to invest in.
Quick and Dirty is rarely narratively satisfying. And I've previously attempted to make the case that just filling in our two empty equipment slots with any legendaries would be approximately the same as creating a new Mythical now at least as far as being a statstick goes (comparing other bonuses gets trickier).


As far as the master rune buffer goes. Yes and no. I want that so much, it looks like extra free power. However non of our problems right now are that SB or BA are not keeping up with their jobs.
Its not a gamechanger if we go from winning by a lot to Winning by a Lot. And the most recent march we spent a lot of time getting baited around by that Meargh and I'd like to see if we can invest grudge actions into Wardstones, 1 action + 1 Fimir grudge + 1 Ulgu meargh grudge would auto complete it assuming that the math works as I hope Snorri is angry enough. And that would counter what appears to be the Fimirs best tactic thus far at countering Snorri.

However, more than anything this argument is kinda too late... We're going to be completing the Flamedrinker and Deep Gate Talisman's next turn, as far as filling Snorri's slots, theres only going to be one empty one.
Research trees are getting blocked at pt 7 though and we don't know if 7b is going to hit the same blockage nest. So I guess theres potentially a lot of time before we can advance the Rune of Waking Elements for the runestaff that seems to be the next desired item. The critfishing axe, A runestaff of challenge, false glory, greed could be a solution for enemies who don't want to fight in the ashstorm. But I'd prefer to fish for a combo improver if we're just doing quick and dirty.
See, this has a critical, even crucial flaw.

Brynbar is a +Magic, -Enemy Magic, talisman. It happens to have the absolutely cracked buffs to Master Runes? Yes! It may sync with WTW? Yes, Possibly!

But that Ulgu Meargh fucked Snorri in the magic rounds.

Brynbar is a Win More in magic rounds.

It is, in fact, exactly what we want for this situation, and for how her mechanics work, and to shut down any future caster builds. So yes, it is very worth a large AP investment.

The Flamedrinking Talisman is, bluntly, a prototype build. It has no need for more than a Karstah AP. It's There(TM).
 
But that Ulgu Meargh fucked Snorri in the magic rounds.
It'd be helpful if someone more familiar with the combat stuff could double check everything, but from what I can see Snorri should have started with a +5 advantage after debuffs were considered but not conditionals (due to all the ???s floating about)
Runes/Magic: +45, +5 to Throng Runesmiths including other Runelords
Other: -35 to Enemy Casting -10 Zharr-a-Drakhazi = -45

Conditional: +5 a Round till +?? due to ???, +10 when ???
Magic: 40 Base +15 Choir +20 Sluagain Gowth +20 Coish Saile =+95

Magic Round 1
(-5 vs 0 after raising tiers)
30; 12; 14; 8 vs 32; 28; 26; 13
4 Losses

Magic Round 2
35; -4; 43; 42 vs 19; 44; 46; 37
2 Wins, 3 Losses
Should this be 2 wins 2 losses? There weren't 5 rolls, or does the -4 count as 2 losses?
Magic Round 3
27; 36; 44; 35 vs 12; 12; 38; 43
3 Wins, 1 Loss

Magic Round 4
34; 22; 8; -1 vs 35; 27; 29; 26
4 Losses

Combat Round 5
Meargh +5 from ???
15; 47; 30; 21 vs 30; 46; 29; 51
Tie

Magic Round 5
16; 41; 2; 1 vs 19; 12; 47; 10

Magic Round 6
45; 22; 9; 42 vs 23; 28; 9; 44
2 Wins, 2 Losses, 1 Tie.
Again, the 45 was a nat 50 that then suffered a -5 but still counted as a double win?
Magic Round 7
The +10 from no longer keeping the illusion up counts to her magic
23; 24; 24; 44 vs 69; 33; 35; 52
4 Losses
The magic rounds ended 10 - 1 - 23 by my count. Certainly a definite advantage to the Meargh with an average roll of 31.3 compared to Snorri's 24.7 but combat went 22 - 1 - 12 so nearly as in favour of Snorri as the magic was for the Meargh.
Snorri didn't take a single wound as far as I can see, so saying he got fucked in the magic rounds, feels like a stretch unless you'd be willing to say the reverse about the combat rounds as well.
The magic rounds where sometimes enough to pull the Mearghs ass out of the fire, each and every one of those magic round wins just drew out her loss, in my opinion thats a more accurate description.
And a drawn out fight is usually to Snorri's advantage given how his item damage and SB damage will gradually add up. Given that they were otherwise fairly matched I was just assuming that it was due to the extra effects that aren't numbered outside of the normal combat/magic rounds that gave the draw to the Meargh.

I guess you could argue that without the magic round to cancel out combat losses is what allowed her to draw, however I think she was just a combination of tanky with a high hp pool and with a 40% chance to escape every round, I don't think Snorri's damage per turn would be enough to kill her before she escaped if she had started hitting the eject button at turn 1. If she wasn't consistently winning magic rounds, she'd have just started to flee earlier and it still would have drawn.
 
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It'd be helpful if someone more familiar with the combat stuff could double check everything, but from what I can see Snorri should have started with a +5 advantage after debuffs were considered but not conditionals (due to all the ???s floating about)




Should this be 2 wins 2 losses? There weren't 5 rolls, or does the -4 count as 2 losses?









Again, the 45 was a nat 50 that then suffered a -5 but still counted as a double win?
The magic rounds ended 10 - 1 - 23 by my count. Certainly a definite advantage to the Meargh with an average roll of 31.3 compared to Snorri's 24.7 but combat went 22 - 1 - 12 so nearly as in favour of Snorri as the magic was for the Meargh.
Snorri didn't take a single wound as far as I can see, so saying he got fucked in the magic rounds, feels like a stretch unless you'd be willing to say the reverse about the combat rounds as well.
The magic rounds where sometimes enough to pull the Mearghs ass out of the fire, each and every one of those magic round wins just drew out her loss, in my opinion thats a more accurate description.
And a drawn out fight is usually to Snorri's advantage given how his item damage and SB damage will gradually add up. Given that they were otherwise fairly matched I was just assuming that it was due to the extra effects that aren't numbered outside of the normal combat/magic rounds that gave the draw to the Meargh.

I guess you could argue that without the magic round to cancel out combat losses is what allowed her to draw, however I think she was just a combination of tanky with a high hp pool and with a 40% chance to escape every round, I don't think Snorri's damage per turn would be enough to kill her before she escaped if she had started hitting the eject button at turn 1. If she wasn't consistently winning magic rounds, she'd have just started to flee earlier and it still would have drawn.
No, her rules were that if she won 5 magic rounds, she got to bugger off. She won 5, so she got to run, and she was consistently outstatting Snorri in it.

The lost magic rounds are directly why she got the run-away roll.

Ergo: Antimagic talisman.
 
Small #DiscordDump

Can Karstah do [Difficult] requests?

Yes. #Mechanics

Sorry everyone, I thought I answered this. I remember you guys asking a few months ago and I said I'd get back to you after thinking about it more, but someone PM'd me and asked because apperantly I never actually cleared this?

**Continued**
If u do the option that says let Snorri/Karstah decide. Otherwise I will respect the Runes chosen on the design and have the narrative reflect the intent.

To further clarify. Karstahs traits will appear on the part she does and same for Snorri. If Karstah does pt 2 then her traits would appear on the final product. Im not sure if Ill have this ability to switch between the two on one item for narrative reasons but we'll see.
#mechanics

Does the 40% chance on Master of the odd apply to rune compressions/understands like talismans does?
if it causes Understanding then yes, so Compressions would qualify for the 40% #Mechanics

Do left over khazagar actions roll over to the next turn like prods?
Yes. #Mechanics



There was also a discussion about the specifics of Karstah and being named heir that i'll try and summarize my responses to.

If we didn't take Karstah as our heir, who gets our stuff if we bit it?

Still Karstah most likely. Just because Snorri didn't recognize an adoption does not mean the Hold and society did not.

That sounds sketchy? Wanting to teach a foundling sounds like it necessitates adoption. Wouldn't that discourage it?

To teach Karstah necessitates sharing secrets you could and would not share with someone outside of a Runesmith Clan. This is normally a non-issue because most Masters don't look beyond Runesmith Clans when looking for apprentices. For the rare few that do, it does involve a formal adoption into the Clan like what happens for most other professions. Some Dwarfs treat the adoption as a legal formality, and if they have kids themselves they may need to state otherwise. But a Dwarf man usually doesn't have kids of his own most times, so this apprentice he has to adopt to teach becoming a Clan Member and his legal beneficiary is usually fine. Trickier for women, but thats part of the negotiation if they have kids.

So Karstah was adopted from the beginning?

Yes. I must reiterate that Snorri was being wilfully ignorant. The foundling part of apprentice hunt was an asked for addition, and I figured I could add it and this was the way that it works with what I recall telling the thread beforehand. Could I have been clearer? Yeah probably, can't recall how much I laid out from that time.

Assuming a World where Karstah was never adopted. Who would be our heir? Would it go to Snerra?
In the event you had no legally stated heir or children then your worldly possessions not earmarked to be part of your burial are taken by the Clan to be used for the good of future Winterhearth Clansdwarfs. Technically speaking, from that point the Clan decides who gets what, but practically speaking it would likely go to Snerra as she is the only other Runelord the Clan has and is your niece.

What if Karstah was adopted but not explicitly our heir, what then?
Depends. If Snorri wasn't the one to adopt her then it could be divied out, but its likely to go to Snerra.
If Karstah was adopted by you, as is Canon, then what I said earlier happens. Karstah is defacto heir and is given everything unless she wishes otherwise. Claiming her as your heir was more a personal admittance than a societal one.

And the willingness to teach her to actually be ready for the role too right?
For you? Yes. Ideas about being an heir and apprentice do vary a bit. Snorri's view is largely inherited from Yorri, and is notedly older and more committed than some other understandings.

Is Snerra still in Clan Winterhearth by the way?
Still being discussed in universe. To get nitty gritty, the Clan is negotiating hard to keep her. Its not common for Dwarfs to start Clans after they have kids, they plan to have em obviously, but yeah. Even then Jorri's circumstances make it an actual point of discussion as to whether Snerra comes with him, legally speaking, when he founds his new Clan.

As an aside because I don't know where to fit it.

Clan is vocation is family. What takes precedence is up to the people involved.

#Culture #Runesmiths

I guess you could argue that without the magic round to cancel out combat losses is what allowed her to draw, however I think she was just a combination of tanky with a high hp pool and with a 40% chance to escape every round, I don't think Snorri's damage per turn would be enough to kill her before she escaped if she had started hitting the eject button at turn 1. If she wasn't consistently winning magic rounds, she'd have just started to flee earlier and it still would have drawn.

The Meargh's plan, as Snorri can best infer, was not to kill you, It was to survive. She was stalling, so long as she didn't die in combat and you didn't notice her tricks she just had to survive 5 combat phases. And the Rolls ended up being in her favour. Assuming you figured out early enough or heck, rolled to select the right item, she would be dead otherwise most likely.
 
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Still being discussed in universe. To get nitty gritty, the Clan is negotiating hard to keep her. Its not common for Dwarfs to start Clans after they have kids, they plan to have em obviously, but yeah. Even then Jorri's circumstances make it an actual point of discussion as to whether Snerra comes with him, legally speaking, when he founds his new Clan.
makes a lot of sense; she is the most notorius person o the clan who isn't also an infamous radical; they need her in order to get the prestige.
 
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