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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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Mr8 said:
You know what? This whole situation feels pretty meh to me, after having read through it over the past few days.

Agreeing to take up the Waywarding was a conscious decision that has an obviously real effect of adding more obligations to Snorri's (and retainers) list that will result in a mechanical trade-off as they now have Waywarding actions they should/need to take, in effect reducing the amount of things they can do.

I find it a bit disheartening that for some, the second they're confronted with the trade-off (i.e. feeling particularly constrained by AP, either Snorri's & retainers), the first thing they do is go 'How can we circumvent this trade-off that was practically unanimously approved.' and settle on doing things like retinue expansion, which to me feels like ignoring the spirit of the request; a kind of deliberate outsourcing of the task.

Meh
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Ok this whole post and the logic here feels really off to me. We did not "practically unanimously" vote to sacrifice actions on this. It was explicitly noted in the update that retainers could take the Waywarding action and my vote for it was predicated on that fact and the fact that we can acquire new retainer actions fairly easy. Maybe you voted for it because you wanted to cut down on the number of actions available to us but you can't just project that logic onto the whole thread.

Furthermore expanding the Hearth Guard is not ignoring the spirit of the request or outsourcing the task. Ideally it shouldn't affect how we fulfill the task at all. I certainly won't be voting to spend Snorri actions on Waywarding and will be voting to spend a Hearth Guard action on it every turn regardless of whether we expand the Hearth Guard or not. The only thing expanding the guard changes is how many actions we have available to spend on other stuff. Snorri will also have to be personally involved in runing/reruning the stones himself regardless of the state of the Hearth Guard so we cannot ever truly outsource it Snorri will always be personally responsible for the important stuff.
 
Dark as Silver said:
I disagree with the global statement that retainers are more trustworthy. I trust Otrek as much as any of our retainers and more than most. Retainers are dwarves that we've already demonstrated a great amount of trust in, it doesn't mean that they have some property that makes them more trustworthy than any others, or we wouldn't also be swearing them to secrecy as part of this. It just establishes the baseline of that much trust is enough.
Snorri even specifically asked about retainers so its clear that it wasn't some unspoken dwarven and in his response Alric even mentioned that some dwarves would be upset, so I think you're misrepresenting how retainers are viewed as one and the same as the dwarf they're sworn to.

Alric did not say to talk about the waystones beyond anyone. We asked about retainers and non dwarves and he answered. He's giving us as much leeway as he can to interpret this because Runesmiths do not command other Runesmiths
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That is what we call strawman. Otrek was one of the very few dwarfs outside of our retainers and our Clan that can be seen as trustworthy.

I am hardly misinterpreting how retainers work, what they do reflects on us. Like how we send them farming favor we will never use.

If Alric had not said that we can study Waystones I would not touch them at all. He is our Elder and it would be remarkably out of character (not to mention wasteful) to do as you propose.

Jreengus said:
Furthermore expanding the Hearth Guard is not ignoring the spirit of the request or outsourcing the task.
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That is not Dark as Silver is proposing. He's trying to get us to spend actions to create an organization outside of the Hearthguard so we don't have to spend personal or retainer actions.

That goes against the our responsibilities-which would be immensely out of character-which is why I see it as intolerable.
 
MrHobbit said:
That is what we call strawman. Otrek was one of the very few dwarfs outside of our retainers and our Clan that can be seen as trustworthy.

I am hardly misinterpreting how retainers work, what they do reflects on us. Like how we send them farming favor we will never use.

If Alric had not said that we can study Waystones I would not touch them at all. He is our Elder and it would be remarkably out of character (not to mention wasteful) to do as you propose.


That is not Dark as Silver is proposing. He's trying to get us to spend actions to create an organization outside of the Hearthguard so we don't have to spend personal or retainer actions.

That goes against the our responsibilities-which would be immensely out of character-which is why I see it as intolerable.
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Jreengus was actually speaking to Mr8 who is (I assume) opposed to both plans. However was specifically complaining about expanding the Hearthguard because I assume he felt it was the more popular one.
So she wasn't defending my plan specifically, rather the concept of recruiting more people to help fill this oath in general.
 
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soulcake said:
And no you can't finagle/prod a Runesmith to just end up "following," your retainers around and abide by their oaths.
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The only way I could see a runesmith following your retinue around is if a certain unorthodox runelord had recently come into a surplus of troll-tongue, but yeah, swearing the oaths and wearing the uniform (or as uniform as the rule of pride would allow) would be right out. I could see a group of runesmiths wearing insignia when part of a larger formation in war, but when the immediate need is over, everyone goes back to their workshops and grumbles about the experience.
 
just had a interesting thought. Gronti's work better the more detailed they are, but what if they were detailed, but hollow? Liked a hollowed out statue? Would it still work? Was imagining something like a giant goat gronti that could carry ironbreakers inside of it to be deployed like a APC.
 
tri2 said:
just had a interesting thought. Gronti's work better the more detailed they are, but what if they were detailed, but hollow? Liked a hollowed out statue? Would it still work? Was imagining something like a giant goat gronti that could carry ironbreakers inside of it to be deployed like a APC.
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We think but we've never had soulcake comment as far as I remember. I would hope soulcake would have told us we were on a non starter or something that Snorri didn't know would work, rather than waiting for the Mammoth Gronti field hospital to graduate from discussion to a voted on plan.
 
Dark as Silver said:
We think but we've never had soulcake comment as far as I remember. I would hope soulcake would have told us we were on a non starter or something that Snorri didn't know would work, rather than waiting for the Mammoth Gronti field hospital to graduate from discussion to a voted on plan.
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that suddenly gave my the amusing thought of a giant steel gromril gronti that can eat greater daemons and dumps them into a stomach room full of lava enchanted with conduction and toughness runes.
 
tri2 said:
just had a interesting thought. Gronti's work better the more detailed they are, but what if they were detailed, but hollow? Liked a hollowed out statue? Would it still work? Was imagining something like a giant goat gronti that could carry ironbreakers inside of it to be deployed like a APC.
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And watch as it warps and twists on the first strike.

Seems borderline useless to me, unless we find something even greater and more ruinously expensive than Adamant.
 
JohnGaster1987 said:
What about a Set of Grontis specialized against the chaos gods and their servants?
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- Chaosbane: Your deeds and your works, your banner especially, are the bane of the chaotic. Your works will burn the flesh of beastmen and daemon, driving fear and terror into the minds of the former as well.

That's already a passive effect of all our works. Giving it an extra Rune of Spite to stack on top of that might be useful, but I don't think that it's actually needed. Especially with Snorri's own Winds denied at - 35.

It's a nice idea to counter either greater demons or hordes of smaller ones. No doubt about that.
 
Czes said:
- Chaosbane: Your deeds and your works, your banner especially, are the bane of the chaotic. Your works will burn the flesh of beastmen and daemon, driving fear and terror into the minds of the former as well.

That's already a passive effect of all our works. Giving it an extra Rune of Spite to stack on top of that might be useful, but I don't think that it's actually needed. Especially with Snorri's own Winds denied at - 35.

It's a nice idea to counter either greater demons or hordes of smaller ones. No doubt about that.
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Why the rune of Spite? That one just reflects damage we take...
 
Dark as Silver said:
What about them?
Do you have more words? Specialised how?
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well sadly I'm not the most knowledgeable on Warhammer Fantasy. Thus not really someone that good at fleshing the idea out. I saw the lava trap Gronti idea and thought well if that won't work why not a group of Gronti who were designed to counteract a certain Chaos gods forces. An if this Gronti is fighting blank forces they add benefits to either the fight force around them against it(this could be a possible anti-Nurgle I guess with stone skin) or to themselves in order to be the center of a attack I guess like I said not the bestone to flesh this out.
 
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JohnGaster1987 said:
I saw the lava trap Gronti idea and thought well if that won't work why not a group of Gronti who were designed to counteract a certain Chaos gods forces.
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Oh well I can help there at least.
The lava gronti wouldn't work. It was a joke.
And in case more people don't realise that it was a joke, Conduction couldn't be used in this context as its a weapon rune, and because its a MRune so can't also be applied to a Gronti which already needed a MWaking to function. Its not clear that lesser runes like Fire would be able to keep Lava molten and would probably give the Gronti fire punches rather than making it red hot or something. I assume the use of plural on conduction and toughness runes was a oversight and not an intention to break the Rule of Three limit of runes.
 
Dark as Silver said:
Oh well I can help there at least.
The lava gronti wouldn't work. It was a joke.
And in case more people don't realise that it was a joke, Conduction couldn't be used in this context as its a weapon rune, and because its a MRune so can't also be applied to a Gronti which already needed a MWaking to function. Its not clear that lesser runes like Fire would be able to keep Lava molten and would probably give the Gronti fire punches rather than making it red hot or something. I assume the use of plural on conduction and toughness runes was a oversight and not an intention to break the Rule of Three limit of runes.
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Snorri's workshop has a lava based trap, Iirc, and i doubt he used a Master Rune for it, so it's quite likely that there are runes that can Melt stone, or at least keep it Melted.
 
Regarding Gronti's to build the one I want to build the most actually is a massive fire breathing Dragon Gronti made of solid Steel. And by "massive" I mean literally as large as Snorri can manage so either as large as the Master Rune of Waking can support without suffering performance issues or, if that's not an issue, as large as Snorri can make it in a turn.

Master Rune of Waking(Magma Wyrm Heart), Rune of Fire(Dragon Gas Sac)x2

Gas Sacs because those are the organs that let them breathe fire so I imagine using them as a reagent on a Rune of Fire on a dragon shaped Gronti should let it breathe fire. We know that 3 Runes of Fire as a combo act as a flame thrower so it should work.
 
IronFist said:
Snorri's workshop has a lava based trap, Iirc, and i doubt he used a Master Rune for it, so it's quite likely that there are runes that can Melt stone, or at least keep it Melted.
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Or he uses a big smelter of some kind. Or it uses multiple fire runes. Heres what we know about weapon based lava runes:
soulcake said:
Rune of Fire mostly. Lava's unwieldy on most weapons so development in that direction isn't that strong. Three runes of burning on a Grudgethrower make the boulder real hot though! Sorta like throwing a glob of barely held together lava that explodes on contact. That's a freebie for ya.
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Now building I think get more potent effects by working in a building array or whatever so maybe 3 runes of burning on a building trap is enough to make lava.
None of that matters because between MWaking and Toughness, the Gronti only has one available rune and we seem to need 3 to get more or less the effect needed.

Also, all of the arguments you didn't dispute. However if you want another: While I was dismissive that hollowing out the Gronti would be a massive design weakness, if you hollow it out and then heat it to around 1000 degrees, I think you are approaching the point that this might harm structural integrity. Yes the Rune of toughness is there, but thats still weaker than a not heated Gronti with the Rune.
 
Still just waiting for gronti power armor. Or gronti war suits. I just want one Warhammer quest to go full warmachine is that so much to ask?
 
Keep in mind that Gronti can't be mass produced. Gronti require Master Rune of Awakening. Each Gronti has to be a unique make.

Anyways, @soulcake is taking a lot of inspiration and worldbuilding about the Fimir from @torroar 's WHF dynasty quest. They are a doozy. For example, one of the nasty tricks they can do is use artillery to fire projectiles that have sealed daemons within, upon impact (either up on top of enemy walls for behind said walls) the seal is broken and the daemons pop up. Projectiles can be amulet sized so they can basically shotgun entire areas with Surprise!daemons either in and among enemy forces or behind enemy lines to cause havoc.

They are going to be tough even for near-Golden Age Elves and Dwarfs to put down.
 
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aceraptor said:
Keep in mind that Gronti can't be mass produced. Gronti require Master Rune of Awakening. Each Gronti has to be a unique make.

Anyways, @soulcake is taking a lot of inspiration and worldbuilding about the Fimir from @torroar 's WHF dynasty quest. They are a doozy. For example, one of the nasty tricks they can do is use artillery to fire projectiles that have sealed daemons within, upon impact (either up on top of enemy walls for behind said walls) the seal is broken and the daemons pop up. Projectiles can be amulet sized so they can basically shotgun entire areas with Surprise!daemons.

They are going to be tough even for near-Golden Age Elves and Dwarfs to put down.
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suspect that what gonna help drive the elves and dwarves close together nothing like killing foes on the battlefield together to bring empires closer together(most likely they will need to work together too)
 
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aceraptor said:
Keep in mind that Gronti can't be mass produced. Gronti require Master Rune of Awakening. Each Gronti has to be a unique make.

Anyways, @soulcake is taking a lot of inspiration and worldbuilding about the Fimir from @torroar 's WHF dynasty quest. They are a doozy. For example, one of the nasty tricks they can do is use artillery to fire projectiles that have sealed daemons within, upon impact (either up on top of enemy walls for behind said walls) the seal is broken and the daemons pop up. Projectiles can be amulet sized so they can basically shotgun entire areas with Surprise!daemons either in and among enemy forces or behind enemy lines to cause havoc.

They are going to be tough even for near-Golden Age Elves and Dwarfs to put down.
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The great incursion is still within living memory.
Not saying this won't be a problem, but "surprise demons" we can deal with.
Artillery that explodes into demons may be harder to counter than portals, but at least its not "endless demons that respawn as you kill them".
 
At least they won't be running around with albish oracle battlefield simulators to predict our movement and plans before we would have managed to decide on one and voted for it.
 
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