RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

[soulcake]

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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)

 

[Sir LagsAlot]

There are tons of caves that are parallel to the underway and exist both above and below it as Tri said these are fortified tunnels there is no encompassing shell of underground defenses underneath our workshop. The cave system we found that elder wyrm in was only one such cave system and Snorri noted the existence of another such cave system in the underway when visiting his mother IIRC.

 

[TehChron]

This isn't gromril chain where there is a chance that we were the first guy to do it.

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Yeah, but BA and the breadth of experience Snorri has accumulated between himself, Yorris expertise, and Valmas own efforts are definitely enough to point at him having a more unique perspective than most on the subject.

Forged Limb as well is a very big deal given its interconnected with the Waking line of Runes.

 

[Aventur]

Thungni is certainly interested in the Movement of Things, I do not deny that. But we can only make fourteen progress on it, unless Yorri comes in which case we can get 28-35 progress if I remember correctly. Somewhere thereabouts anyways. And to get that much progress we have to ignore Armoured Maidens, making it so that both it and the Gazulite commissions are late.

There are undoubtedly Runelords that have gone further along the Movement of Things research line than us, most likely further along than even 35 progress.

This isn't gromril chain where there is a chance that we were the first guy to do it.

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You are the first person to suggest sacrificing the commission, I didn't argue for that and have never seen anyone else do it either.

To clarify:
I am arguing against going all in on the basket next turn since it is not necessary to achieve the stated objective of completing it in time for Rhunkalbrogg. 3/1, 3/0/1, 0/4 and so on would all suffice while leaving us room to choose in case an opportunity presents itself.
I am arguing for putting 1(!) Snorri action into movement of things if(!) Yorri turns up. Yorri gives us 1d2+1 progress per prod, we have 4 prods and will presumably get another 1 or 2 when he arrives (we got free prods for his previous visits). We are guaranteed one advancement on Movement in any case and would get 2 if we are really lucky.

As for the relative importance and the progress made by others, who knows? We have literally no clues to support or disprove that. However, we know that Snorri has discovered unique solutions before and can also look at action cost.
Gromrilchains cost a combined 22 actions.
MPurification/Adamantmaker cost a combined 31 actions and was awarded after the 4th step.
We have already made 26 actions of advancement on Movement and would bring this to at least 36. This would also be the 4th step of its chain.

 

[MrHobbit]

Yeah, but BA and the breadth of experience Snorri has accumulated between himself, Yorris expertise, and Valmas own efforts are definitely enough to point at him having a more unique perspective than most on the subject.

Forged Limb as well is a very big deal given its interconnected with the Waking line of Runes.

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That is not equivalent to it being a big enough deal that Thungni would take time out of his decade to poke us.

Also, what I said was the maximum amount progress we can do. Seven is much more probable by the time of Rhunkalbrogg, which barely completes The Movement of Things.

Edit:

You are the first person to suggest sacrificing the commission, I didn't argue for that and have never seen anyone else do it either.

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I mentioned it because I was illustrating how unlikely it is for Thungni to notice us for Gronti research. That was the best case scenario progress wise.

[ ] The Movement of Things Pt. 4: [Cost: (10 -3) =7 actions] Journeyman of the Odd and Mind for Constructs will proc. With all of the extant examples of the Rune you now have thanks to your trade with Valma, you now have a deeper understanding of just what parts of it draws upon the Deep Magic. Improving the strength, efficiency and utility of the Rune of Waking can't be feasibly done through simple, relatively speaking, changes now. No, you can already tell that you'll have to manipulate the connection to the Deep Magic somehow.

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We will only be able to poke the top part of Deep Magic. It would hardly be revolutionary.

 

[TehChron]

That is not equivalent to it being a big enough deal that Thungni would take time out of his decade to poke us.

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I didnt say it was

Just that Snorri could get farther than most

 

[MrHobbit]

I didnt say it was

Just that Snorri could get farther than most

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That is what Aventur was proposing. Which I was arguing against.

If Yorri turns up we can use him to significantly improve Mind/Movement of things. This wil increase our understanding of deep magic which is, as far as I can tell, the "impress Thungni" research. It may also improve our prosthetics which Valaya would probably like.

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[Jreengus]

In my mind, meeting an ancestor is something that happens if they are interested in you and you are in their general vicinity. I don't see Thungni going out of his way to visit Snorri or any other far away runesmith, at most he would send us a note/item like Smednir did and even that is doubtful. As such I expect the current conclave to be our final chance to interact with any ancestors (except Gazul who is a wanderer) and Thungni has the most reason to be in attendance.
If the conclave isn't in Karaz-a-Karak we might meet Grungni since he is an awesome runesmith himself but Valaya would have very little reason to attend.

My reasoning for Thungni caring about Movement of Things is something like this:
-Thungni coined the term Deep Magic and his apprentices/children kept bugging him about it for centuries until he finally confirmed it wasn't a figure of speech. Apparently no one but him knows much about it.
-When we forged Barak Azamar the statue of Thungnis eyes shone like crazy. Barak Azamars standout features are Deep Magic and being T5. I believe that the statues reaction was due to the connection to Deep Magic.
-The flavor text for Movement of Things makes it clear that the next part is about manipulating Deep Magic more directly. It also clarifies that our understanding increased thanks to Valmas runes even though she didn't know much about Deep Magic. From this I take that insights gained from Yorri would count as our achievement.

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While I agree that normally the ancestors don't go out of their way for a single dwarf I'm expecting them to travel all over the Karaz Ankor trying to set stuff up in the best possible shape before they leave at which point dropping in on certain dwarves becomes a lot more likely. For the deep magic stuff I don't agree with the conclusion that deep magic was the thing that got Thungni's attention there, I think it's a lot more likely that it was the T5 so I'm not sold on the idea that deep magic is the path to Thungni's heart.

 

[Alratan]

Given that Valaya is apparently the Ancestor God who taught the dwaves to make wards, researching the Wardstone Rune and bringing them to the Grand Comclave to honour the memory of the lost runesmiths of Karag Dum could well be more impressive to her than researching her basket.

The runes on the basket seem much less likely to make a difference on the scale of scrying defence.

 

[MrHobbit]

Given that Valaya is apparently the Ancestor God who taught the dwaves to make wards, researching the Wardstone Rune and bringing them to the Grand Comclave to honour the memory of the lost runesmiths of Karag Dum could well be more impressive to her than researching her basket.

The runes on the basket seem much less likely to make a difference on the scale of scrying defence.

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>_>

This statement is just wrong. The Wardstone is not a Ward. They are just similar names because the word ward can cover the purpose of both of them. We do not even know if soulcake is using Wards as canon for Rhunrikki Strollar. Valaya has much bigger things to manage than a single Runesmith discovering a Rune that can conceal the bearer from enemy scryers.

The Basket is more likely to have her poke us again because it holds a more personal connection to her. Although even if she talks with us, the basket would not be the primary reason. I want it because I would prefer to have Grungni's and Valaya's challenges done just in case we meet them again.

 

[Aventur]

We will only be able to poke the top part of Deep Magic. It would hardly be revolutionary.

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The fact that even the top part of Deep Magic requires the staggering investment of 36 actions tells me it would be a big deal. Even if it was not revolutionary, among runesmiths I expect the deliberate manipulation of Deep Magic to be an achievement that is at least on par with making adamant.

Or I might be pinning too many hopes onto it and just dislike the idea of passing up on all that free progress again.

 

[MrHobbit]

The fact that even the top part of Deep Magic requires the staggering investment of 36 actions tells me it would be a big deal. Even if it was not revolutionary, among runesmiths I expect the deliberate manipulation of Deep Magic to be an achievement that is at least on par with making adamant.

Or I might be pinning too many hopes onto it and just dislike the idea of passing up on all that free progress again.

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And Thungni did not poke us for discovering adamant. It is certainly impressive. There is no doubt about that. But you are seriously underestimating how valuable Thungni's time is and overestimating Snorri's importance.

Scratching the surface of deep magic will simply not be enough to get Thungni to really dedicate more than a passing thought. We'd probably have to be at, hmm, The Movement of Things Pt. 6/7 or so.

Remember that Yorri is almost certainly even further along than we are.

 

[BungieONI]

I doubt this random cave system we only just found under our workshop is connected to the underway.

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It does not have to be.

Okay let me lay this out:

Kraka Drakk has defenses in the Underway, and defenses in the massive labyrinth of tunnels and caverns that Debra the dragon came up through. These dragon caverns were defended and considerable effort was spent building said defenses. The action spent exploring the deeps was exploring these dragon caverns, thus those defended dragon caverns are connected to these caverns under Snorri's workshop and thus there is somekind of dwarf presence in the area and that presence in my mind negates most of the potential urgency in doing anything about the workshop caverns.

I used underway to encapsulate all of this underground geography for convenience.

We will need to work on them at some point, but these caverns don't exist in an undefended vacuum of territory, so it isn't urgent.

There are tons of caves that are parallel to the underway and exist both above and below it as Tri said these are fortified tunnels there is no encompassing shell of underground defenses underneath our workshop. The cave system we found that elder wyrm in was only one such cave system and Snorri noted the existence of another such cave system in the underway when visiting his mother IIRC.

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I am not making the claim that there is some all encompasing shell: I'm making the claim that after Grimnir's whole acts about underway defenses and the attacks made against Kraka Drakk from below, that there is some level of dwarf defensive presence nearby even if they are not in the workshop caverns themselves, because that's all I need for my point. Which I'm going to remind everybody since it seems to have been a bit lost, was made in the context of Chaos or Hashut forces trying to get into our workshop by way of those tunnels.

 

[Sir LagsAlot]

Snip

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The action we took notes that the depths under Karak Drakk are specifically defended but that they aren't mapped because they're simply too large well we mapped a bit of them and they turned up under our workshop and as we don't fall within the overland defenses of Karak Drakk it's highly unlikely we fall within its underground defenses either especially since these tunnels weren't explored until just this turn.

And it doesn't matter if Karak Drakk's underground defenses are nearby just like it doesn't matter if their overland defenses are nearby we still need our own defenses unless you're trying to imply that we don't need overland defenses either.

 

[Copperscale]

The Wardstones are something I'd like to present to a Conclave, because anti scrying intelligence denial runes are something every hold should have.

But it probably won't be this one: With showing the Adamant to the Brotherhood while he didn't completely understand the process it's quite different. That was "I have this as yet poorly understood process, but the end result is Adamant" It's tangible. The wardstone on the other hand would be harder to explain because it's effect is completely intangible and it protects against something pretty alien to dwarfs.
We'd need help from Griffons/Elves to prove the effectiveness of anti-scrying. Or to invent our own scrying.

Coming to think of it, combining Light research, Eye-prosthetic research and Warding research might just lead to something like that.

 

[BungieONI]

The action we took notes that the depths under Karak Drakk are specifically defended but that they aren't mapped because they're simply too large well we mapped a bit of them and they turned up under our workshop and as we don't fall within the overland defenses of Karak Drakk it's highly unlikely we fall within its underground defenses either especially since these tunnels weren't explored until just this turn.

So it doesn't matter if Karak Drakk's underground defenses are nearby just like it doesn't matter if their overland defenses are nearby we still need our own defenses.

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But we are behind Kraka Drakk's overland defenses: Snorri's workshop wasn't attacked directly during the Siege. ANd my point is that again, they are nearby, and that that is sufficient to give us some kind of warning and safety and thus negate most of the urgency in my view. You may disagree with that, but the idea that we are not behind Kraka Drakk's defenses in some manner is incorrect.

The doors of the workshop open wide, and the Gift Giver walks out with a tarp-covered cart.

The Huskarls manning the defences of the Workshop approach, on orders of King Otrek, watch as the Runelord walks calmly down the passage, nonplussed by their presence. They keep watching as he walks out into the chaotic mess of the siege before several of their members begin moving after him.

The Runelord is unphased by the sight of foreboding skies filled with daemons and Griffons clashing with them. The sound of dwarfen war songs and the firing of artillery simply make him pause, look at the dwarfs on the ramparts then simply touch his hammer against an amulet dangling from his necklace.

Beleaguered defenders rally, artillery fires and daemons fall out of the sky around him.

The guards catch up with him, having had to run despite the fact that the old Runelord is walking and hauling a large cart behind him. He does not acknowledge them when they form up around him.

"Keep up beardlings, I have a wedding to get to," is all he mutters.

The guards, all longbeards over three centuries old, nod and pick up the pace.

They follow him through the hold, needing to do nothing as dwarfs part at his approach.

They follow him into the Underway Station where he rents out a few goats and a wagon to load his goods.

They follow him for the two-week-long journey in the dark, their small group not even bothering to stay at the Under-inns for more than a simple meal and tankard or twelve of ale before heading off towards the wedding location.

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This is a topic soul has talked about before and the last time I remember him talking about it his answer was that we are behind its overland defenses. Just not all of them.

E: And I'm saying that fundamentally we will need to put defenses down there. I agree with you on that topic, I just don't think there's a particular urgency to the matter.

 

[Kufufu]

That's a lot of neat logic you've got there, too bad this is Warhammer, and the power of the rule of cool reigns supreme. I'm pretty sure that Soulcake would let us found an alchemy guild if we wanted to and worked towards it, this quest is about fun, afterall.

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In fairness, being able to do something foes not make it a good idea to do it. I can jump off a cliff and maybe feel good about doing so for a second but that doesn't mean it's not going to hurt like he'll when I hit the ground. We probably can make an Alchemy Guild, but the signs point to that being a bad idea.

 

[MrHobbit]

The Wardstones are something I'd like to present to a Conclave, because anti scrying intelligence denial runes are something every hold should have.

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Wardstones are not nearly important enough for Snorri to share them at the Conclave. If Snorri had been one of Thungni's direct children or apprentices, then maybe.

To me it is very presumptuous to share the last creation of Karag Dum's (that we didn't even invent ourselves) along with gromril chain. If anyone has the right it would be Igna Metalheart.

The more I see this type of thing the more I will actively vote against researching the Wardstone runes.

 

[tri2]

anyone remember where Korri Redmane is right now?

 

[Karnax626]

Given that Valaya is apparently the Ancestor God who taught the dwaves to make wards, researching the Wardstone Rune and bringing them to the Grand Comclave to honour the memory of the lost runesmiths of Karag Dum could well be more impressive to her than researching her basket.

The runes on the basket seem much less likely to make a difference on the scale of scrying defence.

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You seem to be implying wards are both something that exist separate from runes, and that they're related enough to the runic Wardstones that they can get us Ancestor cred. You can't have it both ways.
That's setting aside the fact that Wards as you describe them don't actually exist, so I don't know why you keep bringing them up.

Considering she gave use the basket herself, I'm going to take a wild guess and assume they have more to do with Valaya than wardstones do.

 

[Sir LagsAlot]

But we are behind Kraka Drakk's overland defenses: Snorri's workshop wasn't attacked directly during the Siege. ANd my point is that again, they are nearby, and that that is sufficient to give us some kind of warning and safety and thus negate most of the urgency in my view. You may disagree with that, but the idea that we are not behind Kraka Drakk's defenses in some manner is incorrect.

This is a topic soul has talked about before and the last time I remember him talking about it his answer was that we are behind its overland defenses. Just not all of them.

E: And I'm saying that fundamentally we will need to put defenses down there. I agree with you on that topic, I just don't think there's a particular urgency to the matter.

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Alright, so we're behind some overland defenses but we still aren't behind any underground ones we still just discovered these tunnels.

And as all my previous posts have noted the soonest I planned on doing these defenses was turn 43-44 my problem was you saying we were behind any defenses underground when we aren't.

 

[BungieONI]

Alright, so we're behind some overland defenses but we still aren't behind any underground ones we still just discovered these tunnels.

And as all my previous posts have noted the soonest I planned on doing these defenses was turn 44 my problem was you saying we were behind any defenses underground when we aren't.

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Okay. Turn 44 is fine with me.

 

[Jreengus]

anyone remember where Korri Redmane is right now?

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Only info I can find is:

You were receiving letters pretty commonly until you guys got cut off, but that doesnt seem to be a problem soon. Last he heard Korri was still content at home, making stuff as a smith does.

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[tri2]

Only info I can find is:

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methinks we should visit and flex

 

[LaggPlaguedDuke]

I'd rather do alchemy first. Like I am 100% fine ignoring those tunnels until something shows up.

 

[Sir LagsAlot]

I'd rather do alchemy first. Like I am 100% fine ignoring those tunnels until something shows up.

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That's why it's on turn 43-44 alchemy was literally bricked in it was literally the only project cast in stone that wasn't an obligated action. Also still unwise to just leave the tunnel undefended forever it's an ever-present security risk and we're lucky we got the chance to fortify our underground defenses the first time after being hit it's unlikely fate will be that kind a second time.