RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

soulcake · Apr 21, 2020

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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)

Woltaire · Jun 17, 2021

VicSage said:
I'm unsure if this has already been answered. Hypothetically, if we hadn't been inducted into the brotherhood for our successful rediscovery of Adamant (as in, they didn't find us in time), what would have happened if we revealed its existence at a Rhunkalbrogg?

they hit themselves at the head for being bad at their job and then quickly try to bring us into it

Copperscale · Jun 17, 2021

VicSage said:
I'm unsure if this has already been answered. Hypothetically, if we hadn't been inducted into the brotherhood for our successful rediscovery of Adamant (as in, they didn't find us in time), what would have happened if we revealed its existence at a Rhunkalbrogg?

Snorri gets a commendation for his sneakiness.

MrHobbit · Jun 17, 2021

Dark as Silver said:
Yes but actually no.
Could you explain how, recruiting 60 people into an existing order to delegate the work of investigating the runestones to s

Because Tradition is on the side of using Retainers and basically every Dwarf in the know about Waystones will see it as idiotic not to just use his own retainers.

Retainers are bound to the Dwarf in Oaths much much more serious than anything else. It also sounds like a complete waste of time.

Dragon_352 · Jun 17, 2021

Dark as Silver said:
Yes but actually no.
Could you explain how, recruiting 60 people into an existing order to delegate the work of investigating the runestones to some other people fufills the spirit of the oath, but creating a group with the specific intent to investigate does not?

Why is there an important difference between a sub section of the Hearthguard and a separate group entirely? Is it even clear that there is a mechanic that would allow that?
The reason I wanted a seperate group is that the skills of the Hearthguard are frankly not really optimised for the task, they're Elders, they'll get it done. But of their utility skills:

Repair and maybe monster tracking are relevant.

Furthermore, as direct retainers of Snorri, we could never get other runesmiths involved so the only person who can actually fix the things will always be us.
Theres only so much productivity can do when its a months travel to get somewhere and a weeks work to fix it.

hm, sorry. thats on me.

the original version of that post did clarify better that I actually was asserting that it would be better to just have it be done alongside everything else so that the activity gets that much better buried underneith everything else we have been having the hearthguard do.

but to more directly answer your question/assertion, I don't think our retainers CAN be made better for the task at hand...not easily anyway. Even runelords struggle with waystones so theres nothing non-runesmiths could possably do other then finding them and reporting on their status and keeping the map updated. in fact, based on OP's responces and clarifications, theres not a whole lot *WE* can do outsidie our practically obligatory attempt at researching the things.

see here --> RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest) Fantasy

the only time a runesmith is actually needed out there is when we personally want to do some research (which renders a retainer one moot) or a new waystone is found and needs new runes (which I think is going to be very rare based on what yorii said in the update about it all)

and I'm not sure we can have runesmiths as retainers even if they actually added anything anyway.

edit: in otherwords, our retainers with the barana and monster-tracking skills are actually pretty much the most we can expect toher then just bumping them up more.

Mr. Idiot · Jun 17, 2021

Could we create talismans or banners with a special rune combo to protect the waystones?

Maybe you could use a rune of purification to make it the equivalent of hallowed ground? Ie Daemons and corrupted can't foot there?

I feel that the beastmen and/or chaos are preparing for something involving the waystones, I want maximum protection for them if we can find the time

tri2 · Jun 17, 2021

wardstone researcher potentially lets us create stealth stones to help hide the waystones

Dragon_352 · Jun 17, 2021

Mr. Idiot said:
Could we create talismans or banners with a special rune combo to protect the waystones?

Maybe you could use a rune of purification to make it the equivalent of hallowed ground? Ie Daemons and corrupted can't foot there?

I feel that the beastmen and/or chaos are preparing for something involving the waystones, I want maximum protection for them if we can find the time

tri2 said:
wardstone researcher potentially lets us create stealth stones to help hide the waystones

yeah, I assume that stuff like this is doable, but keep in mind that Yorri just spent the last few centurys doing all of that. He pretty much told us that we don't have to worry much about warding the sites even. Although he did state he might have missed some, especially in the more northern parts due to how many beast-men were around, and obviously he hasn't warded those yet.

basically, yes, we can stack some more wards of our own as we do our research if/when we find something that's better then Yorri's work.....but Yorri IS our senior by a still significant amount and SEVERAL century's more work put into these things.....so the bar is pretty dang high even for us.

But I think ensuring the map is complete, and keeping it up-to-date is the only thing we have to do critically and the retainers as-is can do that pretty well till they find one that not only lacks warding (I assume non-runesmiths can still at least recognize the presence/lack-of dwarven rune's even if not details or specifics), but its not too risky to spend the time next to them to ward them.

edit: for reference I found the bit for those who are too lazy to find it:

the quote

"For the surviving ones, little else but making sure they're safe and hidden. Secrecy is their greatest defence given how out of the way so many of them are and having bands of dwarfs running about near them was decided to be logistically untenable, especially for the frontiers. As for the damaged and ruined ones it depends. For the former, in most cases, the best practice is just to make sure they don't degrade further and as for the latter, just to keep a record of their position. In the unfortunate event that the Gori find one, they'll do their best to desecrate the site and turn them into one of their damned Herdstones. Never mind what happens when daemons find them. If that happens, there is little to do but render the entire site inoperable. And before you ask, yes there is a reason why we aren't attempting to fix them. The things are beyond any of us, only my Father and Grandfather have attempted it, but they can't be everywhere. The best we can do is use Runecraft to Ward the grounds and protect them from further damage, which Yorri has been doing for the ones up North so you needn't worry too much about rushing about and seeing that done."

"Is there anything else I should need to be doing?" you prod.

"Not especially. You can keep scouring the peninsula to see if there were some Yorri missed on his pass if you'd like. He's good at what he does, but on the other hand, he's but one Dwarf."

"He's also right here Alric, but in that same vein, I will admit that the farther west I went the more difficult it became to survey for the things. Nothing there but Gori and monsters out the arse, it made it damn tough to find any stones to begin with. Let alone any that weren't damaged in some way or outright destroyed already. Half the time I was there I was getting chased by Beastmen, so I sided on caution and fell back rather than risk bringing the location of one of the sites to their attention. That map gets more out of date the farther you go out from the more settled regions, but by no more than a decade at the moment," your master comments glibly.

double-edit: you know..... upon re-reading it again, I'm seriously thinking that we will be far more capable of warding the sites then Yorrii was cas we will not only have backup (why diden't he bring on help I wonder?), but unparalelled scouting ability from our flyers for just simply better avoiding the beastmen....especially if we can give them runes that hide them well enough they don't have to worry about being seen.

I know we already have a rune for equipment/engineering....but hopefully we learn a stealth rune/several or something by going to a already well-warded site.

Dark as Silver · Jun 18, 2021

Just checking, when people are talking about a map, do they mean an in story one or is there an actual map of the north with marked stone locations?

Dragon_352 said:
and I'm not sure we can have runesmiths as retainers even if they actually added anything anyway.

One minor thing; yes, thats why I wanted them to be allies not retainers for this reason,
mr Hobbit seems to have picked up on that as his argument seems to be "Retainers are basically an extension of of the one they've sworn to so they can fufill oaths in ways non retainers can't." which I don't really agree with, Snorri has always been about practicality and results over the most literal conservatism. If the outcome is the same or better I don't really accept that he wouldn't consider it part of his duty.

And I agree, we can only make the Hearthguard so much better, that's why I want to make a separate group, because I think we can specialise a seperate group to this task better than if we want the Heartguard to remain generalists.
So that we're recruiting 90% rangers rather than 30%. On top of that the sort of people we're attracting to the hearthguard are probably the sort who want to be social and help people which itself is possibly discouraging to the more solitary rangers (probably a narrative effect only, I expect that mechanically it doesn't matter).
If we expand the Hearthguard, we don't get 60 rangers and Brana who would be ideal for subtle exploration and investigation of these sites, we get a handful of rangers, a handful of miners, a handful of warriors, some seige engineers and probably one brana.
So that this group can develop their own traditions that are more suited to the wilderness than the hearthguards Steadfast Guardians trait is.

DragonParadox · Jun 18, 2021

Dark as Silver said:
Could you explain how, recruiting 60 people into an existing order to delegate the work of investigating the runestones to some other people fufills the spirit of the oath, but creating a group with the specific intent to investigate does not?

What do you call this group, how do you justify its existence to the Karaz Ankor at large, given that Waystones are secret? It is going to look like not just a break with tradition but also one without a clear purpose. It is going to look like just the kind of egomania Snori has already been accused of.

Dark as Silver · Jun 18, 2021

DragonParadox said:
What do you call this group, how do you justify its existence to the Karaz Ankor at large, given that Waystones are secret? It is going to look like not just a break with tradition but also one without a clear purpose. It is going to look like just the kind of egomania Snori has already been accused of.

Not really a significant part of my argument and I'm not a name guy. Guess this depends a lot on the second question.
Secret societies exist, we don't need to justify it to those who aren't included, however if you want to be public, we can be a group dedicated to identifying and exploring anomalies in the north.
Which traditions?
Why is it egomaniacal? No one pushes back that our membership in the Brotherhood is a sign of egomania. I'm not proposing two groups of retainers (although if I where I don't see how two groups totalling 150 would be more maniacal than one group of 180).

DragonParadox · Jun 18, 2021

Dark as Silver said:
Not really a significant part of my argument and I'm not a name guy. Guess this depends a lot on the second question.
Secret societies exist, we don't need to justify it to those who aren't included, however if you want to be public, we can be a group dedicated to identifying and exploring anomalies in the north.
Which traditions?
Why is it egomaniacal? No one pushes back that our membership in the Brotherhood is a sign of egomania. I'm not proposing two groups of retainers (although if I where I don't see how two groups totalling 150 would be more maniacal than one group of 180).

That is rather different prospect, the Brotherhood answers to no one, it is an association of equals. Any organization we actually made for the Waystones would have to answer to us to be covered by our vow. As to why a second organization would be egomaniacal, it is because we would have no justification for its existence, The Hearthguard exists to protect Snori, all else is an extension of what we ask them to do, but at their core they are a bodyguard.

Dark as Silver · Jun 18, 2021

DragonParadox said:
That is rather different prospect, the Brotherhood answers to no one, it is an association of equals. Any organization we actually made for the Waystones would have to answer to us to be covered by our vow. As to why a second organization would be egomaniacal, it is because we would have no justification for its existence, The Hearthguard exists to protect Snori, all else is an extension of what we ask them to do, but at their core they are a bodyguard.

Why?

Dark as Silver said:
Snorri has always been about practicality and results over the most literal conservatism. If the outcome is the same or better I don't really accept that he wouldn't consider it part of his duty.

When we said that we'd get everyone in the hold runed items in preparation for campaigns and the underway we enlisted the help of other runesmiths and such.
We've had grudges get cleared without our action previously. So clearly sometimes these can get completed or fulfilled without the need of Snorri to everything directly.

soulcake said:
~~- Rank 2 Grudge(Angry Shouts):~~ The spawn of Haruzrildrakk. For the Injury of the prince and heir of Otrek Ironarm, the deaths of twenty Stout Huskarls, the decimation of the accompanying party of dwarfs and destruction of Dwarfen property. The only payment shall be death. ~~Actions toward settling this grudge gain +1 action worth of progress. Prince Gloin Ironarm has sworn vengeance. +5 Bonus to rolls against this Dragon.~~ AVENGED TURN 28.

And I disagree with that characterisation of the hearthguard.

--[X] A necessary requirement of a Hearthwarden is that they be an excellent warrior, of course. But as you look at the devastation caused by the demonic Incursion throughout the North, and the challenges it still faces, you see that more will be needed. You envision your guard as a group you can send to render aid to the Dawi of the North, wherever they are needed. As such, you look for not just combat ability but for useful additional skills as well. Followers of Valaya and Gazul, to heal the injured and lay to rest the honoured dead. Longbeards of wisdom and calm persuasion, to soothe tempers and defuse Grudges before they form. Expert search-and-rescue tunnelers. Rangers with knowledge of the beasts of the North, who can guide your guard to hunt down dangers. Above all, the members of your guard will share your determination to protect dawi - all dawi - from anything that would harm them.

We've never looked for the qualities of a good bodyguard as a recruitment priority, we never had that in mind for them. It feels that 'at their core' should be the same value that we also decided that they should have above everything else: Being willing to protect all dwarves from harm.
However even if it where the case, doesn't that make it weirder that we're using them to run errands?

DragonParadox · Jun 18, 2021

Dark as Silver said:
Why?

When we said that we'd get everyone in the hold runed items in preparation for campaigns and the underway we enlisted the help of other runesmiths and such.

And I disagree with that characterisation of the hearthguard.

We've never looked for the qualities of a good bodyguard as a recruitment priority, we never had that in mind for them. It feels that 'at their core' should be the same value that we also decided that they should have above everything else: Being willing to protect all dwarves from harm.
However even if it where the case, doesn't that make it weirder that we're using them to run errands?

It does not really matters what we looked at, our retainers are assumed by dawi society at large to be primarily our bodyguards. What we do with them internally is our business and none of them but there is no logical reason to have two groups of bodyguards under different banners. So what do we declare in public this new organization is for?

Dark as Silver · Jun 18, 2021

DragonParadox said:
It does not really matters what we looked at, our retainers are assumed by dawi society at large to be primarily our bodyguards. What we do with them internally is our business and none of them but there is no logical reason to have two groups of bodyguards under different banners. So what do we declare in public this new organization is for?

Again:

Dark as Silver said:
Secret societies exist, we don't need to justify it to those who aren't included

I wasn't envisioning it as being a public organisation
However

Dark as Silver said:
if you want to be public, we can be a group dedicated to identifying and exploring anomalies in the north.

DragonParadox · Jun 18, 2021

Dark as Silver said:
Again:

I wasn't envisioning it as being a public organisation
However

Secret societies of Runesmiths exist, probably with Thungi's blessing. I would not be willing to bet you can just found one on a whim
In that case our mission statement is an explicit lie. I'm not sure how many of the famously honest dawi would be willing to swear that , or indeed if it is even ethical to ask that of them. What happens when they thane or their king asks them what they have been about? This is not a recognized guild where we can say 'guild secrets' so they are now stuck between conflicting vows.

Copperscale · Jun 18, 2021

Once we Discover more, we could use that as an incentive to get interested/trusted runesmiths on board, similar to the brotherhood of Dron.
Runesmiths with shared interests can band together, as long as it's apartnership of equals.
Work an inspection schedule up, and runesmiths pick and choose their destination.

Of course this is only feasible if waystone knowledge becomes more widespread.
Such as if we find out that all elf mages know.

Or at the "let's combine runecraft and magic to make waystones 2.0" phase

Dark as Silver · Jun 18, 2021

DragonParadox said:
Secret societies of Runesmiths exist, probably with Thungi's blessing. I would not be willing to bet you can just found one on a whim

In that case our mission statement is an explicit lie. I'm not sure how many of the famously honest dawi would be willing to swear that , or indeed if it is even ethical to ask that of them. What happens when they thane or their king asks them what they have been about? This is not a recognized guild where we can say 'guild secrets' so they are now stuck between conflicting vows.

1) Thats stupid, you don't have to argue with everything I say just because I said it, "That might work but I still don't like it" is valid. Do you think that somewhere theres a registry of secret societies, that there's some kind of bureaucracy regulating them? That would kinda defeat the point of any secret society. What about societies that didn't mean to be secret they just didn't publicise themselves so no one outside the society knows about them? Besides nobody tells Runesmiths what to do, even Thungni (they just fall over themselves to do what his suggests). Thats one of the very significant problems with organising Runesmiths. And this society as I presented was always going to include majority non runesmiths just because runesmiths are rarer than Brana and rangers. So is it even a secret society of runesmiths.
2) The mission statement wouldn't be a lie. We're just interested specifically in one particular kind of anomaly.

IronFist said:
Of course this is only feasible if waystone knowledge becomes more widespread.
Such as if we find out that all elf mages know.

We got explicitly told that its okay to find out if Elves know about them, but we can't tell Elves we know about them.

soulcake said:
I don't think it needs to be said that you should not reveal knowledge of the stones to them, even if they already know.

Copperscale · Jun 18, 2021

Dark as Silver said:
We got explicitly told that its okay to find out if Elves know about them, but we can't tell Elves we know about them.

I think that can be discussed again with Alric/Yorri when we know more about the waystones, and when we know more about what the elves know.
Say we found out that the elves have knowledge to repair waystones?
Wouldn't that be worth bringing up?

Ooc, we know that collaboration happened between ulthuan and karaz ankor during the golden age, so i doubt that ban on revealing knowledge will be permanent.

Once the alliance is formed (centuries in the future), the gag order could be rescinded.

Dark as Silver · Jun 18, 2021

IronFist said:
I think that can be discussed again with Alric/Yorri when we know more about the waystones, and when we know more about what the elves know.
Say we found out that the elves have knowledge to repair waystones?
Wouldn't that be worth bringing up?

Ooc, we know that collaboration happened between ulthuan and karaz ankor during the golden age, so i doubt that ban on revealing knowledge will be permanent.

Once the alliance is formed (centuries in the future), the gag order could be rescinded.

Well if you're planning centuries in the future then yes, but I don't think its really worth planning that far ahead.
The crucial thing is trust, not if they know enough

soulcake said:
If you want my opinion, well they have not proven themselves duplicitous, but neither have they been proven trustworthy enough either," Alric eventually answers.

So even if elves did know precisely how to fix them, we would still need to trust them enough to tell them where they are before we allowed them to fix them.

DragonParadox · Jun 18, 2021

Dark as Silver said:
1) Thats stupid, you don't have to argue with everything I say just because I said it, "That might work but I still don't like it" is valid. Do you think that somewhere theres a registry of secret societies, that there's some kind of bureaucracy regulating them? That would kinda defeat the point of any secret society. What about societies that didn't mean to be secret they just didn't publicise themselves so no one outside the society knows about them? Besides nobody tells Runesmiths what to do, even Thungni (they just fall over themselves to do what his suggests). Thats one of the very significant problems with organising Runesmiths. And this society as I presented was always going to include majority non runesmiths just because runesmiths are rarer than Brana and rangers. So is it even a secret society of runesmiths.
2) The mission statement wouldn't be a lie. We're just interested specifically in one particular kind of anomaly.

People will ask about stuff, clan leaders guild masters etc... If you are part of a secret society with some acceptance by a higher authority like say your patron god, it is easier for the notoriously scrupulous dawi to lie by omission. It is also not a secret society of runesmiths because it does not include only runesmiths like the Brotherhood

Let's take this from the abstract to the practical. You have a ranger, let's say his name is Joran. Now Joran is working in this secret society and he has to go out with his fellow secret society members to make sure the Waystones are fine. What does he say to his guild lolcal guild master when that worthy suggests another patrol at the same date? How about if his clan head suggests going to a wedding? If Joran says 'I'm busy' those authority figures which you will recall he is sworn to follow and obey will ask: 'What are you buys with?'

What does he reply?

Copperscale · Jun 18, 2021

Dark as Silver said:
Well if you're planning centuries in the future then yes, but I don't think its really worth planning that far ahead.

We can lay the groundwork for things to happen in the future though (brana alliance, brana retainers...)

Alric admitted he was not knowledgeable about elves, and that Snorri is one of those that know the most.

But anyway, i don't think the event that spurs the alliance into reality is that far:
We're likely to shed oceans of blood against the fimir soon,which might be the start of something, depending on how bad it gets, and how the elves involve themselves.

After all, killing things together is the root of most warhammer bromances (case in point Gimli and not-Legolas).

Dark as Silver · Jun 18, 2021

DragonParadox said:
People will ask about stuff, clan leaders guild masters etc... If you are part of a secret society with some acceptance by a higher authority like say your patron god, it is easier for the notoriously scrupulous dawi to lie by omission. It is also not a secret society of runesmiths because it does not include only runesmiths like the Brotherhood

Let's take this from the abstract to the practical. You have a ranger, let's say his name is Joran. Now Joran is working in this secret society and he has to go out with his fellow secret society members to make sure the Waystones are fine. What does he say to his guild lolcal guild master when that worthy suggests another patrol at the same date? How about if his clan head suggests going to a wedding? If Joran says 'I'm busy' those authority figures which you will recall he is sworn to follow and obey will ask: 'What are you buys with?'

What does he reply?

I just posted a quote showing that dwarves are very willing to lie by omission to protect this particular secret. I guess you're only reading this conversation atm.

soulcake said:
I don't think it needs to be said that you should not reveal knowledge of the stones to them, even if they already know.

The very fact that they have guild secrets and the like should make it abundantly clear that lying by omission is common practice in dwarven society.
This whole rangers guild thing seems odd, there isn't a rangers guild, they're part of the Throng so they answer to clan heads or kings. Snorri would just have a word with them to say Runelord business or something, Rangers of all people should understand the importance of discretion. If anything this highlights that the society has additional advantages over the Hearthguard as we can involve dwarves who couldn't join the Hearthguard because of conflicting oaths so that we can reduce the likelihood that the stones get discovered because some random people where patrolling in the area and they stumbled on it.

DragonParadox · Jun 18, 2021

Dark as Silver said:
I just posted a quote showing that dwarves are very willing to lie by omission to protect this particular secret. I guess you're only reading this conversation atm.

The very fact that they have guild secrets and the like should make it abundantly clear that lying by omission is common practice in dwarven society.
This whole rangers guild thing seems odd, there isn't a rangers guild, they're part of the Throng so they answer to clan heads or kings. Snorri would just have a word with them to say Runelord business or something, Rangers of all people should understand the importance of discretion. If anything this highlights that the society has additional advantages over the Hearthguard as we can involve dwarves who couldn't join the Hearthguard because of conflicting oaths so that we can reduce the likelihood that the stones get discovered because some random people where patrolling in the area and they stumbled on it.

Guilds have guild tradition, their secrets are consecrated by being part of an organization that goes back millennia. Our secret society does not have that. That said I agree that Snori can have words with the local institutions of Karak Drak to ensure that not questions are asked, but the fact that he asked those questions is now common knowledge, he does not have the authority to demand secrecy about the secret society from people outside of it, so we are back to looking prideful since 'runesmith buisness' that demands non-runesmiths which are not part of our retinue sounds an awful lot like 'because I said so'.

Dark as Silver · Jun 18, 2021

DragonParadox said:
Guilds have guild tradition, their secrets are consecrated by being part of an organization that goes back millennia. Our secret society does not have that. That said I agree that Snori can have words with the local institutions of Karak Drak to ensure that not questions are asked, but the fact that he asked those questions is now common knowledge, he does not have the authority to demand secrecy about the secret society from people outside of it, so we are back to looking prideful since 'runesmith buisness' that demands non-runesmiths which are not part of our retinue sounds an awful lot like 'because I said so'.

If you're genuinely arguing that dwarves can't legally keep secrets unless its as part of a millennia old guild then I think we probably left the realm of productive discussion a couple posts ago.

Copperscale · Jun 18, 2021

"i need some rangers for some runelord business" covers for a multitude of things.

I can see the appeal, but we already have an Organization sworn to us, and beholden to none.

When/if we get to the point when we involve other Runesmiths, i can see forming another organisation for this, but we are not there yet.

Then we can bring rangers into it as full time 'employees' and have them swear satisfactory secrecy oaths.

So when a runesmith goes to take a look at waystones, they have a pool of sworn outdoorsdwarfs to accompany them.