RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

soulcake · Apr 21, 2020

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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)

tri2 · Jun 18, 2021

basically to protect the waystones, we want the Hearthguards to

1. check on them to make sure nothing has found them and no damage has been done on them (Status Updates)
2. Call in Snorri if something HAS happened to them (emergency summon)
3. Kill off everything nasty in the area around said way stones (Keeping area safe)
4. Finding more of them in the North (Searching)

We have 180 Hearthguards who have been with us since the beginning we can absolutely trust to do these things and be trusted with the secret, with new hearthguards being gradually read into the secret probably.
120 New hearthguards can do 3 without knowing about the stones and taking up duties the older generation have done, namely going around helping people or guarding snorri ?AP
180 Old hearthguards will be finding the stones and checking on them. 3AP
while both will be directed to killing nasties wherever they go, with secretly the areas with stones getting more killing missions

Dark as Silver · Jun 18, 2021

IronFist said:
You have the wrong action. Re-Warding is a Snorri action, Waywarding is a Snorri/Retainer action.

Thanks.

MrHobbit said:
I didn't bring up the fucking mechanics.

MrHobbit said:
That means we essentially have to invest our actions, whether personal or retainer, into checking up on them fairly often.

Really not sure how to interpret this except as mechanics.

MrHobbit · Jun 18, 2021

Dark as Silver said:
Really not sure how to interpret this except as mechanics.

If you are going to continue to ignore arguments that you have no counter to, at least concede on them.

That was hardly the main thrust of the argument, I was merely explaining what the narrative meant for the game. It was an aside and your response to it is disingenuous at best.

The fact of the matter is Alric Thungnisson only said it is okay to reveal Waystones to our Retainers and a very select few Branakroki.

Dragon_352 · Jun 18, 2021

tri2 said:
basically to protect the waystones, we want the Hearthguards to

1. check on them to make sure nothing has found them and no damage has been done on them (Status Updates)
2. Call in Snorri if something HAS happened to them (emergency summon)
3. Kill off everything nasty in the area around said way stones (Keeping area safe)
4. Finding more of them in the North (Searching)

We have 180 Hearthguards who have been with us since the beginning we can absolutely trust to do these things and be trusted with the secret, with new hearthguards being gradually read into the secret probably.
120 New hearthguards can do 3 without knowing about the stones and taking up duties the older generation have done, namely going around helping people or guarding snorri ?AP
180 Old hearthguards will be finding the stones and checking on them. 3AP
while both will be directed to killing nasties wherever they go, with secretly the areas with stones getting more killing missions

1): we have done at least one set of expansions so we have not had 180 sicne the beginning (not important, but I figured I would point this out).
2): it seems likely that we will be getting pushback from people who don't like the idea of maxing hearthguard numbers, so keep that in mind before saying "2 entire sets of new hearthguard"....
3): pretty sure its 60/new retainer action, so we'd get 2 new actions not 3.
4): personally, I think it would be best that we rotate out who's doing the waywarding at least occasionally rather then just blanket-slapping the task to only the extra-old hearthguard (who have most of the skills we use at home anyway). Bringing the new ones in slowly is probably a good idea, but my point is that randomizing who's doing it makes it harder to pin-point who to monitor in the case someone gets it in their head to start spying on us (unlikely, but still relevant I think) to figure out what their doing.
5): we explictlly DON'T want the hearthguard just wiping out the area surronding the waystones, that would bring attention to them we really don't want. this NEEDS to be just killing/dodging nasties as they go---and then making sure that happens to include particular locations.

mind you, I'm ok with at the least getting 1 new action/turn to dedicate towards way-guarding/patrolling (although several would probably be good too <shrug>.
...just wanted to point those out.

DragonParadox · Jun 18, 2021

Dark as Silver said:
...
Were the Masons a secret society or the Illuminati? Even though outsiders knew they existed? Just not their purpose or numbers....
The purpose of the secrecy was additional security by obscurity for the waystones, it wasn't to prevent other dwarves knowing because they might judge us for having more minions than our status would allow.
As long as people don't know what we're doing, I consider the secrecy a success.

As for if dwarves would be worried? No. I hope that Snorri has earned enough trust across the north that no one is going to assume we're about to launch a coup.

Sure he has earned enough trust in the north, but he has also earned enough enemies elsewhere including inside his own guild that complaints would be raised. Do you want to deal with the fellow from the last update calling us out in full session of the Guild to explain something we cannot explain because of oaths to Alaric?

Dark as Silver · Jun 18, 2021

MrHobbit said:
The fact of the matter is Alric Thungnisson only said it is okay to reveal Waystones to our Retainers and a very select few Branakroki.

So no. He gave us pretty wide discretion

soulcake said:
Given your position of continued contact and general experience in the area, I'll defer to your expertise in these circumstances when finding the appropriate Brana to be informed.

soulcake said:
"He is a Runesmith, a Runelord, the only orders we follow are when we are apprentices and after that, only the ones we swear to. We lead ourselves, we follow at our discretion, and only Thungni can claim either right or worthiness to lead us all,"

I don't know why he'd expect us to be less strict with Dwarves rather than Brana but he didn't require the Brana to be retainers, just that they're appropriate. The retainers came up because Snorri asked, not because Alric was attempting to mark a boundary. Apart from the elves which, again, we prompted him about he didn't mention anything about who we couldn't bring in.
The stuff about orders is also important, the reason we're the only we can trust comes from a lot of reasons: A) he doesn't know any northerners, he only knows us via Yorri. B) Because he can't technically order people on how to do it correctly he knows that anyone this gets delegated to will do it in their own way and he can give very little guidance without being improper.

DragonParadox said:
Sure he has earned enough trust in the north, but he has also earned enough enemies elsewhere including inside his own guild that complaints would be raised. Do you want to deal with the fellow from the last update calling us out in full session of the Guild to explain something we cannot explain because of oaths to Alaric?

If it came to that then Alric would stand up and vouch for us. Full session of the guild means that everyone who is in on the waystone secret is also there.

DragonParadox · Jun 18, 2021

Dark as Silver said:
If it came to that then Alric would stand up and vouch for us. Full session of the guild means that everyone who is in on the waystone secret is also there.

At which point we will have made Alric get on his feet in public and use his influence to talk about the thing he asked us to keep secret. Frankly if I were in his shoes at that moment I would wonder if I was right trusting Snori with the secret to begin with.

MrHobbit · Jun 18, 2021

Dark as Silver said:
So no. He gave us pretty wide dispersion
I don't know why he'd expect us to be less strict with Dwarves rather than Brana but he didn't require the Brana to be retainers, just that they're appropriate. The retainers came up because Snorri asked, not because Alric was attempting to mark a boundary. Apart from the elves which, again, we prompted him about he didn't mention anything about who we couldn't bring in.
The stuff about orders is also important, the reason we're the only we can trust comes from a lot of reasons: A) he doesn't know any northerners, he only knows us via Yorri. B) Because he can't technically order people on how to do it correctly he knows that anyone this gets delegated to will do it in their own way and he can give very little guidance without being improper.

I believe you have forgotten a critical part of that statement.

soulcake said:
It would rankle at some, but telling a very trusted source who is not a dwarf would be acceptable.

They are trying to keep knowledge of the Waystones to an absolute minimum. Retainers of trustworthy individuals are much more trustworthy than most Dwarfs, so that trust is extended. There is no reason to extend it to anyone else.

Do keep in mind that one of the Runelords of the Far North was put in office by Thungni, and Alric would have investigated the other Runelords of the Far North out of due diligance if nothing else.

Alric claims that he does not give orders, but that is different from the reality of him being Thungni's son and the second oldest living Runelord. He did not say to talk about Waystones beyond our retainers and I quote, very trusted non Dwarfs. It is best to keep the knowledge as compartmentalized as we possibly can, and that inevitably means sending our most trustworthy retainers to watch them because those are among the most trustworthy Dwarfs Snorri deals with by nature of the Oaths that they swear.

Quite frankly the only non Dwarfs (in the story anyways, as funny as it would be for it to be irl) I trust are the four Brana retainers we have and the King of the Skies.

Woltaire · Jun 18, 2021

I be okay with bringing in some of the brana, the king of skies, his top mages maybe the best of each wind that they have but we should try to keep a small circle on this

Byzantine · Jun 18, 2021

I'd say bring in the KotS and let him decide if any of his subjects should be brought in, with a quick vetting by us first if the thread is feeling paranoid.

KotS has his trustworthiness more or less as confirmed as such a thing can be for a non-dawi, and he would know more than we would about what he knows and which of his subjects could be helpful and can be trusted with the knowledge.

tri2 · Jun 18, 2021

I mean can't really go more trustworthy than giving a deadman switch on your own life to someone else not your own kind. King is a definite shoe in with minimum grumbling.

ArchAIngel · Jun 19, 2021

tri2 said:
I mean can't really go more trustworthy than giving a deadman switch on your own life to someone else not your own kind. King is a definite shoe in with minimum grumbling.

Yeah, the Ancestors gave him a Trusted Gift(TM). Saying he's not reliable is basically impugning the Ancestors.

That's Not Done By Dawi Society.

Czes · Jun 19, 2021

I hope we keep the knowledge to the Heartguard, both Dwarf and Brana members. The moment these men, women and birds joined the HG, they made the orders of Snorri their highest priority. This goes beyond guild, religious coult, race, hold king or familial obligations. Each and everyone of them swore themselves to Snorri and commits to his actions.

I'm strictly against telling anyone who is not part of the HG. They have no business knowing until either Thungni himself tells them or Alric does it in his stead. The same goes for us telling people outside of our direct purview. The HG is sworn to Snorri and will not act outside of Snorri's orders. Everybody else is an uncontrollable element. While telling the KotS makes sense, I would rather have multiple IC reasons for Snorri to do so, before we commit to this action.

The proposal to form some kind of guard for the Waystones might seem reasonable, but it again contradicts the amount of secrecy other Runelords have put into this project.

If we, by some extremely unfortunate circumstances, get somehow seperated from the rest of the Karaz Ankor and become the de facto authority on all things runic in the North, than we can definitely do as we please.

Right now we should investigate them, find out more and if we conclude, that the few Brana we have in our retinue aren't enough to properly research, protect and repair the Waystones, than we can still add others into the circle.

Karugus · Jun 19, 2021

The point of just using the Hearth Guard rather than just creating an entirely new institution is because we weren't asked to create a new institution to protect the Waystones. We were asked to protect the Waystones in the region personally. Because of Dawi culture and oaths our retainers legally count as extensions of our person for this (for better or for worse). But founding a new institution, whatever the intent doesn't. This is the society that has century long debates over whether there needs to be a new institution to regulate the passenger industry or it falls into mail or normal trade. This is the society where its just tentatively coming out that Dwarfs can be corrupted by Chaos and betray that same society.

The creation of an institution to police and regulate the Waystones from Chaos in the North is not the province of any one Runelord. It might not even be the province of all the Kings of the North acting in accord. Asking a private but respected citizen to discretely keep an eye on something in his spare time with what resources he has at his disposal is not license to start a private militia in the real world, let alone with the notoriously fastidious Dwarfs of WHF.

Dark as Silver · Jun 19, 2021

DragonParadox said:
At which point we will have made Alric get on his feet in public and use his influence to talk about the thing he asked us to keep secret. Frankly if I were in his shoes at that moment I would wonder if I was right trusting Snori with the secret to begin with.

You realise that he can say. "I know whats going on there and its non of your buisness" without explaining everything?

I suspect we've successfully circled around to your belief that we cannot even lie by omission which is the reason I abandoned this convo in the first place.

MrHobbit said:
I believe you have forgotten a critical part of that statement.

They are trying to keep knowledge of the Waystones to an absolute minimum. Retainers of trustworthy individuals are much more trustworthy than most Dwarfs, so that trust is extended. There is no reason to extend it to anyone else.

Do keep in mind that one of the Runelords of the Far North was put in office by Thungni, and Alric would have investigated the other Runelords of the Far North out of due diligance if nothing else.

Alric claims that he does not give orders, but that is different from the reality of him being Thungni's son and the second oldest living Runelord. He did not say to talk about Waystones beyond our retainers and I quote, very trusted non Dwarfs. It is best to keep the knowledge as compartmentalized as we possibly can, and that inevitably means sending our most trustworthy retainers to watch them because those are among the most trustworthy Dwarfs Snorri deals with by nature of the Oaths that they swear.

Quite frankly the only non Dwarfs (in the story anyways, as funny as it would be for it to be irl) I trust are the four Brana retainers we have and the King of the Skies.

I disagree with the global statement that retainers are more trustworthy. I trust Otrek as much as any of our retainers and more than most. Retainers are dwarves that we've already demonstrated a great amount of trust in, it doesn't mean that they have some property that makes them more trustworthy than any others, or we wouldn't also be swearing them to secrecy as part of this. It just establishes the baseline of that much trust is enough.
Snorri even specifically asked about retainers so its clear that it wasn't some unspoken dwarven and in his response Alric even mentioned that some dwarves would be upset, so I think you're misrepresenting how retainers are viewed as one and the same as the dwarf they're sworn to.

Alric did not say to talk about the waystones beyond anyone. We asked about retainers and non dwarves and he answered. He's giving us as much leeway as he can to interpret this because Runesmiths do not command other Runesmiths.

Karugus said:
The point of just using the Hearth Guard rather than just creating an entirely new institution is because we weren't asked to create a new institution to protect the Waystones. We were asked to protect the Waystones in the region personally. Because of Dawi culture and oaths our retainers legally count as extensions of our person for this (for better or for worse). But founding a new institution, whatever the intent doesn't. This is the society that has century long debates over whether there needs to be a new institution to regulate the passenger industry or it falls into mail or normal trade. This is the society where its just tentatively coming out that Dwarfs can be corrupted by Chaos and betray that same society.

The creation of an institution to police and regulate the Waystones from Chaos in the North is not the province of any one Runelord. It might not even be the province of all the Kings of the North acting in accord. Asking a private but respected citizen to discretely keep an eye on something in his spare time with what resources he has at his disposal is not license to start a private militia in the real world, let alone with the notoriously fastidious Dwarfs of WHF.

If it where true retainers are part of our person, why did Snorri have to ask? Why would it upset some others?

DragonParadox · Jun 19, 2021

Dark as Silver said:
You realise that he can say. "I know whats going on there and its non of your buisness" without explaining everything?

I suspect we've successfully circled around to your belief that we cannot even lie by omission which is the reason I abandoned this convo in the first place.

OK then let me simplify the argument to one final summary. If you want to keep a secret in dwarf society do not do strange things that break with tradition because those get noticed. We can be radical in matters that are and should be public.

Dark as Silver · Jun 19, 2021

DragonParadox said:
OK then let me simplify the argument to one final summary. If you want to keep a secret in dwarf society do not do strange things that break with tradition because those get noticed. We can be radical in matters that are and should be public.

Cool, I disagree that secret societies are radical or untraditional. I think dwarves are very meticulous with their secrets and societies created to spread them in a controlled way are very familiar things.
Do you want to leave it at agreeing to disagree?

DragonParadox · Jun 19, 2021

Dark as Silver said:
Cool, I disagree that secret societies are radical or untraditional. I think dwarves are very meticulous with their secrets and societies created to spread them in a controlled way are very familiar things.
Do you want to leave it at agreeing to disagree?

Sure. I do not think we have enough of a sample size of secret societies to decide that they are common, but on the other hand I cannot prove they are uncommon either.

Dark as Silver · Jun 19, 2021

DragonParadox said:
Sure. I do not think we have enough of a sample size of secret societies to decide that they are common, but on the other hand I cannot prove they are uncommon either.

Just listing off the ones I know
1) The Burudin, who we think are an unofficial ruling council of extremely close to Thungni apprentices but don't know. Founded by Durin eldest son of Thungni.
2) The Brotherhood of Dron, who we are a member of and their purpose is creating items that break the 3 rune limit, specifically they are attempting to do this by refining ever more pure variants of Gromril in the hopes that eventually they'll find a version capable of withstanding that much energy. Founded by Durin eldest son of Thungni.
3) The Order of Watchers, who we know are an order founded by Gazul himself. Their job seems to be seeking out chaotic threats to the dwarves or something.

I think there might have also been some kind of interior unit in the Valk guard but I'm mind blanking on the details.

Copperscale · Jun 19, 2021

Well, a secret society that is common knowledge is not a very good at the secret part of being a secret organization, isn't it?

They're more ... organizations with highly selective membership and secretive goals.

mmgaballah · Jun 19, 2021

Dark as Silver said:
1) The Burudin, who we think are an unofficial ruling council of extremely close to Thungni apprentices but don't know. Founded by Durin eldest son of Thungni.
2) The Brotherhood of Dron, who we are a member of and their purpose is creating items that break the 3 rune limit, specifically they are attempting to do this by refining ever more pure variants of Gromril in the hopes that eventually they'll find a version capable of withstanding that much energy. Founded by Durin eldest son of Thungni.
3) The Order of Watchers, who we know are an order founded by Gazul himself. Their job seems to be seeking out chaotic threats to the dwarves or something.

so you need to be Ancestor god tier or at least adjacent in order to found a secret organization , well sadly Snorri is not there yet and won't be for a few thousand more years

Dark as Silver · Jun 19, 2021

IronFist said:
Well, a secret society that is common knowledge is not a very good at the secret part of being a secret organization, isn't it?

They're more ... organizations with highly selective membership and secretive goals.

I already said I'm happy with that. It even matches our definitions of societies that many people know exist or existed such as the Stonemasons and Illuminati, however don't know who were members or what they did.
The purpose of the secrecy is to protect the waystones, I don't care if people know the organisation exists as long as the waystone secrecy is preserved.

mmgaballah said:
so you need to be Ancestor god tier or at least adjacent in order to found a secret organization , well sadly Snorri is not there yet and won't be for a few thousand more years

Or the most prestigious and well known ones are founded by prestigious and well known individuals. Or because soulcake doesn't make many minor secret societies because thats less intriguing from a story POV. Even DragonParadox acknowledged that we don't know enough to make a concrete answer on how common they genuinely are because we don't know we know every society.

Mr8 · Jun 19, 2021

You know what? This whole situation feels pretty meh to me, after having read through it over the past few days.

Agreeing to take up the Waywarding was a conscious decision that has an obviously real effect of adding more obligations to Snorri's (and retainers) list that will result in a mechanical trade-off as they now have Waywarding actions they should/need to take, in effect reducing the amount of things they can do.

I find it a bit disheartening that for some, the second they're confronted with the trade-off (i.e. feeling particularly constrained by AP, either Snorri's & retainers), the first thing they do is go 'How can we circumvent this trade-off that was practically unanimously approved.' and settle on doing things like retinue expansion, which to me feels like ignoring the spirit of the request; a kind of deliberate outsourcing of the task.

Meh

Burned_Cookie · Jun 19, 2021

Mr8 said:
You know what? This whole situation feels pretty meh to me, after having read through it over the past few days.

Agreeing to take up the Waywarding was a conscious decision that has an obviously real effect of adding more obligations to Snorri's (and retainers) list that will result in a mechanical trade-off as they now have Waywarding actions they should/need to take, in effect reducing the amount of things they can do.

I find it a bit disheartening that for some, the second they're confronted with the trade-off (i.e. feeling particularly constrained by AP, either Snorri's & retainers), the first thing they do is go 'How can we circumvent this trade-off that was practically unanimously approved.' and settle on doing things like retinue expansion, which to me feels like ignoring the spirit of the request; a kind of deliberate outsourcing of the task.

Meh

Because that's how good business, strategy and really anything works?

If I buy something expensive nobodies gonna be suprised if I start crunching numbers looking for a way to offset that.

Dark as Silver · Jun 19, 2021

Burned_Cookie said:
Because that's how good business, strategy and really anything works?

If I buy something expensive nobodies gonna be suprised if I start crunching numbers looking for a way to offset that.

But as a narrative sacrifice, its pretty unsatisfying.
For what its worth, waywarding just slows how the network decays, we need to actually do Rewarding which is Snorri action only to get re rolls to deal with nat 1s and stuff. So Snorri actions do still need to be committed.

RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

Sorcerer Supreme.

Very tired girl.