RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

[soulcake]

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Discord.

On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)

 

[Andmeuths]

[X] [Secret] Tell them: Gromrilklad rewards altered, the highest levels of the Cult made aware but sworn to secrecy until you reveal the secret yourself.
[X] [Letters]: Knowledge about Avelorn's Magical Traditions
[X] [Letters]: Knowledge about Vaul's priesthood
[X] Plan Obvious

 

[Redhead222]

[X] [Secret] Tell them: Gromrilklad rewards altered, the highest levels of the Cult made aware but sworn to secrecy until you reveal the secret yourself.
[X] [Letters]: Knowledge about Avelorn's Magical Traditions
[X] [Letters]: Knowledge about Vaul's priesthood
[X] Plan Obvious

Sure sounds fine

 

[LightLan]

[X] Plan Obvious
[X] [Secret] Tell them: Gromrilklad rewards altered, the highest levels of the Cult made aware but sworn to secrecy until you reveal the secret yourself.

 

[Alratan]

A consideration on the prosthetic eye, we may need to complete another link in the Mind of Things chain to do it, and it's also possible that the initial version wouldn't be very good, like the original prosthetic limbs, and we need to complete another tier of either Mind of Things or the Secrets of Light to get it up to acceptable quality.

Talking of secrets of light, I wonder if there's any knowledge we can purchase from the elves on the mundane properties of light. It's important for both Hysh and Azyr (producing light and detecting the light of the stars/sky respectively), so they might well have investigated it in reasonable detail.

I wonder if it would be possible to leverage our current relationship into this kind of broader correspondence with elven scholars. Something like the historical Republic of Letters. Of course, that couldn't extend to sharing runic secrets, but more mundane knowledge might be allowable.

I do wonder what Snorri makes of the way he can just buy books on elven forms of magic that would be secrets the dwarves would literally kill to keep if they belonged to them, but that's a bit of a side point. Does he feel like he's accruing some debt for taking their knowledge without reciprocating with any of his own, or does he feel that if they share it freely that's their problem/choice?

 

[_The_Bomb]

[X] [Secret] Tell them: Gromrilklad rewards altered, the highest levels of the Cult made aware but sworn to secrecy until you reveal the secret yourself.

Not going to lie; I want to tell them because I want to see their reaction and think their vow of secrecy will let us do so without consequences.

 

[OzymandiasAgain]

I have to ask: Why is Otrek already dying when Snorri is so much older than him and is still going strong? Is Otrek so grievously wounded that he cant sustain his life anymore? Or is it something about runecraft that extends a dwarf's life like Kragg the Grim?

Click to shrink...

Well Runelords do seem to live longer. But on the whole, lore says that Dawi can keep living out of sheer determination, as long as they have a goal. If they believe their task is fulfilled, then they will die. This true especially for the older dawi.

 

[DerechteNikolaus]

[X] Plan Obvious
[X] [Secret] Tell them: Gromrilklad rewards altered, the highest levels of the Cult made aware but sworn to secrecy until you reveal the secret yourself.
[X] [Letters]: Knowledge about Avelorn's Magical Traditions
[X] [Letters]: Knowledge about Vaul's priesthood

 

[DragonParadox]

I do wonder what Snorri makes of the way he can just buy books on elven forms of magic that would be secrets the dwarves would literally kill to keep if they belonged to them, but that's a bit of a side point. Does he feel like he's accruing some debt for taking their knowledge without reciprocating with any of his own, or does he feel that if they share it freely that's their problem/choice?

Click to shrink...

I think Snori gets that the elves can be freer with their secrets because they are not actually for the elves' alone. He would never say it in front of an elf of course but he does know even Daemons can cast Wind magic, so can beastmen. Wind magic does not belong the Asur the same way runecraft belongs to the dwarfs.

 

[gale]

[X] Plan Obvious
[X] [Secret] Tell them: Gromrilklad rewards altered, the highest levels of the Cult made aware but sworn to secrecy until you reveal the secret yourself.
[X] [Letters]: Knowledge about Avelorn's Magical Traditions
[X] [Letters]: Knowledge about Vaul's priesthood

 

[Alucard Bellsing]

[X] Plan Obvious
[X] [Secret] Tell them: Gromrilklad rewards altered, the highest levels of the Cult made aware but sworn to secrecy until you reveal the secret yourself.
[X] [Letters]: Knowledge about Avelorn's Magical Traditions
[X] [Letters]: Knowledge about Vaul's priesthood

 

[In_lurk_shadow]

[X] [Secret] Tell them: Gromrilklad rewards altered, the highest levels of the Cult made aware but sworn to secrecy until you reveal the secret yourself.
[X] [Letters]: Knowledge about Vaul's priesthood
[X] [Letters]: Knowledge about Avelorn

 

[veekie]

Well Runelords do seem to live longer. But on the whole, lore says that Dawi can keep living out of sheer determination, as long as they have a goal. If they believe their task is fulfilled, then they will die. This true especially for the older dawi.

Click to shrink...

Snorri's job ain't done till every single dwarf, present and future has everything they need and can get from him!

AP Hell is Immortality!

 

[Raeyx]

She puts down the metal and stares at it.

Silvery, shimmering, yet incomplete.

She is missing something, some ingredient needed to purify the metal. It had taken her decades to figure out the meaning behind Lord Snorri's cryptic words but when she had, everything began falling into place. Much of the time freed now that Bronn was out on his Journey and after having removed herself from her position in the Clan's Elder Council, at least temporarily, had been put into researching this advanced form of Gromril. Better, harder, stronger and who knew what else.

The path was clear, its end some unknown distance away but at the very least Bara could rest easy knowing she was at least on the right one.

Click to shrink...

Say didn't Snorri resolve to invite Bara to the Brotherhood of Dron back when she figured out Adamant? I imagine she would have gotten access to his master rune if she was a member, or does she actually have to MAKE Adamant first before they give her an invite?

 

[RiyeLink]

[X] [Secret] Tell them: Gromrilklad rewards altered, the highest levels of the Cult made aware but sworn to secrecy until you reveal the secret yourself.
[X] [Letters]: Knowledge about Avelorn's Magical Traditions
[X] [Letters]: Knowledge about Vaul's priesthood
[X] Plan Obvious

 

[Jreengus]

Say didn't Snorri resolve to invite Bara to the Brotherhood of Dron back when she figured out Adamant? I imagine she would have gotten access to his master rune if she was a member, or does she actually have to MAKE Adamant first before they give her an invite?

Click to shrink...

Yep, she needs to show us a bar of adamant:

You sent her the letter, the same one you got about sending them a sample of Adamant.

The ball is in her court.

Click to shrink...

 

[Raeyx]

Yep, she needs to show us a bar of adamant:

Click to shrink...

Ah, I didnt't see that post, my thanks.

 

[buli-buli]

[X] Plan Obvious
[X] [Secret] Tell them: Gromrilklad rewards altered, the highest levels of the Cult made aware but sworn to secrecy until you reveal the secret yourself.
[X] [Letters]: Knowledge about Avelorn's Magical Traditions
[X] [Letters]: Knowledge about Vaul's priesthood

 

[Ptolemy03]

[X] Plan Obvious

 

[MrHobbit]

[ ] Princely Hunting: [Cost: 10 Favour from Kraka Drakk] Prince Gloin will go out and slay [Write-in] monster. Gain mats. It would be ridiculous for you to ask your King to go gallivanting around the North to find something for you to make a Rune out of, but a Prince or Princess? Well, that's just you helping them build their legend through the slaying of monsters and aiding their elders. The rarer the monster the greater the reward, but it may take longer to find. Monsters slain by Gloin provide more material by virtue of being the entire beast rather than just ordering a singular organ.

Click to shrink...

Perhaps the mentions of Prince Gloin should be changed to Gimli here? As Gloin is going to be taking up the full duties as King of Kraka Drakk within seven years.

 

[Rai-Ju]

I have been thinking about why the rewards change if we talk about chainforger. It seems obvious that while we reap benefits and standing for letting them know that soon any good enough runesmith can make and maintain the chainmails.

But what of the consequenses? They will be ready to hog for themselves any time they can get with chainforgers, which will be hot commodity for at minimum centuries before they really start to proliferate. It would make the chainforgers we meant for the use of all runesmiths into political tools. Depending on our choice here is whether the ball is in orders and other such polities court by handing out time with chainforger to runesmiths in exchange for their works. If we dont tell them, at Rhunkalbrogg runesmiths will start scheduling for themselves before orders can react and it will be orders who are currying favor with runesmiths to get them to sell their works to them instead of other orders.

I dont find either result particularly objectionable myself, but I think its important to remember that our works will be political conundrums, whether we want it or not. This question is not about whether its the nice thing to tell prospective customers that you will not be the only supplier in near future. Its about who the chainforgers will be for. Runesmiths as individuals who work for their own ends or runesmiths as part of the orders and guilds that commission chainmail in exchange for time with the means of production.

 

[SakSak]

I'm not seeing the part that's negative here. The more aid we can render the better things will be for the North and potentially beyond.

Click to shrink...

To be fair, we can put multiple retainer actions on Render Aid, or Dreng, or whatever.

I just don't want to expand because the narrative behind it is displeasing for me.

Click to shrink...

There is also the politics angle.
The larger our personal guard, the more importance we imply on our person. if our guard is greater than that of the King's for example, are we not saying we are more important than the King?
Because that is what the Hearth Guard is, our personal guard retinue.
This is also why these formations tend to be on the smaller side: The primary purpose of such guard units is traditionally to guard their Elder, to whom said guards have tied not just their fortune but also their honour upon until the end of their life.

We're just being extra odd for an elder, and commanding our personal guard to leave our home; not protect us (which would be the expected task), but rather go forth help other dwarves.
We're powerful, and well regarded enough that this is called eccentric rather than barking raving mad (because it goes completely contrary against most established traditions regarding personal guard units).
This doesn't matter for a small unit, because it is expected for an elder runelord of our stature to have personal guards, and what a few personal guards do is no one elses business to anyone expect said runelord. Their honour is the same as our honour.

We can get away with our current unit or maybe slightly larger, because we keep them busy; We have a clear and constant need for our current retinue, even if said need is odd from the point of view of your average dwarf. 'That's just the Gift Giver', they say. We're known by reputation as an odd duckling anyway.
Basically, having a rotation of guards around? Expected. Having several extra shifts of guards around in addition to the basic rotation? Well, instead of just standing around, wouldn't they be better used doing something? Particularly given that they experienced elders in their own right - they could be contributing with training the younger generations or whatever their expertise would allow them to do. Opportunity cost, in essence.
But as long as there is a clear need to match the numbers, it's fine.

And yet this excuse gets thinner and thinner the more elders and experienced dawi we begin to command. if we wanted a cadre of rangers to scour mountaintops for lost Dawi, why have we made these rangers our personal guard rather than discuss with the head of rangers in our hold? After all, we clearly believe there is an issue of lost dawi, a serious one at hand given how we keep sending our personal guard in great numbers to tackle this:Are we implying the standard ranger forces can't do their job? Are we usurping the mantle of responsibility from those rangers? Are the ranges of our hold incompetent, is their leading elder inept?
Same for healers, miners, etc etc.
As our numbers grow, we need increasing justification for those numbers to make sense in a wider Dawi society and to account for the opportunity cost implied. At some point being odd and eccentric turn to being regarded as being excessively prideful, then selfish etc etc.

So we don't want to bloat the numbers of the Hearth Guard just because we can. We should increase them only if we see a clear reason to do so.

 

[MrHobbit]

I have been thinking about why the rewards change if we talk about chainforger. It seems obvious that while we reap benefits and standing for letting them know that soon any good enough runesmith can make and maintain the chainmails.

But what of the consequenses? They will be ready to hog for themselves any time they can get with chainforgers, which will be hot commodity for at minimum centuries before they really start to proliferate. It would make the chainforgers we meant for the use of all runesmiths into political tools. Depending on our choice here is whether the ball is in orders and other such polities court by handing out time with chainforger to runesmiths in exchange for their works. If we dont tell them, at Rhunkalbrogg runesmiths will start scheduling for themselves before orders can react and it will be orders who are currying favor with runesmiths to get them to sell their works to them instead of other orders.

I dont find either result particularly objectionable myself, but I think its important to remember that our works will be political conundrums, whether we want it or not. This question is not about whether its the nice thing to tell prospective customers that you will not be the only supplier in near future. Its about who the chainforgers will be for. Runesmiths as individuals who work for their own ends or runesmiths as part of the orders and guilds that commission chainmail in exchange for time with the means of production.

Click to shrink...

Eh, I think it's more of an issue of honesty. From a human perspective anyways. If dwarfs saw an issue with it, I don't think it would have been an option. We're going to be releasing the design in nineteen years and we won't have accepted the commission by then.

Runesmiths aren't going to hog gromril chain to themselves, many of them will hog the Chainforger, but that is a given thanks to the Rule of Pride. With all of the Major Holds there will be at least one Runesmith who is willing to make a Chainforger for the Metalworker's Guild rather than themselves.

The Chainforger isn't going to change how Runesmiths function. It just means that those making armor can jack up the prices.

Also, in either case, whether we tell them now or they find out at Rhunkalbrogg, I imagine that the Cult of Grungni will want to commission us simply because we're the one who invented it. I mean, sure, they'll be able to get another Runelord to make it in a century or so, but like, Snorri is the one who discovered it.

 

[Burned_Cookie]

[...]

Click to shrink...

I think you´re right, sadly enough.

I want a gigantic group of experts at our disposal, but at some point we would start stepping on feet.

 

[Jreengus]

I think you´re right, sadly enough.

I want a gigantic group of experts at our disposal, but at some point we would start stepping on feet.

Click to shrink...

Worth noting according to Soulcake we can go up to 300 before what we start running into political problems, as long as we keep them busy. 300 is quite a group of experts.

Kings have the largest retinues on average, because a King has a lot of stuff he can send his retainers to do. Guard important places and people, act as messengers, protect his person during War, and a whole host of other stuff. The thing of having a larger retinue is its basically saying, I have taken on a lot of responsibilities and these guys help me fulfill them + I am important enough to warrant this many people defending me.

It's a political statement at its core just as much as it is a simple change of numbers.

The nuance is what you're gonna be having those guys doing. If they do nothing, it's wasteful, but if you're using them the way you have been Snorri reckons no one is gonna be too upset. It will likely stay that way as long as you don't infringe on the rights of Kings or powerful lords or what have you, and keep the Hearth Guard to being what is essentially Snorri's personal beatstick when in times of war but are otherwise roaming the North doing good deeds and helping the average Dwarf.

Look, if you keep them to the spirit of their founding purpose you can get away with a lot, in the Far North at least. That's a consequence/benefit of your high Standing in the region. Maybe. Snorri thinks that at least.

By his reckoning 300 is fine, as long as they're always out doing something. Going above that is gonna say something, but what that entails is on you to make clear through your actions.
Who knows, you may get other options if their numbers increase higher.

This is them doing that for the stuff that's been in circulation for a while now like Hearthstones and Azrilwut, but also gently asking them to prioritize figuring out this new material you've found like with Dronril, and sometimes a mix of both for sorta new but sorta old mats like Zhufazul. Really it depends on how long the Material's been known and in use. Its not like they don't benefit either, at least narratively. Research is key, and a Runelord's request for your notes is a good enough kick in the pants for them to focus on it.

Click to shrink...

 

[Alratan]

On the subject of retainers, remember that the current dwarven society isn't actually that old. There should be many living dwarves who remember the time before the Ancestors completely reshaped dwarven society. Saying, for example, that having a large number of retainers indicates that you think you're more important than the King implies a hard rule that I don't think is set in stone yet. If we just had large numbers of retainers sitting around doing nothing that could quite easily be seen as the case. However, if our Hearthguard keeps on going out and successfully doing good across the far north, it could easily become a prototype for another type of transnational organisation in dwarven society in addition to the Cults and Guilds.

The fact that our retainers aren't (just) a standing military force is also relevant. It's not going to be seen as a standing army that's an implicit challenge to the King's status as the Hold's warleader. It's something quite different to that, something complementary rather than competing. It's the same as how a guild or cult having more members in a hold than the King's retinue isn't a problem.

And this isn't about self-aggrandisement for Snorri, it's about helping other dwarves to be more productive by providing a structure for them to collaborate within. This fits in with his broader ethos, and it's an example of another facet of his contribution to the dwarves of the Karaz Ankor, not just giving them better physical tools, but also better institutions.

A much more speculative thing, but given previous conversations about Otrek I've been wondering about the Hearthguard being a second career for retiring dwarves, extending their lives on the 'a change is as good as a rest' principle by allowing them to take on an honourable role while also giving up their full responsibilities. Obviously this wouldn't be something for Kings unless an Ancestor God sets up such an institution so that it wouldn't be a step down to join.