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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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I feel the Runes overtaking me! It is a good pain!

Welcome to building items.
You are not late, you are incredibly early. The Gronti hasn't even been finalised down to Dragon yet, most of the plans in competition haven't been posted to the thread.

The weapon looks good. The three runes are strong on their own. The association of an overwhelming series of strikes cutting down the enemies attacks before they swing has some good basis to it. A fierce wind blowing attacks out of the way is a fine aesthetic. I think you might well get a combo out of it. Not sure if it is the one you listed, but I can see your path to it.
Not sure on your substitutions.
Kind of sceptical on your aesthetic for the chains. But then I would have used both weapon slots.

The Armour: A good set of runes we have used before with some nice new substitutions. Nice aesthetic would approve, currently all our substitutions are on combos we only ever made once, so it would be enlightening to see just how much change occurs between the two items due to it. Might not be making the most of the effect though, because a full adamant Gronti does not get tired, or damaged really taking away most of the boon of the Rune of unyielding and Fortitude as they stand.

The Gronti runes look nice, and will have a decent effect. They likely won't combo, just because Master Rune of Waking is difficult to get to combo.

The Wandering talisman fulfils a good role on keeping your Gronti in the battle, especially as being full adamant its nigh on indestructible and so containing it is easier than killing it.. Don't think loyalty is the best fit, just because Gronti going rogue doesn't seem to be a thing, It also likely won't combo.
I think the Dragons lung with Rune of silence might just end up with a non functional rune.

Ancestral Aegis the third. First I will say I enjoy the aesthetic of the wings you are going for, and agree it would be styling over the competition.
I don't follow your substitutions here honestly. Items are supposed to resonate with the runes they are working with. The rune of Valaya has a part on it for the Ancestor Rune page in the Faq which describes it as defensive, restorative, protective, morale and anti magic.
Voidstone has mostly associations with death, antimagic and demons and therefore only hits a single point.
With only a single point between them and vast differences I think that substitution will end up weakening the rune.

Dragonform talisman
I don't think we have a research path for the rune on this at all. It is a future rune in the sense that we know it exists on the tech tree, but I wouldn't even know where to begin researching it because it is so divergent from any rune we do have. Aesthetically and mechanically it is just really far away from all the runes.
I also don't think the combo would work here. Dwarves do not associate dragons with brotherhood or calm. They treat dragons as violent solitary beings and so the meaning is unlikely to come across in Khazalid how you want it to.

I will point out having said that, Rune of x (Any suitable upgrade material) has been accepted as a write in before. (Zharrgral)
It is probably safer than writing in an ingredient for every rune, and the standard ingredients are also often safe choices. Experimental ingredients can make things weaker as well as stronger.
 
Probably not a popular opinion but I think we should save the 'Capstone' Gronti until we finish Movement of Things. Of course that obviously also means putting actions into finishing the research tree as soon as possible

There was alot of support to putting more prods into putting movement of things in the past. So it's perfectly possible to campaign for more Movement research and there have been very active voices in the thread calling to push Movement up to the next tier for many more reasons than Golems especially since our Armor operates on Deep Magic. it is more popular than you think. But in the end thread politics and research agendas dictated the split of our last use of prods between movement and mind last turn.
 
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Welcome to building items.
You are not late, you are incredibly early. The Gronti hasn't even been finalised down to Dragon yet, most of the plans in competition haven't been posted to the thread.

The weapon looks good. The three runes are strong on their own. The association of an overwhelming series of strikes cutting down the enemies attacks before they swing has some good basis to it. A fierce wind blowing attacks out of the way is a fine aesthetic. I think you might well get a combo out of it. Not sure if it is the one you listed, but I can see your path to it.
Not sure on your substitutions.
Kind of sceptical on your aesthetic for the chains. But then I would have used both weapon slots.

The Armour: A good set of runes we have used before with some nice new substitutions. Nice aesthetic would approve, currently all our substitutions are on combos we only ever made once, so it would be enlightening to see just how much change occurs between the two items due to it. Might not be making the most of the effect though, because a full adamant Gronti does not get tired, or damaged really taking away most of the boon of the Rune of unyielding and Fortitude as they stand.

The Gronti runes look nice, and will have a decent effect. They likely won't combo, just because Master Rune of Waking is difficult to get to combo.

The Wandering talisman fulfils a good role on keeping your Gronti in the battle, especially as being full adamant its nigh on indestructible and so containing it is easier than killing it.. Don't think loyalty is the best fit, just because Gronti going rogue doesn't seem to be a thing, It also likely won't combo.
I think the Dragons lung with Rune of silence might just end up with a non functional rune.

Ancestral Aegis the third. First I will say I enjoy the aesthetic of the wings you are going for, and agree it would be styling over the competition.
I don't follow your substitutions here honestly. Items are supposed to resonate with the runes they are working with. The rune of Valaya has a part on it for the Ancestor Rune page in the Faq which describes it as defensive, restorative, protective, morale and anti magic.
Voidstone has mostly associations with death, antimagic and demons and therefore only hits a single point.
With only a single point between them and vast differences I think that substitution will end up weakening the rune.

Dragonform talisman
I don't think we have a research path for the rune on this at all. It is a future rune in the sense that we know it exists on the tech tree, but I wouldn't even know where to begin researching it because it is so divergent from any rune we do have. Aesthetically and mechanically it is just really far away from all the runes.
I also don't think the combo would work here. Dwarves do not associate dragons with brotherhood or calm. They treat dragons as violent solitary beings and so the meaning is unlikely to come across in Khazalid how you want it to.

I will point out having said that, Rune of x (Any suitable upgrade material) has been accepted as a write in before. (Zharrgral)
It is probably safer than writing in an ingredient for every rune, and the standard ingredients are also often safe choices. Experimental ingredients can make things weaker as well as stronger.
Good to know. And good feedback.

I think I mentioned something in the write up about the QM choosing whatever Snorri thinks works best for enhancements, and whatever combos the QM thinks appropriate; if I didn't I'll stick that in the next draft of the plan. A lot of what I wrote in the way of materials and combos was to help me keep my own thoughts straight, and will remove them if folks think "any suitable material" is a better option.

The chains for the weapons are almost entirely unnecessary - I stuck them in because I couldn't think of another way to make one set of runes cover 8 different "weapons" scattered across a very large Gronti.

I chose the armor combo I did because I wanted a hefty self-repair function on the Gronti and couldn't think of another way to get it without removing other combos I wanted.

The Rune of Loyalty is a complete WAG, and I'll replace it if someone has a better idea, as is the DragLung on the Rune of Silence. I wanted something to make the the Gronti slightly less obvious, and thus a bit less prone to being swarmed.

I'll go ahead and remove the Voidstones.

Concerning the Dragonform Rune, I'm fluffing the in-setting excuse as Snorri thinking, "No point in making a dragon if it can't do dragon things", and going from there. The other two runes are explicitly supposed to run counter to the usual dragon tendencies of being dicks; ie, that's not a bug, it's a feature, hopefully it actually works the way I want.
 
After an exams induced yatus I have returned!
@CanYouMeme migth I suggest we drop the dragon rune and put a master rune of fligth modified to allow a Gronti to, well fly?
Sure we can not make such a Rune yet, but there are multiple research avenues we could explore to make it rigth now, it will take a lot but you know, making a dragon gronti incapable of flyng to me sounds shoddy.
We could start with the master rune of fligth as an avenue for research, or we could start with the rune of featherweigth of Dolgi, I belive they could both lead to the same results.
Also maybe ad something for a firebreath? maybe the rune of dragons do allows a fire breath?
 
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Armor (12 bars) - plates attached to the Gronti in a fashion similar to Branakroki armor. Inscribed with Master Rune of Unyielding, Rune of Fortitude, Rune of Stone (Mountainsouled Combo), requires minimum of Stonehorn's Horn, will be enhanced with Elder Thundertusk's Tusk (Unyielding) + Shard Wyrm's Brain (Rune of Fortitude) + Pure Gromril (Rune of Stone)
This runic combo is good enough for Snorri, it's good enough for a Gronti. Shard Wyrm's Brain is listed as an upgrade for Troll's Stomach, so assuming it fulfills a similar role means it goes to Fortitude. Gromril for Stone, no more to be said there. The Thundertusk's Tusk is called a direct upgrade to the Stonehorn's Horn.
No not really
The armour is made unbreakable, the user's durability more akin to a Gronti than a regular dwarf. Their body and mind are unaffected by fatigue or fear, most damage they suffer is often temporary, barring truly ruinous wounds, and painless
Most of those changes are actual downgrades from being made of Adamant. They're already more durable than a normal Gronti, and even further beyond "More like a Gronti than a Dwarf".
The only benefit we could potentially get here is Regeneration and I doubt a Gronti can benefit from this and even if they can, we'd be better off making a devoted Rune combo to it rather than something that does it incidental.

Then Gronti doesn't need armor, its already near indestructible, so if we're dead set on wasting effort on this we should make an offensive armour combo: MPyrestrike, Flameward, Embers. and make it the most burny Gronti in the world.
Or we do an anti magic combo, because shenanigans like Pit of Shades which don't destroy the Gronti but would dump it somewhere else is about the only way to sidestep its inherent durability.
The Master Rune of Dragonform will require research, as it does not currently exist.
...
How many actions do you think this research represents?
To me, it sounds like we need to create an item to open the research, then at least a combo compression for a minimum of 8 (2 for the item +6 for compress) and possibly if this requires a tree or we don't get the combo/research in a single item then we can probably double that.

And runesmiths don't just collaborate on research. Lorna has her own stuff she wants to research and wouldn't appreciate Snorri coopting her to be a lab assistant. Much less 4 Runelords tier ones, of whom 2 hardly know Lorna.

Talismanic Rune (3 Bars) - fluffed as an enhanced dual spinal ridge. Inscribed with; Master Rune of Wandering, Rune of Loyalty (may require research to make it work for Hold and Dawi in general), Rune of Silence, requires Pegasus Heart, enhanced with Radiant Pegasus Heart (Wandering) + Oathgold (Loyalty) + whatever works best (Silence)
This entire array is devoted to the fact that a giant fuck-off adamant Gronti in the shape of a dragon is going to be a pain in the ass to fit through tight spaces. The Rune of Loyalty may require research to make it work properly for Hold, King, and Dawi as opposed to one dwarf. The Crest Feather is just a straight upgrade, Oathgold works for loyalty, and I'm not quite sure what a Dragon's Lung will do for a Rune of Silence but it seems interesting.
I don't think Loyalty will work the way you want? How its most likely to work is that the spinal ridge wouldn't work if removed from the dragon.
Its not going to change the function of the Gronti.
 
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The only benefit we could potentially get here is Regeneration and I doubt a Gronti can benefit from this and even if they can
Reminder we have a sub branch of movement of things to look into making Gronti like Mhorni (i.e. mutable and capable of healing). And there's no reason gronti can't regenerate with the appropriate rune, and one of our apprentices has shown an interest in the rune of repair. That was something people noticed when first talking about the dragon gronti; one of our apprentices is (likely) working on a method of flight and another the rune of repair.

And for the record, mountain souled is as much about the deep magic tap as it is healing/durability when people have talked about using it on a gronti. Admittedly we're reaching the point where we will get a deep magic tap rune to slap on the gronti though so…
 
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Reminder we have a sub branch of movement of things to look into making Gronti like Mhorni (i.e. mutable and capable of healing). And there's no reason gronti can't regenerate with the appropriate rune, and one of our apprentices has shown an interest in the rune of repair. That was something people noticed when first talking about the dragon gronti; one of our apprentices is (likely) working on a method of flight and another the rune of repair.

And for the record, mountain souled is as much about the deep magic tap as it is healing/durability when people have talked about using it on a gronti. Admittedly we're reaching the point where we will get a deep magic tap rune to slap on the gronti though so…
Dude... You literally cut off the half of the sentence where I acknowledge that if we wanted it to repair, there would be alternate better paths.
The only benefit we could potentially get here is Regeneration and I doubt a Gronti can benefit from this and even if they can, we'd be better off making a devoted Rune combo to it rather than something that does it incidental.
Yes repair is a potential way to get regeneration on a gronti but its not the rune I was critiquing.... What the hell are you talking about?
Besides repair is extremely far from being able to induce a regeneration effect, atm its only cosmetic damage gets fixed.
It'll get there eventually but probably two or three steps into the Mending of Things so likely 9+12 actions or so in the future.
If we're waiting for apprentices to develop it then we also have to deal whatever limitations they apply to our use and spread of it and its not going to occur for 20-30 turns after an unknown point based on Featherweight.
Deep magic is a seperate concern, canyoumeme said if Mountainsoul was good enough for Snorri its good enough for the Gronti. We did not develop mountainsoul because we were expecting deep magic to be tapped, its still unclear to what extent the deep magic effects are from the use of the Greedy Trolls hear, therefore I discussed the reasons and effects listed on the combo.
If you want to make that argument, make it. Don't just imply someone else made it.
 
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Good to know. And good feedback.

I think I mentioned something in the write up about the QM choosing whatever Snorri thinks works best for enhancements, and whatever combos the QM thinks appropriate; if I didn't I'll stick that in the next draft of the plan. A lot of what I wrote in the way of materials and combos was to help me keep my own thoughts straight, and will remove them if folks think "any suitable material" is a better option.

The chains for the weapons are almost entirely unnecessary - I stuck them in because I couldn't think of another way to make one set of runes cover 8 different "weapons" scattered across a very large Gronti.

I chose the armor combo I did because I wanted a hefty self-repair function on the Gronti and couldn't think of another way to get it without removing other combos I wanted.

The Rune of Loyalty is a complete WAG, and I'll replace it if someone has a better idea, as is the DragLung on the Rune of Silence. I wanted something to make the the Gronti slightly less obvious, and thus a bit less prone to being swarmed.

I'll go ahead and remove the Voidstones.

Concerning the Dragonform Rune, I'm fluffing the in-setting excuse as Snorri thinking, "No point in making a dragon if it can't do dragon things", and going from there. The other two runes are explicitly supposed to run counter to the usual dragon tendencies of being dicks; ie, that's not a bug, it's a feature, hopefully it actually works the way I want.

Wandering Talisman. Possible replacements for the loyalty rune.
Rune of Speed?. Wandering, Speed, Silence. Basically more speed and hoping it stacks. Unhindered by the terrain the monster moves swiftly and stalks its prey. It would play on the same idea of escaping the confines of any attempts to bind or ensnare the dragon, while also allowing it to increase its kill count.
Rune of Shadow? Wandering, Shadow, Silence. Unseen and unheard the monster stalks its prey. As it is primarily melee based this would force enemies in close combat to be stuck fighting an enemy they can't hurt and cannot see. Probably not as useful for aboveground fighting if just because you know it is in that region of the battlefield. Absolutely vicious for tunnel fighting if it sees it, which your one is intended to be able to do.
Rune of Deflection? Wandering, Deflection, Silence. Muting interactions with the world. Deflections pulls energy from blows against the wielder, just as Wandering reduces the presence of terrain, and silence pulls energy from sound. Don't have a pithy sentence to use for it off the top of my head. Will think of one.
Rune of Bangs? A sonicboom type rune that disorients enemies around the dragon. Would be good for anti swarming effects like you wanted, but does go outside theme for other runes. Only way it would combo is if it pulled the energy from the sound it muffled to charge up the sonicboom and I don't think wandering really allows for that association. That said it is a good rune for its purpose.
Might well try and look for others again at some point.

Wanting a self repair on the armour is fine. as Cursix has pointed out above it also has deep magic associations so go for it.
 
Why not smth like Ferocity, Berserk or smth similar?
Hell, for one of its weapons, why not go with smth like, say, Master Rune of Currents, Rune of the Ram, and Rune of Impact (or Might) to evoke the strength of a Dragon? An unblockable attack, swift and sharp, and strikes harder than it has any right to.

As for the Talisman, I envision the Dragon Gronti as a surface fighter, so smth like Master Rune of the Relentless (Compressed Relentless Combo) would be a good start.

For Armor? We know of the Zharrkhazad combo, so might as well Compress it and add it with two other Runes to evoke the fury of a burning dragon. Shame we don't have MR Dragonbreath, but oh well.

Hmm, might want to consider getting gold or silver, for aesthetic purposes. By which I mean, the adamant scales of the Dragon Gronti will be so lifelike that when it shifts, it will reveal flashes of gold and silver... ? Or smth. Not sure how to word it.

Needs a Master Rune of Thungni on one of its Panoply too, because why the fuck not? Hell, there's likely some sort of interaction between the Thungni and Smednir Ancestor Rune, too. It's one thing that our Makerstrike Combo features the Runes of Thungni and Smednir; it's another to see how the Master Rune of Thungni and the Rune of Smednir synergizes with our Rune of Forged Eye.

Means that it's likely possible that the Prosthesis Runes can actually synergize with other Runes to form a Combo, but considering their themes, it's likely an Ancestor Rune is required, and the purpose of the prosthesis be clear- like, a Rune of Grimnir + Rune of Forged Limb + smth else would work well on a prosthesis forged for a Warrior.
 
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Dude... You literally cut off the half of the sentence where I acknowledge that if we wanted it to repair, there would be alternate better paths.

Yes repair is a potential way to get regeneration on a gronti but its not the rune I was critiquing.... What the hell are you talking about?
Besides repair is extremely far from being able to induce a regeneration effect, atm its only cosmetic damage gets fixed.
It'll get there eventually but probably two or three steps into the Mending of Things so likely 9+12 actions or so in the future.
If we're waiting for apprentices to develop it then we also have to deal whatever limitations they apply to our use and spread of it and its not going to occur for 20-30 turns after an unknown point based on Featherweight.
Deep magic is a seperate concern, canyoumeme said if Mountainsoul was good enough for Snorri its good enough for the Gronti. We did not develop mountainsoul because we were expecting deep magic to be tapped, its still unclear to what extent the deep magic effects are from the use of the Greedy Trolls hear, therefore I discussed the reasons and effects listed on the combo.
If you want to make that argument, make it. Don't just imply someone else made it.
Mountainsouled would work fine for a regen rune, it already regenerates inorganic material, and the armour basically turns Snorri into a regenerating gronti. Yes, it would be nice to have a dedicated rune for it, or have a new gronti type that repairs naturally, but mountainsouled would work fine. As for deep magic, it likely would work similar to our current armour if not the same level due to the fact that what we make while wearing the armour benefits from deep magic innately which would probably serve as a lesser effect of the heart. Needs testing though, I don't think we've made mountainsouled since getting the armour, and we also have to test the effects or forging while wearing a cloak with a piece of the first storm of magic in it.

It's even possible mountainsouled could make Gronti slightly more organic with the healing aspect in the same way it makes Snorri more inorganic, as a way to look at it. Or rather than "organic" "alive" might be the better term.
 
That's a no brainer, it's just getting people to agree on compressing it between adamant, movement of things, and whatever other research or jobs people want done over the next 5 turns or so before we make the gronti.
 
Mountainsouled would work fine for a regen rune, it already regenerates inorganic material, and the armour basically turns Snorri into a regenerating gronti. Yes, it would be nice to have a dedicated rune for it, or have a new gronti type that repairs naturally, but mountainsouled would work fine. As for deep magic, it likely would work similar to our current armour if not the same level due to the fact that what we make while wearing the armour benefits from deep magic innately which would probably serve as a lesser effect of the heart. Needs testing though, I don't think we've made mountainsouled since getting the armour, and we also have to test the effects or forging while wearing a cloak with a piece of the first storm of magic in it.

It's even possible mountainsouled could make Gronti slightly more organic with the healing aspect in the same way it makes Snorri more inorganic, as a way to look at it. Or rather than "organic" "alive" might be the better term.
We don't actually know that.
Snorri's blood turning into magma when wearing BA shows that he still has blood, and regeneration may still work the same way as biological healing, just with rocks. A Gronti never had biology, we don't know that it will get one or if the biology is a required component.
Thats why I said
I doubt a Gronti can benefit from this
We can't prove its impossible until we test it. But if things could just be fixed by putting them in the armour I'd be surprised.

Secondly, the BA Mountain souled combo is a tier above whatever the next armour combo would be because BA used the Greedy Trolls heart. So its also possible that BA could pull it off but the Gronti armour wouldn't have the power to manage it.

If our current equipment is enough to make up the difference in ingredient tier between a t4 and t5, then the thread will spend the rest of the story doing nothing but upgrading crafting tools. Bethesda alchemy loop go burrr :p
Don't underestimate T5's.

I do agree that making a Gronti more organic is likely to improve the Gronti's behaviour (its actually been my argument for gronti combos), however I don't think that giving a Gronti equipment can manage this, I think it would have to be baked into the Gronti combo.
It just sounds like we're breaking the rule of form to think that we could improve the behaviour of another rune by putting it near another rune..... This is well into Durins Consternation, I don't know we're going to get anything conscructive until more tests are done. Best I can say is that combo minimums are 3 items so we'd need to swap at least one other of the Gronti's items to a life themed one before I would think an effect like that is possible.
 
Well, some of the most interesting Armor-based combos seem to be centered on the usage of the Rune of Fortitude; see Karstah's Steelskin Combo, and our Mountainsouled Combo.
 
No not really

Most of those changes are actual downgrades from being made of Adamant. They're already more durable than a normal Gronti, and even further beyond "More like a Gronti than a Dwarf".
The only benefit we could potentially get here is Regeneration and I doubt a Gronti can benefit from this and even if they can, we'd be better off making a devoted Rune combo to it rather than something that does it incidental.

Then Gronti doesn't need armor, its already near indestructible, so if we're dead set on wasting effort on this we should make an offensive armour combo: MPyrestrike, Flameward, Embers. and make it the most burny Gronti in the world.
Or we do an anti magic combo, because shenanigans like Pit of Shades which don't destroy the Gronti but would dump it somewhere else is about the only way to sidestep its inherent durability.
As long as we get a self-repair function that doesn't overly fuck the other stuff, I literally do not care what the armor runic combo is. As soon as someone suggests a decent plan, I'll edit that one in.

However, it's worth remembering that runic effects change depending on the context of other runes on the same item and whatever other items a user is using, so your basis for saying it would be a downgrade to the Gronti is flimsy at best. Especially since, IIRC, Mountainsouled is one of the Deep Magic trio Snorri uses right now to create Mhorni. The same Deep Magic that Snorri thinks improves Gronti function.

Anti magic is already covered by the banner rune set in my plan. More offense can be covered by a second set of weapon runes, since that's a thing we can do but I left out for the sake of simplicity while this gets hammered out.

And runesmiths don't just collaborate on research. Lorna has her own stuff she wants to research and wouldn't appreciate Snorri coopting her to be a lab assistant. Much less 4 Runelords tier ones, of whom 2 hardly know Lorna.
I'm going to put this bluntly; I absolutely fucking despise with an incandescent passion what you wrote here, and some of that is bleeding through.

My plan explicitly says, and I'm going to size this up a bit for emphasis;

"In the interests of saving time and materials, building relationships, and generally making this Drak Gronti fucking amazing, it should be a collaborative effort involving the Runelords of Kraka Drak AS MUCH AS THEY ARE WILLING"

It is a common failure of questors to read an offer of collaboration on a subject made in good faith as equals with no strings attached, and somehow a mirage between computer screen and eyeball transmutes that into "browbeating someone else into a position of inferiority." (Read, "lab assistant")

I do not understand how that happens. Grimnir's giant hairy ballsack, I even had plans to name the Dragonform rune after Lorna if we went through with it.

As for collaboration on making a new rune, the questors in this thread voted to create the Khazagar. Why the fuck shouldn't we try to collaborate in making a brand new never seen before Gronti? The Dawi have no issue with different Runesmiths collaborating on runing their Holds, so precedent for working together in a single project is there.

I don't think Loyalty will work the way you want? How its most likely to work is that the spinal ridge wouldn't work if removed from the dragon.
Its not going to change the function of the Gronti.
I stated in my reply to @Luxon that the loyalty rune was a complete WAG, intended to further bind the Dragonform rune. If sombody's got a better suggestion, I'll use it. Just like how I've already edited my plan to account for some of Luxon's suggestions.

How many actions do you think this research represents?
To me, it sounds like we need to create an item to open the research, then at least a combo compression for a minimum of 8 (2 for the item +6 for compress) and possibly if this requires a tree or we don't get the combo/research in a single item then we can probably double that.
I don't think it will take nearly as many as you think. Because between Lorna, Yorri, Snerra, Karstah, and Snorri's Productivity procs, we have a lot of options to cut down on the research time.

Hell, if you think this will take too much of Snorri's time, we can pay Lorna to do it while we work on other stuff.
After an exams induced yatus I have returned!
@CanYouMeme migth I suggest we drop the dragon rune and put a master rune of fligth modified to allow a Gronti to, well fly?
Sure we can not make such a Rune yet, but there are multiple research avenues we could explore to make it rigth now, it will take a lot but you know, making a dragon gronti incapable of flyng to me sounds shoddy.
We could start with the master rune of fligth as an avenue for research, or we could start with the rune of featherweigth of Dolgi, I belive they could both lead to the same results.
Also maybe ad something for a firebreath? maybe the rune of dragons do allows a fire breath?
An interesting idea - my plan still has a weapon slot unused because I was trying to enforce simplicity somewhere in the plan. Using the second weapon slot for a Master Rune of Flight and two Runes of Fire could do some fun stuff. Not something I'm confident in though, given that 3 bars of weapon vs 56 bars of other is not a good ratio for making the whole thing fly.

Wandering Talisman. Possible replacements for the loyalty rune.
Rune of Shadow? Wandering, Shadow, Silence. Unseen and unheard the monster stalks its prey. As it is primarily melee based this would force enemies in close combat to be stuck fighting an enemy they can't hurt and cannot see. Probably not as useful for aboveground fighting if just because you know it is in that region of the battlefield. Absolutely vicious for tunnel fighting if it sees it, which your one is intended to be able to do.
I like this combo, since it shores up the anti-swarm worries I have. I'll keep this in mind and incoherently grumble over it some more :p
 
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As long as we get a self-repair function that doesn't overly fuck the other stuff, I literally do not care what the armor runic combo is. As soon as someone suggests a decent plan, I'll edit that one in.

However, it's worth remembering that runic effects change depending on the context of other runes on the same item and whatever other items a user is using, so your basis for saying it would be a downgrade to the Gronti is flimsy at best. Especially since, IIRC, Mountainsouled is one of the Deep Magic trio Snorri uses right now to create Mhorni. The same Deep Magic that Snorri thinks improves Gronti function.

Anti magic is already covered by the banner rune set in my plan. More offense can be covered by a second set of weapon runes, since that's a thing we can do but I left out for the sake of simplicity while this gets hammered out.
Do you have a particular argument for why any of the items on this Gronti are especially likely to combo? Particularly in a way that enables the regeneration function?
I think I've laid out my position in the response with Cursix, are we at the agree to disagree: come back when more testing is done point or do you have an argument that they didn't make?

To be clear though, no I don't think it would downgrade the gronti. I think Snorri's durability would be a downgrade to the Gronti. Therefore anything that the Rune could offer would be a marginal increase at best. Wheras a offensive or antimagic focused armour would be more significant improvements on areas that the Gronti is potentially lacking.
Seriously, you mentioned you had some swarm worries, please consider the Offensive option: Inferno (more potent pyrestrike, surrounds the user with flames on command), embers (attacks are responded too by spraying fire at, should synergise with inferno to be far more potent) , flameward (covered by heatproof flim, this one is more of a strech I'm looking to reduce any negative of regularly fireing off the effect and hopefully getting a permenant toggle on). How would a swarm possibly get through that?


Yeah you do have an anti magic banner. And I still believe that even without armour or Mountainsoul it would be more threatened by magic than it would be by physical attacks.
.
5. You can think of stuff that could destroy the latter, but not the former.
Don't underestimate the physical durability of Gronti's, Snorri couldn't think about anything that could break it when we where just considering plating it with Adamant, now the design is pure Adamant.

I'm going to put this bluntly; I absolutely fucking despise with an incandescent passion what you wrote here, and some of that is bleeding through.

My plan explicitly says, and I'm going to size this up a bit for emphasis;

"In the interests of saving time and materials, building relationships, and generally making this Drak Gronti fucking amazing, it should be a collaborative effort involving the Runelords of Kraka Drak AS MUCH AS THEY ARE WILLING"

It is a common failure of questors to read an offer of collaboration on a subject made in good faith as equals with no strings attached, and somehow a mirage between computer screen and eyeball transmutes that into "browbeating someone else into a position of inferiority." (Read, "lab assistant")

I do not understand how that happens. Grimnir's giant hairy ballsack, I even had plans to name the Dragonform rune after Lorna if we went through with it.

As for collaboration on making a new rune, the questors in this thread voted to create the Khazagar. Why the fuck shouldn't we try to collaborate in making a brand new never seen before Gronti? The Dawi have no issue with different Runesmiths collaborating on runing their Holds, so precedent for working together in a single project is there.
I don't care if you despise it.
As far as reasons for getting involved in this research all you've actually offered Lorna is that we name the rune after her... And that wasn't even in the original post.
And its taking her out of her own projects to help ours, I'd be willing to see this as a collaboration of equals if it is related to whatever she's researching atm, however unless something is done to make that a more equitable trade it does feel like
Creating the Khazagar is intended as a step towards creating the runesmithing culture where this sort of collaboration is common, that should make it clear its not currently common.
Considering when you're making estimates of how much work it will take based on the assumption she will accept, how about you lay out the plan for if she doesn't want her name attached to this incredibly radical and politically charged movement and she isn't willing to help, and what you think it would be plausible to offer to get her involved...
 
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In the regards of antimagic, the elf have a nice spell called arcane unforging, it rips magic out of an object, it can and does destroy runic stuff.
Pits of shades sends the target to another dimension, necromancer can age something so much to make it crumble to dust, dwellers of the deep makes another dimensional hole that drags you in, the metal lore can wreak absolute havoc on a gronti, the maw can appear and eat you, the dreadreth thirtinth can turn our gronti in a skaven slave.
I think we should invest a lot in antimagic, a body and an armour of adamant would be enough to stop almost anything, the few thing that would damage it that aren't spell are a lot rarer that a wizard simply being not dispelled .
Still some extra protection in the form of regen or durability would be nice.
I am not really worried about it being swarmed, a thousand goblin aren't going to hurt an adamant construct.
@CanYouMeme I do not think that a rune in a weapon would allow the gronti the ability to fly, it would probably have to be in the body, or the armour or a talisman or a banner, since you know the banner are the wings, sure we will have to found suck a rune, but you know it can be researched.
O yea I forgot, purple sun turns you to stone, there are a lot of magic effect that just exist to chek if you are either quick enough to dodge or capable of dispelling it.
 
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How bout having a Talisman with either MR Valaya and the Rune of Thungni, or one with the MR Thungni and the Rune of Valaya? Because Snerra's Set Combo has the following line: "By Valaya's skills the magic is broken, by Thungni's gift it is repurposed"
 
I mean it would work for a set combo, but we do miss Snerra third rune if I am rigth?
I would like to try something like rune of wallaya spelleating and spellbinding.
You not necessary conceptualy difficult, just a massive fuck of to magic.
 
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I am not really worried about it being swarmed, a thousand goblin aren't going to hurt an adamant construct.
Kinda yeah. I don't see them damaging it, and even restraining it so it can't move without actually causing damage is probably more in the realm of multiple mid tier minotaurs and the like than a skaven swarm. But depending on its armament they could really bog it down.
I'm much more worried about an Archmage or Lord of Change with prep time and a plan, than any number of beastmen minions, however even if the Gronti won't lose to the swarm, that doesn't mean that we want it to spend time fighting the swarm when enemy heroes might be killing dwarves.

How bout having a Talisman with either MR Valaya and the Rune of Thungni, or one with the MR Thungni and the Rune of Valaya? Because Snerra's Set Combo has the following line: "By Valaya's skills the magic is broken, by Thungni's gift it is repurposed"
Honestly we've got enough anti magic runes that we'll have an easy time coming up with a idea, its really a question how we want it to function.
MGrungni in the AA combo has nothing to do with antimagic it handles the deflection, the actual anti magic comes from the minor runes ( Valaya and Spellbreaking.) so we have a lot of flexibility
So something like MSpite, Spellbreaking, Spelleating would be a riff off of the Conversion and Glittering Beacon combos, where instead of providing a additional shield against further attacks/ improved dispels, we throw the spell back at the caster with even more force. Useful if we want to make sure that enemy magic users only get one attempt.
Or if we want maximum protection MValaya, Spellbreaking, Warding. MValaya seems to be the only dedicated anti magic rune at a Master level, spellbreaking is one of our most comboed runes and seems to be the big no to magic in contrast to spell eating which repurposes incoming magic to another use, Warding isn't a rune we often use in combos (I think the only time we've voted on it was the Steel shanks) but soulcake uses it a fair amount and it shows up in Adamant Maker and Hearthward combos so its able to deal with pretty high energy situaitons.

Then we can try and consider more exotic combos like Mvalaya Ineptitude Mindfog, probably a better Banner than talisman but one designed to cause enemy casters to miscast.

Oh and we don't have MThungni btw.
 
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The rune of spell eating does have the advantage to make the caster forget the spell in tt, maybe combined with the rune that gives gronti a burst of energy will give more energy or lessen the time of low energy.
Fly with one weapon dedicated to clean mob is probably all that is neded so our gronti can focus on monsters and heroes.
 
I'll just add my voice as one of those "biggest threat to an adamant Gronti is magic" crowd.

Reminder from way, way waaaaaaay back when we first made it in a Smelter and then proceeded to ignore further research to it since Turn 17:

- Adamant Properties:
- The Metal is harder than pure Gromril, yet less dense. Melts at double the temperature of Pure Gromril, but requires far higher temperatures to actually manufacture.
- Runes must be inscribed on it when it is just below melting temperature. Once inscribed the Adamant hardens even further, becoming resistant to most magic, and cannot be smelted down again save through the use of the Adamant Smelter.
- Runes on Adamant are roughly half again stronger than on Pure Gromril. How the effect manifests is dependent on the Rune, but it's generally more potent than it is versatile.
- It does not break, you don't know what could shatter it outside of forces whose strength would boggle the mind.

Harder and lighter than Pure Gromril. So strong that Runes must be inscribed when it is still close to melting point. Inherent Anti-Magic resistance, to a degree.
And we as Snorri doesn't rightly know what would properly break finished and cooled down Adamant, 'outside of forces whose strength would boggle the mind'. So probably not even standard artillery stands a chance.

Battle-Magic spells cast by sufficiently powerful Sorcerers hopped on Chaos juice come to mind. Or similar scale magics used to just BFR it, immobilize it, or do some weird shenanigans to it.

In terms of strenght of weapons or such.... well, it would be a Bloodthirster sized gronti. It gets up to running speed, what exactly short of something as strong as a castle wall is going to stop it? 99% of enemies will be wheat to the harvest in front of it, no matter what it is armed with.
So I can see arguments for maximizing its AoE potential against weaker enemies, make it an anti-army optimized gronti.
Or maximizing its single target potential, making it an anti-champion optimized gronti.
 
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