RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

[soulcake]

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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)

 

[Jreengus]

The thing is, what Gimli needs isn't additional combat capability. He's killy enough. And if he's not, then that's what his Champion is for. What he needs is something to help him become a better King. That's something that he needs to near uniquely do. Lots of different people can be exceptionally good warriors in the Hold. Only one person makes the final call on the big decisions, and that will be him.

We're also, it seems, moving into a more peaceful period of expansion. This is a time that a King needs ploughshares, not swords. I think this is a change Snorri should lead. When it was the Great Chaos Incursions and the build up to it, it was a time for war, so he made the Kings of Kraka Drakk weapons and armour. That time is over, and it's a more hopeful age, so he's making them tools to help them rule rather than kill.

Click to shrink...

So while I do want to play around with leadership runes and eventually make the Rune of Kingship right now I just want to finish off the kings war panoply so the leadership talisman is my second choice for that request.

I'm also not sure "peaceful expansion" is even a thing when even settled areas are filled with murderous gribblies. There is no level of combat capability Gimli can have a not need more, unless he becomes literally Grimnir there is always the risk of something bigger and more powerful coming along and killing him.

 

[Ithillid]

Also, as soon as there is an extra Retainer action, we absolutely need to start pouring it into getting more books.

 

[Garlak]

Well, you are not wrong. Back to the drawboard! How can we make this all fit?

Spoiler

Actions​	Turn 35 – Armoured Maidens Accept​	Turn 36 – Princely Wedding Due​	Turn 37 – Grave Wardens Accept​	Turn 38​	Turn 39​	Turn 40 – Armoured Maidens Due​	Turn 41​	Turn 42 – Grave Wardens Due​
AP 1​	Triage Pt. 2​	A Princely Wedding Pt. 2​	Understand Valaya's Runes​	The Rune Metal Pt. 2B​	Armoured Maidens​	Armoured Maidens​	Grave Wardens​	Grave Wardens​
AP 2​	Triage Pt. 2​	A Princely Wedding Pt. 2​	Understand Valaya's Runes​	The Rune Metal Pt. 2B​	Armoured Maidens​	Armoured Maidens​	Grave Wardens​	Grave Wardens​
AP 3​	A Princely Wedding Pt. 1​	The Rune Metal Pt. 2B​	Understand Valaya's Runes​	The Rune Metal Pt. 2B​	Armoured Maidens​	Armoured Maidens​	Grave Wardens​	Grave Wardens​
AP 4​	Understand Valaya's Runes​	The Rune Metal Pt. 2B​	​	​	Armoured Maidens​	Armoured Maidens​	Grave Wardens​	​
AP 5​	Hold Founding​	Hold Founding​	Hold Founding​	Hold Founding​	Hold Founding​	Hold Founding​	Grave Wardens​	​

Have a new Outline!
Differences:
Made sure we put enough actions into triage.
Princely Wedding is finished in Turn 36 instead of 35.
We definitely put 3 effective building actions into both triage and Princely Wedding.
Valaya Comission Armoured Maidens is now made in 4-4 instead of 3-3 which ends up as 12 effective actions instead of 13. (Which means two boring turns of 39 and 40 with lots of building that will put our Earth Mover act to shame)
One less FREE action than the former outline.
Else only actions have been shuffled around.

Thoughts?

Click to shrink...

Zhufazul on Turn 35 to complete it, so we can use it for Gimli's wedding gift. Thus needing to move the single Valaya's Runes action from Turn 35 to Turn 37.

Other than that... I think I like it. (So many things to quibble over and go 'But can you put in X? Let's try it out!' though. ><)

... On the bright side, this means that we'll have three turns of "spending 4 actions on a single topic"? xD

Further investigation into Chamon spells might also provide inspiration into Gromril chain. There are spells using that Wind that allow a wizard to freely change metal items that they touch into another shape, and other, simpler ones, that temporarily alter their physical properties so they can be physically shaped like clay. A runic/alchemical procedure that temporarily does the later to gromril seems plausible.

Click to shrink...

That'll have to go waaaay on the backburner, because I suspect what you describe will require Akazit just to put into practice. We can't do this in the middle of this century. Heck, given that alchemy and Chamon would end up Runesmith stuff -- and part 2b is already "make it possible for Runesmiths to do Gromril chain" -- this is kind of problematic because we can't stop all our stuff.

The thing is, what Gimli needs isn't additional combat capability. He's killy enough. And if he's not, then that's what his Champion is for. What he needs is something to help him become a better King. That's something that he needs to near uniquely do. Lots of different people can be exceptionally good warriors in the Hold. Only one person makes the final call on the big decisions, and that will be him.

We're also, it seems, moving into a more peaceful period of expansion. This is a time that a King needs ploughshares, not swords. I think this is a change Snorri should lead. When it was the Great Chaos Incursions and the build up to it, it was a time for war, so he made the Kings of Kraka Drakk weapons and armour. That time is over, and it's a more hopeful age, so he's making them tools to help them rule rather than kill.

Click to shrink...

This is absolutely not a purely peaceful expansion; there are hordes of monsters and gribblies in the world. This is a time when horrible, ancient, and powerful, monsters still exist and are more common. What we don't have any more, is a never-ending tide of Daemons.

I mean, the comissions here are... "Make armor for our most veteran and expert warriors"! What part of that strikes you as "peaceful expansion"?

 

[LightLan]

Zhufazul on Turn 35 to complete it, so we can use it for Gimli's wedding gift. Thus needing to move the single Valaya's Runes action from Turn 35 to Turn 37.

Click to shrink...

I have tried to avoid having turns which only do a single thing (which has been more apparent with the very first version than the more optimized later ones), because I have the feeling soulcake dies a little inside every time all actions are spent on a single thing.

 

[bird yells]

My preference is a belt of charging, MWandering + Impact + Grimnir on a leather belt mounted with adamant plates containing the runes and displaying images of clan Ironarm ancestors charging into battle. Hopefully it would create a meteor themed set bonus with the cloak and axe.

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This is a promising concept, imo. The axe favours single overwhelming strikes and the fire cloak is made to aggressively repel enemies, either reactively or pre-emptively; there's a commonality there, involving ideas like forcefulness and initiative and decisive action, and a talisman like you're proposing can serve as a bridging unit to bring the other two pieces of the regalia together. I can see myself voting for this, if you bring a plan forward.

 

[Jreengus]

I have tried to avoid having turns which only do a single thing (which has been more apparent with the very first version than the more optimized later ones), because I have the feeling soulcake dies a little inside every time all actions are spent on a single thing.

Click to shrink...

I view it the other way around, the Omake board exists because there's stuff Soulcake wants to write but doesn't have the time to and more concentrated updates let him dedicate more of the wordcount to other cool stuff that's happening. Though I guess we could just ask him if we really want to know which he prefers.

This is a promising concept, imo. The axe favours single overwhelming strikes and the fire cloak is made to aggressively repel enemies, either reactively or pre-emptively; there's a commonality there, involving ideas like forcefulness and initiative and decisive action, and a talisman like you're proposing can serve as a bridging unit to bring the other two pieces of the regalia together. I can see myself voting for this, if you bring a plan forward.

Click to shrink...

Me making a plan depends heavily on when the update drops. A lot of the time I'm soundly asleep when voting starts and by the time I wake up a new plan has no hope. So don't wait for me, be the plan maker you want to see in the world!

 

[bird yells]

I view it the other way around, the Omake board exists because there's stuff Soulcake wants to write but doesn't have the time to and more concentrated updates let him dedicate more of the wordcount to other cool stuff that's happening. Though I guess we could just ask him if we really want to know which he prefers.

Me making a plan depends heavily on when the update drops. A lot of the time I'm soundly asleep when voting starts and by the time I wake up a new plan has no hope. So don't wait for me, be the plan maker you want to see in the world!

Click to shrink...

I'm in a time zone adjacent to yours and usually find myself in the exact same situation as you do re: sleeping through the parts of the thread loop where plans are hashed out, so I'm sadly not the most reliable deputy for this kind of thing lol

 

[kinglugia]

Same boat. I like the MWandering Grimnir Impact idea, but alas!

 

[MrHobbit]

I have tried to avoid having turns which only do a single thing (which has been more apparent with the very first version than the more optimized later ones), because I have the feeling soulcake dies a little inside every time all actions are spent on a single thing.

Click to shrink...

I disagree somewhat. Some of our greatest achievements have been when we focused everything on a single thing: Trollslayer, Barak Azamar, Zharrgal. Of course because of apprentices we couldn't do everything, but still. Those were certainly some of the most epic parts of this Quest.

It's also a more Dwarfy thing to do.

Edit: I think this quote encapsulates my opinion the best.

This will be a fine weapon. A fitting tribute to Thungni, of that you're sure.

Ancestors, it's been ages since you've actually worked on something that's done more than bring quiet satisfaction. Actual giddy excitement courses through you from toe to the tip of your beard hairs. A current of energy flowing through you in a way you haven't felt in a good long time.

This, THIS, is one of the many reasons you live for.

Click to shrink...

 

[Alratan]

Unfortunately as far as I can tell we lack the ability to give him that.

Click to shrink...

Something like a coronet with the Ancestor Runes of Grungni and Grimnir plus the Rune of Brotherhood, as I think Garlack previously proposed, would seem to fit the bill quite nicely.

Otherwise, we can just go with a theme and leave it up to soulcake to pick the runes and hope we roll high.

This is absolutely not a purely peaceful expansion; there are hordes of monsters and gribblies in the world. This is a time when horrible, ancient, and powerful, monsters still exist and are more common. What we don't have any more, is a never-ending tide of Daemons.

I mean, the comissions here are... "Make armor for our most veteran and expert warriors"! What part of that strikes you as "peaceful expansion"?

Click to shrink...

Note how I did not say 'purely peaceful'. That was for a reason.

What I actually said, and I'd ask you to respond to and not construct a straw man you can ridicule instead, was 'more peaceful'. The regalia we created for the rulers of Kraka Drakk/the Aerie above it was sufficient to kill Kholek Suneater. I very strongly doubt they will have to fight anything remotely as challenging as him. We're also asked for something that will be useful in the centuries in the future when he's King, when things should be much more peaceful and stable. You're also completely ignoring all the things I was talking about with how not only Kings can fight, but only Kings can be final decision makers.

And as for why we're commissioned to make armour - perhaps that's because such a high proportion of our legendary and epic and our only mythic item is armour, so that's what people come to us for?

 

[fictionfan]

Something like a coronet with the Ancestor Runes of Grungni and Grimnir plus the Rune of Brotherhood, as I think Garlack previously proposed, would seem to fit the bill quite nicely.

Otherwise, we can just go with a theme and leave it up to soulcake to pick the runes and hope we roll high.

Click to shrink...

Maybe we could make a talisman that improves senses? Improved senses means more information. More information makes being intelligent easier.

We have already made some progress on restoring them it seems like a similar and easier problem.

I have tried to avoid having turns which only do a single thing (which has been more apparent with the very first version than the more optimized later ones), because I have the feeling soulcake dies a little inside every time all actions are spent on a single thing.

Click to shrink...

Well then he shouldn't have made the traits work like they do. As is it is clear that it is optimal to put as many actions into the same thing as possible to better prok traits.

 

[Alratan]

Maybe we could make a talisman that improves senses? Improved senses means more information. More information makes being intelligent easier.

We have already made some progress on restoring them it seems like a similar and easier problem.

Click to shrink...

Unfortunately we still don't know those runes. That's why I'm keen on the Ancestor Runes, as they encompass broad concepts that they express in particular ways depending on the context. Grungni and Grimnir in the context of Brotherhood placed on a talismans that is a symbol of ruler ship would hopefully focus their effects on where the two Brothers intersect, in that they're both leaders.

 

[MrHobbit]

@soulcake why did the Princely Wedding Gift say that King Villi was going to give it on Gimli's wedding day?

- [] [Difficult] A Princely Wedding Gift Pt.1: [Cost: 1 action] Due end of Turn 36. If a rune you want requires special ingredients that you don't have access to I will alert you. Apply optional Rune Ingredients here. Gain 100 Favour with Kraka Ravnsvake. Snorri thinks another patron might be found by end of turn 34. King Villi has come to you asking if you would make a wedding gift that he could offer Prince Gimli on the day he weds the King's daughter. King Villi trusts that your relationship with Clan Ironarm is such that you know what to best make for them, but he would prefer something that Gimli will carry with him when he eventually takes up the panoply of his father and grandfather as their equipment has become the royal arms of Kraka Drakk's monarch and heir. In other words, anything but a suit of [Armour] or a [Banner] is preferable.

Click to shrink...

"If he'll take it, wedding's not for another three decades so there ought to be enough time. Unless he goes on Lady Igna's campaign of course," Gloin responds, putting his hands on his hips.

Click to shrink...

Gloin said that in 212 AP, while the latest year is 253 AP. Shouldn't Gimli be married by now? Like, he would have been married in the Turn 33 Results.

Edit: I noticed a typo in the turn where Gloin and Kaggra were discussing the wedding.

"Lord Bardin is busy preparing for the expedition, and with Lady Brynna busy assisting father with soothing over the cultural clash with Zorn, she's likely too busy to take on any work. The only options are Lady Lorna or Bara."

Click to shrink...

Bardin should be Dwalin.

 

[BungieONI]

It would also not leave a single action left over for anything else and only work if Triage Pt. 2 only takes one action which is also still debated.

Click to shrink...

Multiple items, it has to be a set so 2 actions.

Have a new Outline!
Differences:
Made sure we put enough actions into triage.
Princely Wedding is finished in Turn 36 instead of 35.
We definitely put 3 effective building actions into both triage and Princely Wedding.
Valaya Comission Armoured Maidens is now made in 4-4 instead of 3-3 which ends up as 12 effective actions instead of 13. (Which means two boring turns of 39 and 40 with lots of building that will put our Earth Mover act to shame)
One less FREE action than the former outline.
Else only actions have been shuffled around.

Thoughts?

Click to shrink...

I'd like to be able to use Zufazul in Gimli's commission.


Speaking of which, @Jreengus I like the idea of Wandering + Impact + Grimnir, but am concerned about more 'esoteric' runes being used in combos now that Waking + Limb + Stone didn't combo. It's been demonstrated at this point that our esoteric runes operate on rules we do not know and that we have no real indication what rune or runes on the arm didn't combo with the others and most importantly, no way to find out.

The entire thing is black boxed and its basically luck when we get an esoteric combo to work, and we can see that here where we tried to use logic for Stone and Limb and such that we'd used before and it just failed. There's been some esoteric combos like the Aegis that worked because the logic was good enough, but looking back at stuff like Mountainsouled I'm much more surprised it actually worked at all.

 

[bird yells]

I've seen it put forward a couple of times now that we can circumvent any difficulty in producing esoteric rune effects like "good kingship" by just writing in a theme, and with a lucky roll soul cake will be obligated to put in a combo effect we would have had trouble to formulate on our own. I don't really agree with this idea, because it presupposes we can lock in a specific end result. Consider how things went with the cloaks: the written-in themes for them were "relentless, unstoppable and valiant king" and "redoubtable, vital and skilled heir" respectively and, on presumably good rolls, the result was a firebomb cloak that can be triggered manually and an ice mantle that deflects projectiles. It should be pretty clear these cloaks don't in themselves make Otrek more valiant or Gloin more skilled, yes? Instead soulcake wrote some combos that were consistent with the broad themes suggested by the write-ins but nevertheless produced very specific, and tangible, effects. If we go for a write-in for Gimli and get a good result, I think there's an obvious possibility that, instead of handing out a combo with all the benefits of a hypothetical rune of wisdom like some people seem to be gunning for, soulcake will write a talisman befitting a young prince aspiring to be a good king, with a specific physical effect of the sort we could conceivably have cooked up on our own.

None of which is to say writing in a theme is a terrible idea, of course. Even if Snorri produces a talisman that "just" makes nearby enemies awestruck by the wearer's majesty, or whatever, it would still be a perfectly good end result and a fine thing to give Gimli. But I really do think, if making a rune combo that imparts leadership and soundness of judgement is difficult with Snorri's current rune library, those difficulties will still persist even if there's a dice roll involved.

 

[BungieONI]

I've seen it put forward a couple of times now that we can circumvent any difficulty in producing esoteric rune effects like "good kingship" by just writing in a theme, and with a lucky roll soul cake will be obligated to put in a combo effect we would have had trouble to formulate on our own. I don't really agree with this idea, because it presupposes we can lock in a specific end result. Consider how things went with the cloaks: the written-in themes for them were "relentless, unstoppable and valiant king" and "redoubtable, vital and skilled heir" respectively and, on presumably good rolls, the result was a firebomb cloak that can be triggered manually and an ice mantle that deflects projectiles. It should be pretty clear these cloaks don't in themselves make Otrek more valiant or Gloin more skilled, yes? Instead soulcake wrote some combos that were consistent with the broad themes suggested by the write-ins but nevertheless produced very specific, and tangible, effects. If we go for a write-in for Gimli and get a good result, I think there's an obvious possibility that, instead of handing out a combo with all the benefits of a hypothetical rune of wisdom like some people seem to be gunning for, soulcake will write a talisman befitting a young prince aspiring to be a good king, with a specific physical effect of the sort we could conceivably have cooked up on our own.

None of which is to say writing in a theme is a terrible idea, of course. Even if Snorri produces a talisman that "just" makes nearby enemies awestruck by the wearer's majesty, or whatever, it would still be a perfectly good end result and a fine thing to give Gimli. But I really do think, if making a rune combo that imparts leadership and soundness of judgement is difficult with Snorri's current rune library, those difficulties will still persist even if there's a dice roll involved.

Click to shrink...

That is my worry.

But its not really a big surprise to be freaking honest if something like that happens. Runes aim first for the physical and practical with esoteric a distant like third.

 

[Jreengus]

Speaking of which, @Jreengus I like the idea of Wandering + Impact + Grimnir, but am concerned about more 'esoteric' runes being used in combos now that Waking + Limb + Stone didn't combo. It's been demonstrated at this point that our esoteric runes operate on rules we do not know and that we have no real indication what rune or runes on the arm didn't combo with the others and most importantly, no way to find out.

Click to shrink...

None of those runes seem particularly esoteric to me, I'm not sure I get what the problem you are seeing here is. It's the master rune for moving fast across rough terrain; the rune for adding momentum to a charge and the ancestor rune most associated with battle (the most esoteric of the three). All three runes are directly related to the idea of a powerful battle charge.

 

[BungieONI]

None of those runes seem particularly esoteric to me, I'm not sure I get what the problem you are seeing here is. It's the master rune for moving fast across rough terrain; the rune for adding momentum to a charge and the ancestor rune most associated with battle (the most esoteric of the three). All three runes are directly related to the idea of a powerful battle charge.

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The Rune of Grimnir is the point of concern in my mind. I agree that the image is obvious, and to be frank my concern is pretty minor but I felt it necessary to discuss.

 

[Jreengus]

The Rune of Grimnir is the issue in my mind. I agree that the image is obvious, and to be frank my concern is pretty minor but I felt it necessary to discuss.

Click to shrink...

Ah, okay. Soulcake did describe it as "arguably a generic Rune of Killing" in the ancestor rune infopost so it seems pretty appropriate to me. Alternatively my original idea was two impacts which was partly because I don't think we've tried two of the same runes yet. That could be a interesting alternative to make it run fast and hit very very hard.

 

[LaggPlaguedDuke]

The nice thing about theme at least we're getting combos out of it even f it's not quite exactly what we thought the combo would be.

 

[BungieONI]

Ah, okay. Soulcake did describe it as "arguably a generic Rune of Killing" in the ancestor rune infopost so it seems pretty appropriate to me. Alternatively my original idea was two impacts which was partly because I don't think we've tried two of the same runes yet. That could be a interesting alternative to make it run fast and hit very very hard.

Click to shrink...

Might is another, since it strengthens the user and was used on Trollslayer for "Hit really hard".

 

[ArchAIngel]

Multiple items, it has to be a set so 2 actions.


I'd like to be able to use Zufazul in Gimli's commission.


Speaking of which, @Jreengus I like the idea of Wandering + Impact + Grimnir, but am concerned about more 'esoteric' runes being used in combos now that Waking + Limb + Stone didn't combo. It's been demonstrated at this point that our esoteric runes operate on rules we do not know and that we have no real indication what rune or runes on the arm didn't combo with the others and most importantly, no way to find out.

The entire thing is black boxed and its basically luck when we get an esoteric combo to work, and we can see that here where we tried to use logic for Stone and Limb and such that we'd used before and it just failed. There's been some esoteric combos like the Aegis that worked because the logic was good enough, but looking back at stuff like Mountainsouled I'm much more surprised it actually worked at all.

Click to shrink...

I'm honestly a little bit shocked by the Waking-Limb-Stone NOT combo-ing, and also feel a little bad given I pushed for it.

Maybe it should've been the original idea.

At least we get to learn what MR Waking on a limb does? I'm kinda hoping given the Talismanic version it give extra fists or something.

 

[Pempelune]

The nice thing about theme at least we're getting combos out of it even f it's not quite exactly what we thought the combo would be.

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I prefer to rely on reasoning to make a combo than to a dice, frankly. Yes, we often miss combos, but it's not the end of the world and it still feel more earned than when we let the dice choose.

 

[BungieONI]

I'm honestly a little bit shocked by the Waking-Limb-Stone NOT combo-ing, and also feel a little bad given I pushed for it.

Maybe it should've been the original idea.

At least we get to learn what MR Waking on a limb does? I'm kinda hoping given the Talismanic version it give extra fists or something.

Click to shrink...

I doubt that the original would have worked either tbh so don't feel too bad.

I prefer to rely on reasoning to make a combo than to a dice, frankly. Yes, we often miss combos, but it's not the end of the world and it still feel more earned than when we let the dice choose.

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The funny thing is that we don't often miss them. The last time it happened was the King and Heir's armors, which has with the limbs totaled up to five out of something like 13 or 14 combos we've made.

 

[Jreengus]

Might is another, since it strengthens the user and was used on Trollslayer for "Hit really hard".

Click to shrink...

Depends on how the strengthening works, in my mind I think of it as being focused the arms almost like an impact rune for the arms which wouldn't really work with the other two runes. If it's all your muscles are more powerful that would work though.

@soulcake to the best of Snorri's knowledge what does a might rune on an amulet do? Would it be an all round general strength increase?