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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

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So, I haven't looked through all of the pages of the quest, and so I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but have people considered the synergy between the Greedy One's Heart and the Master Rune of Animation/Walking? The Master Rune of Animation/Walking requires a Troll's heart as a necessary ingredient and we have a T5 Troll heart in the form of the Greedy One's Heart.

That seems like it could make for a disgusting combination if the research is put into it.
 
Thor's Twin said:
So, I haven't looked through all of the pages of the quest, and so I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but have people considered the synergy between the Greedy One's Heart and the Master Rune of Animation/Walking? The Master Rune of Animation/Walking requires a Troll's heart as a necessary ingredient and we have a T5 Troll heart.

That seems like it could make for a disgusting combination if the research is put into it.
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Yes, it's come up many, many times rest assured. @BungieONI started the idea.
 
Abhishek M said:
This is also waaaaay before -2500. It's probably closer to -8000.
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I was talking more about the first appearances of the Greenskins.

soulcake said:
Nope. Time of Woes is the earliest date I could find for their arrival when they migrated westward. Unless someone can point me to sources of Greenskins near and around the dwarf kingdoms before that time.
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But, actually, -2,500 I.C isn't even the earliest point. The Orcs were attacking High Elf colonies in the Old World two centuries after Bel Shanaar's election.


In the two hundred and fifty-fifth year of Bel Shanaar's reign, Malekith quit Nagarythe as part of a mighty fleet bound for the east, to the unconquered wilderness of Elthin Arvan.



'Bless Asuryan!' the womenfolk cried, and hugged Malekith and his warriors with tears streaming down their cheeks.

'Be quiet!' snapped Malekith to quell their effusive thanks and sobbing. 'What evil passes here?'

'Orcs!' they shrieked in reply. 'The city is besieged!'
 
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Chief18753 said:
I was talking more about the first appearances of the Greenskins.


But, actually, -2,500 I.C isn't even the earliest point. The Orcs were attacking High Elf colonies in the Old World two centuries after Bel Shanaar's election.


'Bless Asuryan!' the womenfolk cried, and hugged Malekith and his warriors with tears streaming down their cheeks.

'Be quiet!' snapped Malekith to quell their effusive thanks and sobbing. 'What evil passes here?'

'Orcs!' they shrieked in reply. 'The city is besieged!'
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According to a novel by Gav Thorpe at least. And the novels always conflict in one way or another. Not to mention how he used his trilogy as a setup for the End Times, if retroactively.

It conflicts with too many other sources.
 
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EVA-Saiyajin said:
According to a novel by Gav Thorpe at least. And the novels always conflict in one way or another. Not to mention how he used his trilogy as a setup for the End Times, if retroactively.

It conflicts with too many other sources.
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GW and BL putting out a book that conflicts with other books?

Why that couldn't be. We all know about their great and enormous respect for continuity and accuracy of information. :V
 
Thor's Twin said:
So, I haven't looked through all of the pages of the quest, and so I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but have people considered the synergy between the Greedy One's Heart and the Master Rune of Animation/Walking? The Master Rune of Animation/Walking requires a Troll's heart as a necessary ingredient and we have a T5 Troll heart in the form of the Greedy One's Heart.

That seems like it could make for a disgusting combination if the research is put into it.
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Yep! As Eva mentioned I formulated the proposal concretely though looking back it looks like others were postulating the idea before me. Here's the quote where I formulate it.

BungieONI said:
I'm actually considering something.

Okay so build it big. Really really big as a base, carved from the stone deep within the mountain heart of Kraka Drakk, and clad it in Adamant if we can, which is already insane because that's a T4 material. So make it as big as is practical to clad.

Then use The Greedy Heart as a core and try and synergize off it as much as possible with the Master Rune of Awakening, The Rune of Might, and the Rune of Fortitude in part because Snorri has said outright that he can make a really good one with the Greedy Heart. As in here:
soulcake said:
[ ] The Greedy One's Heart: This thing has been transferred to a warded container because you don't really trust anything that came from that thing. You're all but certain you could make a truly potent Rune of Healing or Fortitude with this thing, but perhaps there are other uses for it you could come up with that a battery of tests could reveal.[Cost: 4 actions.] Student of the Odd will proc
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The Rune of Fortitude also has this interesting fluff text:
Rune of Fortitude
- It is rumoured that armour bearing this rune eventually becomes sentient. Whilst no Runesmith has ever confirmed this rumour, they make no attempts to deny it either.

Now that's from the wiki so I'm not sure how verifyable it is, but we know for a solid Fact that Snorri thinks he can make a really good Rune of Fortitude with it regardless of any possible sapience.

The Master Rune of Awakening in my mind has a statement of "Awaken, Stone, and join us." and the Rune of Might is "Strike with the mightiest blows" and then the Rune of Fortitude seems to be about "Withstand any blow undaunted with unbending vitality"

So mix that together and it might be "Awaken, Stone and join us as we gift you with the mightiest blows and unbending, undaunted vitality".
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Basically, a Golem has a decent amount of support just from our surface level estimation based on these factors: We know that the Master Rune of Awakening requires a Troll Heart for its use, so natively the Greedy Heart as a Troll Heart should have a lot of power with a Master Rune of Awakening. Additionally Snorri outright says in the research option that he thinks he can make really good Runes of Healing and Runes of Fortitude with the Greedy Heart, which makes sense due to its impossible vitality of still beating after being removed from its mortal body and its incredible regenerative properties.

The idea behind this proposal which got labeled Ymir, is outlined in the quote but basically boils down to these thoughts: Trolls are Mighty creatures with great Fortitude and the Master Rune of Awakening requires a Troll Heart. So the hope is that by using a combo of the Master Rune of Awakening, Rune of Might and Rune of Fortitude to create a very powerful synergy on the T5 Golem.

The catch of doing a T5 with the Heart in my mind is that there's legwork we have to do to really support it properly, namely projects are going to have individualized research requirements and T4 and T3 ingredients like Adamant and Silver Wutroth will likely be necessary as supporting ingredients for the Heart as a core. There's quite a few projects like, a super healing banner to give the whole Hold a healing effect like Trolls which I'm particularly fond of though I can't remember who came up with that one, or some kind of perpetual engine for the Hold's industry as @bird yells proposed.

  • The universal bit of leg work we have to do is studying the heart itself, for any project using it. We can't use it in a project until we do that.

For the Golem, there's a couple of steps that would need to be taken before we could create it according to my proposal:

  • Since I want to plate it in Adamant we need to be able to produce Adamant reliably. That means finishing Rune Metal part 4 at least, if part 4 gives reliable Adamant manufacture, which seems likely.

  • We'd also need to study the Movement of Things research. That should help with understanding and improving upon Golems in general, ala Rune Metal is my hope.

That's the research stuff and we're only almost to the Rune Metal requirement after 90 years since we got the heart.
  • Then we have to make infrastructure to support making that amount of Adamant/Make enough Adamant to plate a big ass Golem, probably Ogre or bigger in dimensions. Big enough to comfortably use as a mount for Snorri. This might be mixed with completing Rune Metal part 4, but I'm going to assume no.

  • Then we have to get whatever supporting ingredients we think we need. Troll parts are effectively infinite considering where we live, plus Pure Gromril. There might be others, but those are the main ones.

  • Then we have to make the Golem itself, which we know is 4 actions. One to take up part one of the request, 3 to actually do part 2. Then because we know how we can put equipment on it, that means a further 2 actions for each piece of equipment we want for it, more Adamant and more ingredients. Going upwards of 8 actions is eminently possible just building the golem and its stuff.

Personally I expect us to take centuries to even get to a point where we've finished the researches and set up and at least another half century to build the bloody thing and its equipment.
 
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Chief18753 said:
GW and BL putting out a book that conflicts with other books?

Why that couldn't be. We all know about their great and enormous respect for continuity and accuracy of information. :V
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Yeah.

Anyway I'm not one to discount singular sources, but this one is just too far out, in addition to being written in a series that was retroactively made into the prequel of the worst stuff that came from the End Times.
 
BungieONI said:
Yep! As Eva mentioned I formulated the proposal concretely though looking back it looks like others were postulating the idea before me. Here's the quote where I formulate it.



Basically, a Golem has a decent amount of support just from our surface level estimation based on these factors: We know that the Master Rune of Awakening requires a Troll Heart for its use, so natively the Greedy Heart as a Troll Heart should have a lot of power with a Master Rune of Awakening. Additionally Snorri outright says in the research option that he thinks he can make really good Runes of Healing and Runes of Fortitude with the Greedy Heart, which makes sense due to its impossible vitality of still beating after being removed from its mortal body and its incredible regenerative properties.

The idea behind this proposal which got labeled Ymir, is outlined in the quote but basically boils down to these thoughts: Trolls are Mighty creatures with great Fortitude and the Master Rune of Awakening requires a Troll Heart. So the hope is that by using a combo of the Master Rune of Awakening, Rune of Might and Rune of Fortitude to create a very powerful synergy on the T5 Golem.

The catch of doing a T5 with the Heart in my mind is that there's legwork we have to do to really support it properly, namely projects are going to have individualized research requirements and T4 and T3 ingredients like Adamant and Silver Wutroth will likely be necessary as supporting ingredients for the Heart as a core. There's quite a few projects like, a super healing banner to give the whole Hold a healing effect like Trolls which I'm particularly fond of though I can't remember who came up with that one, or some kind of perpetual engine for the Hold's industry as @bird yells proposed.

  • The universal bit of leg work we have to do is studying the heart itself, for any project using it. We can't use it in a project until we do that.

For the Golem, there's a couple of steps that would need to be taken before we could create it according to my proposal:

  • Since I want to plate it in Adamant we need to be able to produce Adamant reliably. That means finishing Rune Metal part 4 at least, if part 4 gives reliable Adamant manufacture, which seems likely.

  • We'd also need to study the Movement of Things research. That should help with understanding and improving upon Golems in general, ala Rune Metal is my hope.

That's the research stuff and we're only almost to the Rune Metal requirement after 90 years since we got the heart.
  • Then we have to make infrastructure to support making that amount of Adamant/Make enough Adamant to plate a big ass Golem, probably Ogre or bigger in dimensions. Big enough to comfortably use as a mount for Snorri. This might be mixed with completing Rune Metal part 4, but I'm going to assume no.

  • Then we have to get whatever supporting ingredients we think we need. Troll parts are effectively infinite considering where we live, plus Pure Gromril. There might be others, but those are the main ones.

  • Then we have to make the Golem itself, which we know is 4 actions. One to take up part one of the request, 3 to actually do part 2. Then because we know how we can put equipment on it, that means a further 2 actions for each piece of equipment we want for it, more Adamant and more ingredients. Going upwards of 8 actions is eminently possible just building the golem and its stuff.

Personally I expect us to take centuries to even get to a point where we've finished the researches and set up and at least another half century to build the bloody thing and its equipment.
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And all of that is probably still insanely rushing it to the point of absurdity by Dawi standards. Personally I'm fine not having that done till turn 50 or something if need be. A T5 isnt something anyone uses lightly after all.
 
Abhishek M said:
And all of that is probably still insanely rushing it to the point of absurdity by Dawi standards. Personally I'm fine not having that done till turn 50 or something if need be. A T5 isnt something anyone uses lightly after all.
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Ikr? I could come up with more things to do that might help, but I have to limit my proposals somehow in order for it to be at all reasonable.

And funnily enough Turn 30-50 was my usual guesstimate for the time period we'd start actually building the Golem's body.
 
BungieONI said:
Ikr? I could come up with more things to do that might help, but I have to limit my proposals somehow in order for it to be at all reasonable.

And funnily enough Turn 30-50 was my usual guesstimate for the time period we'd start actually building the Golem's body.
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For now I'd be happy finishing the metal and the new Wutroth research chain. Maybe finally take a gander at the light rune research action. Make a new above ground communication method and defense maybe with runed light panels.

Boost warengine production and strength with finding out Silver Wutroths secrets. Making animated death traps. Churning out a few more Epic and Legendary creations.

Heh, maybe finding a bunch of new very lucrative materials from Yorrisnnotes and just generally looking around.

And all that doesnt include upping our own equipment and getting in a few more scraps either.
 
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Abhishek M said:
For now I'd be happy finishing the metal and the new Wutroth research chain. Maybe finally take a gander at the light rune research action. Make a new above ground communication method and defense maybe with runed light panels.
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Mmm. Amusedly the length of time construction and research on this proposal is very Runelord, so there's definitely a weight of verisimilitude to it!

E: Granted @Thor's Twin it may turn out that the Heart is impractical for a Golem project. I don't think it will be, but I don't actually know that so have to keep it in mind.
 
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BungieONI said:
Mmm. Amusedly the length of time construction and research on this proposal is very Runelord, so there's definitely a weight of verisimilitude to it!
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Weve had most of those research actions sitting on the docket since turn one. Very Runelord to have emergencies and beardling requests take up a century or two before you could get back to stuff.

Ah well, next turn we blitz through the Underway construction in two turns fortifying it as we go. And then we get back to getting Adamant metal production and Master Rune dang it.
 
Abhishek M said:
Weve had most of those research actions sitting on the docket since turn one. Very Runelord to have emergencies and beardling requests take up a century or two before you could get back to stuff.

Ah well, next turn we blitz through the Underway construction in two turns fortifying it as we go. And then we get back to getting Adamant metal production and Master Rune dang it.
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Here's hoping!
 
EVA-Saiyajin said:
in addition to being written in a series that was retroactively made into the prequel of the worst stuff that came from the End Times.
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Ehm, Malekith was written in 2008, and Sigmar's Blood, the first of what would become the End Times novels wasn't released until 2013. That is far, far, far too long of a time for any kind of plan GW and BL would've had.

Not to mention the fact that the Sundering series had these scenes.

"Once again her touch dazzled Carathril before a moment of clarity engulfed him, as if a distant voice spoke to him: Bel Shanaar was dead and Malekith sought to become Phoenix King in his place. 'This cannot be allowed,' the voice said, 'Malekith is not fit to rule.' With a snarl, Carathril pushed Drutheira backwards and regained his feet. He stumbled into a run, heading back down the pier."
A prickle of sensation shuddered through Malekith; the touch of magic. He turned his head to the left seeking the source.

A wave of white fire poured towards him. It was beautiful, glittering like moonlight on the sea, flecked with gold and silver. He recognised the flames. He had stood within them to receive Asuryan's blessing. Now the lord of gods had come again to aid Malekith, as he had Aenarion.

With a surge of power, Malekith heaved free the body of Sulekh. He stood up and faced the oncoming fire, arms spread wide to receive Asuryan's blessing. The white flames crackled closer and closer, a chill wind against his red-hot armour. He closed his eyes as the fire engulfed him, waiting for the release from the agony that had been his companion for more than two decades.

Fresh pain seared through his chest and arms. Malekith gave a cry and opened his eyes.

It was not the flame of Asuryan that surrounded him, but the halberds of the Phoenix Guard. Each blade burned with the white fires of Asuryan, every blow they landed upon the Witch King igniting the flame that had been set within his flesh by the lord of gods.

The physical pain was as nothing compared to the pain of betrayal. As his iron flesh was rent and ripped by the swinging halberds of the Phoenix Guard Malekith realised he had not received Asuryan's blessing. His father had not endured the agony he had endured.

The Witch King's delusion fell away and he saw his punishment for what it was. Asuryan had shunned him, cursed him with everlasting torment. The shock of it brought Malekith to his knees as more blows rained down upon him, carving furrows in his black armour.
So, i don't think Thorpe was writing these with the intent that Malekith was some chosen one (even if he did write that BS in a much later book). Not when Asuryan is screaming that Malekith isn't worthy before the latter even walks into to the Flame.
 
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Here's hoping Snorri has things to learn and innovate for the next couple Millenia. I think it's been stated by soulcake that Runelords don't die of old age. They die when they stop researching new runes and applications.
 
Captain Spatula said:
Here's hoping Snorri has things to learn and innovate for the next couple Millenia. I think it's been stated by soulcake that Runelords don't die of old age. They die when they stop researching new runes and applications.
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We already have the answer to this one. We don't need to worry about it, based on the FAQ.
 
For some reason when we got the bar of adamant, my mind kept drifting to the idea of making armour with it and the greedy one's heart, as a sort of shorter-term payoff for it that could be used during the starting parts of the demonic incursion.

(I wonder if such a suit of armour would hypothetically be good enough to for grimnir to change into, if we gave it to him before/as he invades the chaos wastes)
 
Harried said:
For some reason when we got the bar of adamant, my mind kept drifting to the idea of making armour with it and the greedy one's heart, as a sort of shorter-term payoff for it that could be used during the starting parts of the demonic incursion.

(I wonder if such a suit of armour would hypothetically be good enough to for grimnir to change into, if we gave it to him before/as he invades the chaos wastes)
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We have a single bar that fits in our hand. At best we could affix a plate about the size of a dinner plate to the breast plate of a piece of armor. We need better throughput.

And in general I'm not expecting any of our stuff to match up to the Ancestors needs, so that I can be pleasantly surprised if it somehow happens.
 
You think Snorri is going to become an Ancestor? Also possibly making friends with some elves to be his workshop helpers, as he expands his gift giving to other races?
 
Tinkerer said:
You think Snorri is going to become an Ancestor? Also possibly making friends with some elves to be his workshop helpers, as he expands his gift giving to other races?
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He might confer with Elves as colleagues in the magical arts, but as actual helpers I expect that to be limited to memes after we meet them.

As for him becoming an Ancestor? I don't expect that to happen because the current Ancestors are so old no one can actually remember when they were born, and the world is too old for that to happen with Snorri I think. Could he be the oldest living dwarf in the Karaz Ankor? Probably! Just have to not die for long enough.
 
BungieONI said:
He might confer with Elves as colleagues in the magical arts, but as actual helpers I expect that to be limited to memes after we meet them.

As for him becoming an Ancestor? I don't expect that to happen because the current Ancestors are so old no one can actually remember when they were born, and the world is too old for that to happen with Snorri I think. Could he be the oldest living dwarf in the Karaz Ankor? Probably! Just have to not die for long enough.
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Are you sure, cause Grombrindel is a thing.
 
BungieONI said:
He might confer with Elves as colleagues in the magical arts, but as actual helpers I expect that to be limited to memes after we meet them.

As for him becoming an Ancestor? I don't expect that to happen because the current Ancestors are so old no one can actually remember when they were born, and the world is too old for that to happen with Snorri I think. Could he be the oldest living dwarf in the Karaz Ankor? Probably! Just have to not die for long enough.
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If he lives to the canon time of WHF he would be well known as a Living Ancestor at that point. He might not be on the Ancestor Gods level when it comes to reverence, but a Living Ancestor from when some of the Ancestor Gods were still walking around?

Oh yeah, he'd have some sway. His lineage might be mixed up and he might become known as a 'Son of Thungni' as opposed to just descended from him if he's been kicking it for what? 6k years just pumping out runes and researching?
 
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