RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

[soulcake]

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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)

 

[MrHobbit]

If we are able to research gromril chain to the point that we can use it for the Valayan commission on Turn 36 or so, how do people feel about Understanding MPurification? It would have to be done in place of Valaya's Basket, but that probably wouldn't affect the armor comission for reasons I have already gone over.

Though you feel no ill effects from prolonged, the sensation of not breathing is not exactly a pleasant one in your opinion.

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I think asphyxiation should be added after prolonged, or some word like that. Hm, oxygen deprivation would probably be better, because most definitions of asphyxiation include dying.

Edit: I also noticed this

At least, not all of us. I think Kraggi did for that one though,"

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The red comma should be a period.

 

[Jreengus]

I'd prefer to do the basket, not because I think it will help with the commission (I think it might but with low odds) but because I want to get all the Ancestor given research stuff done before they leave so basket ranks higher then purification for me.

 

[BungieONI]

I think we are talking past each other here. As I understand it the only way making gromril chain differs from making steel chain is the temperatures required and based on the last chapter it seems like Snorri's ultimate end goal is to be able to make a set of runed tools that can handle all the complications that heat creates. At that point any dwarf capable of making steel chain would if given those tools be able to make gromril chain. So the spread of the ability to make chain is limited by the speed with which Snorri produces those tools, if he can make 1 set of tools in two years every two years another blacksmithing clan will be able to make gromril chain. There's no reason for him to limit himself to only selling/giving those tools to Kraka Drakk clans and if anything I'd expect him to deliberately sell them to clans across the Karaz Ankor. The willingness of Kraka Drakk metal smithing clans would have nothing do with the spread.

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We're not, not exactly. I just fundamentally disagree, on Snorri's ability to spread it.

And, there are some issues here.

The first is assuming that a single set of runed tools is sufficient for an entire blacksmith clan. This is probably not the case, and Snorri will probably have to make several tools. He's capable of doing this, but the tools are materially expensive.

It requires Adamant, which restricts its speed of transmission. We can't really get around the Adamant part because the Runed Gromril softens until it isn't usable as a die.

So that means he can make a selection, but its going to cost and that cost is a physical impediment to its spread.

3b might be about finding a way around the Adamant bit, but I'm quite dubious of that, and it might well require master runes if there's a way around it without Adamant which doesn't really negate the issue.

What I've been talking about is a social impediment, that being that while Snorri may give it in trade, others are not obligated to do so and spreading it is going to take more than him and his apprentices. And I am dubious of Snorri being willing to deliberately spread it beyond Kraka Drakk. He'd need something in return for it, there's no real indication that everyone is going to be able to match up to whatever his requirements might be (which will probably be high since he's a 900 year old runelord). Basically, I'd like to be able to just assume its going to spread freely and quickly, but I also think that's impossible.

 

[Green Baron]

I HAVE FINALLY CAUGHT UP... Kinda, haven't read all the last pages yet.
So, shouldn't we just create some better axes for the prince as a wedding gift? After all Karstah did make them as an apprentice. Or have he already got better axes?

 

[MrHobbit]

I HAVE FINALLY CAUGHT UP... Kinda, haven't read all the last pages yet.
So, shouldn't we just create some better axes for the prince as a wedding gift? After all Karstah did make them as an apprentice. Or have he already got better axes?

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King Villi, the guy who asked us to make the wedding gifts, wants the gift to be something that Gimli will wear when he is eventually made the King of Kraka Drakk. The King of Kraka Drakk wields Trollslayer, so a weapon would not be what he wants.

 

[Sir LagsAlot]

I HAVE FINALLY CAUGHT UP... Kinda, haven't read all the last pages yet.
So, shouldn't we just create some better axes for the prince as a wedding gift? After all Karstah did make them as an apprentice. Or have he already got better axes?

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The commission is also supposed to be able to function as part of the king's regalia upon the prince's ascension to the throne so axes wouldn't work.

 

[Jreengus]

We're not, not exactly. I'm just talking about something that comes after all of this.

And, there are some issues here.

The first is assuming that a single set of runed tools is sufficient for an entire blacksmith clan. This is probably not the case, and Snorri will probably have to make several tools. He's capable of doing this, but the tools are materially expensive.

It requires Adamant, which restricts its speed of transmission. We can't really get around the Adamant part because the Runed Gromril softens until it isn't usable as a die.

So that means he can make a selection, but its going to cost and that cost is a physical impediment to its spread.

3b might be about finding a way around the Adamant bit, but I'm quite dubious of that, and it might well require master runes if there's a way around it without Adamant which doesn't really negate the issue.

What I've been talking about is a social impediment, that being that while Snorri may give it in trade, others are not obligated to do so and spreading it is going to take more than him and his apprentices. And I am dubious of Snorri being willing to deliberately spread it beyond Kraka Drakk. He'd need something in return for it, there's no real indication that everyone is going to be able to match up to whatever his requirements might be (which will probably be high since he's a 900 year old runelord). Basically, I'd like to be able to just assume its going to spread freely and quickly, but I also think that's impossible.

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I actually do expect one set of tools to be enough for most clans simply due to the cost of gromril meaning most clans wont be making that much chain. I had however forgotten about the adamant requirement which is likely to be the biggest problem.

I HAVE FINALLY CAUGHT UP... Kinda, haven't read all the last pages yet.
So, shouldn't we just create some better axes for the prince as a wedding gift? After all Karstah did make them as an apprentice. Or have he already got better axes?

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The result of the vote was to make a belt of charging. There was some hesitance around a weapon as he would have to stop using it once he became king to use Trollslayer instead, plus there was some talk about not wanting to replace the Karstah made axes.

 

[ArchAIngel]

Honestly, a Belt of Charging might go well with the Pyrestrike Cloak and Meteorfall Combo on Trollslayer.

Fast Zoom Impact, Big Boomy Fire Impact, Big Boomy Fire Axe, all sound like a "Literally A Goddamn Meteor" combo potential?

 

[Jreengus]

Honestly, a Belt of Charging might go well with the Pyrestrike Cloak and Meteorfall Combo on Trollslayer.

Fast Zoom Impact, Big Boomy Fire Impact, Big Boomy Fire Axe, all sound like a "Literally A Goddamn Meteor" combo potential?

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That's the hope, fingers crossed we get a combo on the belt because if not we can't get a set bonus either.

 

[Paloswag]

I'm going to turn around and say that this is probably an overestimation, because in warhammer one of the much bigger deals is magic. The Purple Sun does not give a toss what you're wearing unless its enchanted/runed, and fundamentally this quest is about playing a crafter of magic so magic is going to hold higher prominence than technical acumen.

He's also not going to be able to spread it to everyone immediately, nor outside of his hold for some time, as secrecy is a thing which will slow the spread even if he gives it to everyone he can because not everyone will agree with the idea of spreading it, and since he's a 900 year old Runelord and has opinions on worthiness he wouldn't give it to everyone he can anyway. He'll show it off once he has a method that can be taught to others, but its going to be restricted to Kraka Drakk for a while.

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I agree to a point. But the best dwarf magic is always going to be limited to those who can afford it. Increasing the quality of baseline troops is more impactful, though less flashy. And I think future military dwarven historians would value a smithing technique that improves the ability for the dwarves to wage war by covering an obvious weakness, rather than the adamant gronti that doesn't work anymore by Thorgrim's time. I could be wrong, though.

And I think you underestimate how fast it "could" spread. I don't see why there couldn't be an option to spread the knowledge like we have with the limbs, albeit with penalties. Snorri has shown himself to consider doing things that would be useful for dwarfkind and damn the consequences.

And an economical process would be an important enough discovery that it would be criminal not to spread it. Armored dwarves are slower and theoretically vulnerable to massed missile fire without runic defenses. If the elves have enough magic weapons capable of penetrating gromril chain that would completely negate our advantage of better armored weak points, than the dwarves are already fucked and it makes absolutely no sense how they managed to do so well in the war in canon.

So he's increasing the quality of Kraka Drakk's throng a lot and doing something only a god could do before so obviously his standing will increase. Will it immediately shoot him up to 10 with all of dwarfkind, like you say? No, because that would break the game over its freaking knee and also make the standing rewards we have for Requests a completely pointless waste of electrons to write and also greatly lessen the value of the Available Requests section after we just started using it. Which is a stupid design decision.

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I never said it would raise standing to 10. That was another person. I was more speaking of status from a lore perspective. If we weren't hindered by the gamification element, it would be a much bigger deal. Game mechanics sometimes force events in fictional worlds to come to pass in ways I don't think would play out in real life.

On a perspective moving away from game balance, dwarves are stubborn folk who respect deeds and proven capability. There is going to be resistance to immediately bumping him up to whatever when most dwarves haven't even met him. That's important for them, and frankly speaking stories about him are only going so far out of the Far North. Most places in the Karaz Ankor are at -5, because they don't know him.

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You're right in that his "unknownness" would be a factor. But I never heard of Steve Jobs until I got my first iPod. His name could spread with the product and be the reason he becomes known outside of his region.

Furthermore it's not the greatest thing he can ever do because it cannot make him a Ancestor God because it cannot alter the shape of dwarf society, its an exemplification of parts of society that already exist. Alchemy and/or Deep Magic can and therefore those are greater, by definition. Basing your argument off of the idea that it is, is flawed from the start.

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But to this point, I agree. I don't think I said Ancestor God, but if it came off that way then my bad. My definition of exalted is just a very big deal, like a household name but everywhere. I mean everyone knows who Elon Musk is but we're not worshipping him as a god... I hope.

And I agree that alchemy would be Snorri's best chance to become one.

 

[bird yells]

Honestly, a Belt of Charging might go well with the Pyrestrike Cloak and Meteorfall Combo on Trollslayer.

Fast Zoom Impact, Big Boomy Fire Impact, Big Boomy Fire Axe, all sound like a "Literally A Goddamn Meteor" combo potential?

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There's a good case to be made for it, at least. Aside from the obvious physical interplay between wandering and impact (the former adds speed and the latter weight, for a compound increase in momentum), the wandering rune is also associated with sure-footedness and agility, and the grimnir rune adds general connotations with valour and martial skill. The overall statement is that the wearer will charge unerringly across the battlefield, at breathtaking speed and unhindered by terrain, striking greater enemies with the force of an avalanche and trampling lesser ones underfoot. This would then slot neatly into an overall combat philosophy suggested by the axe and the cloak, centered around striking unhesitatingly and with such overwhelming force the enemy is left powerless to respond. Snorri even got to witness a particular ancestor of Otrek's and Gimli's putting that philosophy into practice, once, in a manner he might aspire to emulate with the royal gear he makes:

The Greater Daemon blocks Grimnir's advance.

(Roll, The Valiant: Who cares + ???[The Warrior King] = Inconsequential)

It does not last long.

The Ancestor holsters his two axes, pulling the third axe from his back and with a bellowing roar throws it at the daemon's head.

The spinning weapon flies through the air, then for a tiny moment, impacts and stops at the Tzeentchian's shield before the weapon's Runes flare and it breaks through like nothing was there at all. The spinning axe finally stops as it buries itself in the Birdlike head with a meaty thunk, followed by the great crash as the beast topples over dead.

The battle that follows is simply clean up.

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(Not the literal tactics being employed obviously, there's no axe-throwing involved on our end, but more the general idea of taking the initiative, striking first and striking hard enough the enemy's response becomes a non-issue)

 

[BungieONI]

I agree to a point. But the best dwarf magic is always going to be limited to those who can afford it. Increasing the quality of baseline troops is more impactful, though less flashy. And I think future military dwarven historians would value a smithing technique that improves the ability for the dwarves to wage war by covering an obvious weakness, rather than the adamant gronti that doesn't work anymore by Thorgrim's time. I could be wrong, though.

And I think you underestimate how fast it "could" spread. I don't see why there couldn't be an option to spread the knowledge like we have with the limbs, albeit with penalties. Snorri has shown himself to consider doing things that would be useful for dwarfkind and damn the consequences.

And an economical process would be an important enough discovery that it would be criminal not to spread it. Dwarves are slow and theoretically weak to massed missile fire without runic defenses. If the elves have enough magic weapons capable of penetrating gromril that would completely negate our advantage of better armored weak points, than the dwarves are already fucked and it makes absolutely no sense how they managed to do so well in the war in canon.

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It really kinda isn't? With the way the game works, most dwarves have magic items, but on the flip side most of the benefit to their rolls comes from singular items like the Ancestral Aegis banner. Chain is another equipment boost, that probably isn't comparable to the banner in terms of mechanical numeracy.

Elves do bullshit with arrows and archery that break the laws of physics via magic bullshit. Dwarves armored in unenchanted stuff are only going to have what natural anti-magic they have, and any runesmith support. Chain is only a small benefit on that scale when Battle Magic is getting flung around unless its part of enchanted/runed armro. Will it help, yes. Will future military dwarven historians value it more than magic? Who knows, we're a Runelord they're probably gonna expect magic first.

I never said it would raise standing to 10. That was another person. I was more speaking of status from a lore perspective. If we weren't hindered by the gamification element, it would be a much bigger deal, especially because he already is a celebrity in his region. It would be like Robert Downey Jr. discovering arc technology in real life. It would be more of a cultural phenomena than if you or I invented it.

You're right in that his "unknownness" would be a factor. But I never heard of Steve Jobs until I got my first iPod. His name could spread with the product and be the reason he becomes known outside of his region.

But to this point, I agree. I don't think I said Ancestor God, but if it came off that way then my bad. My definition of exalted is just a very big deal, like a household name but everywhere. I mean everyone knows who Elon Musk is but we're not worshipping him as a god... I hope.

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You said "exalted status among dwarfkind" which means Standing 10 for every dwarf over the Karaz Ankor. If you meant something else, you should have clarified that when you initially brought up the idea, because Exalted means something very specific in the context of Standing.

As for the last point you said "it might be the greatest thing he ever does", which is definitionally not the case if he can do something that reshapes dwarven society so much he becomes an actual Ancestor God. So no you didn't say he would be, but you mentioned and started from an absolute that is not supported in light of what else we can do.

 

[SurpriseMe]

Brotherhood of Dron passing through Karak Kadrin toll stations, colorized.

 

[Paloswag]

You said "exalted status among dwarfkind" which means Standing 10 for every dwarf over the Karaz Ankor. If you meant something else, you should have clarified that when you initially brought up the idea, because Exalted means something very specific in the context of Standing.

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I did say that. I'm going to have to read my post closer next time. And I didn't realize "Exalted" was a mechanic. I just assumed it was the word.

As for the last point you said "it might be the greatest thing he ever does", which is definitionally not the case if he can do something that reshapes dwarven society so much he becomes an actual Ancestor God. So no you didn't say he would be, but you mentioned and started from an absolute that is not supported in light of what else we can do.

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In terms of Warhammer lore, an efficient way to make use of low amounts of gromril would be a gamechanger for canon. My initial thought was that Alchemy/Deep Magic wouldn't survive past the Time of Woes because of the lack of runic knowledge, but in hindsight there's no reason it couldn't. Maybe it's inclusion would be enough to prevent the loss of runic knowledge altogether which would be awesome.

 

[Sir LagsAlot]

But to this point, I agree. I don't think I said Ancestor God, but if it came off that way then my bad. My definition of exalted is just a very big deal, like a household name but everywhere. I mean everyone knows who Elon Musk is but we're not worshipping him as a god... I hope.

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Hm, I think this point has made it clear to me that we just have a different understanding of what each level of standing is you appear to equate the exalted level of standing as more of a household name kind of thing (nothing wrong with that, of course, I just have a different opinion) where everyone knows who they are and what they've accomplished which seems evident by the examples you've given of Elon Musk and Steve Jobs.

Well to my understanding that's more the 0 (known and respected) to 5 (known and deeply honored/respected) standing range where on the low end you're known and respected such as the examples you've provided and on the higher end you get the national icon type of people like Bill Cosby before the conviction. And the 5 to 10 standing range is where you start to get your national heroes on the low end such as Churchill and Roosevelt well on the high end you get your legendary heroes such Joan of Arc (a literal saint to boot just to drive the point home on how high standing 10 is) and theoretically George Washington (thinking about it we share a lot of similarities to these two for Kraka Drakk no wonder we're a hold wide ancestor for them).

Let alone like standing 11 where on the low-end you're pretty much comparative to Jesus or Muhammad and on the high end you're pretty much just God or the Buddha.

So as great an accomplishment as finishing the gromril chain line is I still think it'll only push us up to about around 0 for the majority of Karaz Ankor (to be honest I kind of feel like I'm being a bit overly generous here still) as well it's a legendary feat it's not quite enough to consolidate a proper legend for a Dwarf among the wider realm also see us literally helping to defeat an Everchoosen and not getting much notoriety with the wider realm if you want to see why my expectations are tempered.

With regards to going beyond that personally in my opinion Snorri is simply too young and lacking in general feats to really see much more upward mobility with regards to standing for the entire realm for a while I'd say he needs at least another few hundred years, to complete the gromril chain research line, complete the adamant research line, get a few more legendary feats under his belt and maybe then he'll get up to the 5-10 standing range with the general realm (this would be the minor ancestor god realm for those using that tier system but as specified in that one they're only really worshipped in death, so no 11 standing for Snorri yet).

After that, it'll probably be at least another few centuries or maybe even an extra millennia or so along with some extra feats before we see the final transition for Snorri where he does something that truly upends society for the Dwarfs such as integrating alchemy into rune smithing after the departure of the ancestors or full stop founding the alchemy guild. This has the possibility to move him into major ancestor god territory depending on how things play out but would still probably only land him in the lower range being of equivalent status to the original four's descendants or possibly even being slightly below them rather than being the true equal of the likes of Grungni for example.

 

[Nianque]

rather than the adamant gronti that doesn't work anymore by Thorgrim's time. I could be wrong, though.

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Our stuff draws on the Deep Magic. Also, my plan (and others might disagree) is to understand Compress and Understand the Mountainsouled combo to try and get something we can put on the Grimnir gronti alonside M Waking and Grimnir's rune. If we get that? I don't see any reason for the gronti to stop working by the time canon comes around.

 

[soul ice]

Compressed mountain soul is most definitely a master rune only one per creation. We have just recently gained enough to study the part of the master rune of waking that relates to deep magic so more than likely we will need to make a new rune of deep magic from studying that and mountain souled. Hopefully we can simplify that rune to a standard rune rather than a master rune.

 

[Nianque]

Compressed mountain soul is most definitely a master rune only one per creation. We have just recently gained enough to study the part of the master rune of waking that relates to deep magic so more than likely we will need to make a new rune of deep magic from studying that and mountain souled. Hopefully we can simplify that rune to a standard rune rather than a master rune.

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Yeah my plan involves simplifying it after we compress the combo. Hopefully it's relatively simple to do, but I'm not counting on it. Would be the perfect addition to Grimnir!Gronti

 

[Jreengus]

Spoiler

Character sheet just updated, I think it's just the ages unless I missed something.

Edit: And standing has updated to remove the accepted request.

Edit:

Spoiler

[Tier 2] Zhufazul (Liquid Metal)/ Grimnirzan (Grimnir's Blood) x∞: Can be a replacement to [T2] Loadstone, [T2] Loadsteel and any ingredient needed for the base Master Rune of Grimnir.

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Combo, Relentless Pursuit: [Master Rune of Wandering, Rune of Impact, Rune of Grimnir] The user can run at incredible speeds and jump the height of three average dwarfs with ease. Running towards the enemy further improves the user's speed. The user's first blow at the end of their charge deals a far greater amount of damage.

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Set Combo, Grimnir's Burning Wroth: [Meteorfall, Pyrestrike, Relentless Pursuit] When charging at an enemy or specific point, the user rapidly picks up speed and gains a protective shell of flame around them, gathering more and more energy until it can be released as an explosion of heat and power strong enough to melt steel or condensed into the user's weapon, allies unharmed.

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I am so relieved right now, I was really worried it wouldn't combo!

 

[soulcake]

Praise the snazz, for they are your god.

 

[Jreengus]

Spoiler

Ok so the Hearth Guard did update but the total number didn't. I'm seeing 5 new Longbeard Warriors and 3 new Engineers, no new catbird though

 

[BungieONI]

Spoiler

Ok so the Hearth Guard did update but the total number didn't. I'm seeing 5 new Longbeard Warriors and 3 new Engineers, no new catbird though

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Spoiler

Worth remembering that Catbirds are going to trigger a choice of whether to accept them or not, since they are really radical. So we may have gotten one but won't know till the doot.

 

[ArchAIngel]

Praise the snazz, for they are your god.

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Oh, our Snazz Points earned us a reroll?

Well sweet. Glad that happened.

 

[UlseDovThur]

Spoiler

-The Iron Arm
Despite its name, the arm's structure is actually made entirely of Adamant, decorated with bands of Pure Gromril with a Hearthstone cut to resemble the Sigil of Clan Stonehammer embedded into its shoulder. Four smaller Hearthstones carved into the emblem of Clan Ironarm, the personal sigils of the Princess, her deceased Husband and Karak Ungor are inset around the larger stone in an "x" shape pattern. Amid the very understated knotwork, the saga of Kolzharradrakk's death, the names of every woman of Clan Ironarm, and the lineage of her Clan is written in exacting detail in a style reminiscent of Wyrmguard and Drakeplate. Its hammer blows strike with enough force to easily break through thirty centimetres steel, and can easily handle glowing hot metal fresh out of the forge without the user suffering any discomfort.
--- [Master Rune of Waking (Ancient Troll's Heart), Rune of Forged Limb, Rune of Stone]
--- Soul of the Earth
--- Trollbane
--- Chaosbane
--- Mind for Constructs

-The Steelshanks
Two lifelike Adamant legs, bound with bands of Pure Gromril. The left leg is the shorter of the two, a Hearthstone with the Rune of Warding is set into the knee while two smaller Hearthstones marked with the emblem of Clan Ironarm and Stonehammer each sit in the shins. The right leg reaches up to the thigh made in the same style but with a Rune of Vitality on the knee, a second Hearthstone that bears the Rune of Fortitude is embedded on the outside of the thigh, close to the hip. Together they greatly enhance the user's endurance, and toughness. The wearer will feel each limb warming them in even the bitterest winter cold and strengthening their resolve.
--- Left Leg: [Rune of Forged Limb, Rune of Warding, Rune of the Valiant]
--- Right Leg: [Rune of Forged Limb, Rune of Vitality, Rune of Fortitude]
--- Soul of the Earth
--- Trollbane
--- Chaosbane
--- Mind for Constructs

 

[Pyro Hawk]

Spoiler

I am so relieved right now, I was really worried it wouldn't combo!

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Spoiler

Well now. Looks like future Kings of Kraka Drakk are very much going to be of the 'get stuck into the centre of the fight' types. Cavalry? Who needs cavalry for heavy shock charges! We just make it so that a Dwarf can do the same as others manage with a riding beast using their own two feet!