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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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I'm not doing it because I want to save favor with them, we only have 50. I'm pretty certain we can give them the best care without pulling the clerics in.
I can't imagine the clerics of valaya wouldn't be involved in this, so spending favour would be used to get even more out of them but not be necessary just to have them involved. As such I'm happy to lean on Otrek and that insane favour store we've built up.
 
Appreciated, but unneded. We can finish it this turn with help from the apprentices, no need to spend favor.
This is, about as clear an opportunity to spend favor as we get. We have 555 Kraka Drakk favor and its just completely absurd. We could finish this with one action of ours and then 50 actions of the Hold if we really really wanted to.

We don't really have anything else to spend the favor on, so there's little point to hoard it, especially when we generate it in scads pretty frequently.
 
[] Plan Build That Hold and Rune Metal

I like this one best, that has a good amount of overflow and give the king a chance to pay us back, and that metal tease arch has been sitting there for too long
 
Appreciated, but unneded. We can finish it this turn with help from the apprentices, no need to spend favor.
We don't need to spend favor? Did you read the description?

- [ ] A Favour from Otrek: [Cost: 10 Favour from Kraka Drakk] Can be taken multiple times. Gain 1 progress. You have some amount of influence on King Otrek. Normally you have little need or desire to ask him for aid, much to his dismay, but here the pull and weight of a King can be of great use. At the very least it will help the man lessen the crushing weight of the debt he and his Clan owe you. Sometimes you wonder if you went overboard. Bah, nonsense!
Specifically the "help the man lessen the crushing weight of the debt he and his Clan owe you" part? Snorri has 555 Favor with Kraka Drakk, he could spend 100 favor on this and it wouldn't matter that much. Sure Snorri doesn't need to, but he can and he should.

Now, spending 100 favor would probably make Otrek unable to fulfill those favors because there is only so much time in a decade and thus make him feel worse, but still.
 
Multiple variations of spreading the workload (with two overflow, just to ease Otrek's favour debt), starting Yorri's commission (but not all at once, so we can still involve our apprentices in the hold founding), and doing a bit of research

[ ] Plan Team Odd Potato
-[ ] Odd Places 8/10: 1 action
-[ ] Render Aid: 1 retainer action
-[ ] Hold Founding: 1 action, 1 apprentice action
--[ ] Clerical Aid: 10 Favour from the Cult of Valaya
--[ ] A Favour from Otrek: 50 Favour from Kraka Drakk
-[ ] Durazkul: 1 action
-[ ] [Simple] Yorri's Request: 1 apprentice actions
--[ ] Accept

[ ] Plan Team Firebird
-[ ] Render Aid: 1 retainer action
-[ ] Hold Founding: 1 action, 1 apprentice action
--[ ] Clerical Aid: 10 Favour from the Cult of Valaya
--[ ] A Favour from Otrek: 50 Favour from Kraka Drakk
-[ ] Firebird's Feather: 2 actions
-[ ] [Simple] Yorri's Request: 1 apprentice actions
--[ ] Accept

[ ] Plan Team Master Rune
-[ ] Render Aid: 1 retainer action
-[ ] Hold Founding: 1 action, 1 apprentice action
--[ ] Clerical Aid: 10 Favour from the Cult of Valaya
--[ ] A Favour from Otrek: 50 Favour from Kraka Drakk
-[ ] Understand a Master Rune [Waking]: 2 actions
-[ ] [Simple] Yorri's Request: 1 apprentice actions
--[ ] Accept

[ ] Plan Team Chain
-[ ] Render Aid: 1 retainer action
-[ ] Hold Founding: 1 action, 1 apprentice action
--[ ] Clerical Aid: 10 Favour from the Cult of Valaya
--[ ] A Favour from Otrek: 50 Favour from Kraka Drakk
-[ ] The Rune Metal Pt. 1b: 2 actions
-[ ] [Simple] Yorri's Request: 1 apprentice actions
--[ ] Accept
 
We can, it's just that [Simple] tasks can't take as much Overflow as a [Difficult] task without the overflow being wasted.
I have to imagine there's a heavy narrative element. If someone orders 5 axes you can make them 10 but making 50 is a bit ridiculous so there's a limit there. But with a hold founding like this I doubt there's a real limit on how much we can put it other than how much we can actually get done in a decade.
 
Hey @soulcake nothing on the Wardstones?
I KNEW I FORGOT SOMETHING. brb.

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added to turn

(*New*)Wardstones: [Cost: 5 actions] Student of the Odd will proc. These Wardstones, the last creations of the Runesmiths of Karag Dum before they were wiped out, are capable of concealing the presence of a Dawi from the scrying of enemy magic. From Valka's testimony it wasn't perfect, but it made survival possible instead of impossible. That, and given the state of their resources, is a testament to their skill and canniness. A bit too quick to put to use in any other circumstance, uncovering the secrets of this Rune shouldn't be too difficult.
 
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[-] Recruitment Drive: [Cost: 1 retainer action] Locked due to Full Roster. Can be taken multiple times. Gain 1d5 +5 bonus dice per action to Recruitment Dice (1d10 +5). You have retainers, dwarfs who understand what it takes to become part of your Hearthguard, send them out to see if they can lend their expertise more and skill to improve the growth of your retinue.
If we decide to get a larger Hearthguard, how do we expand on the Roster?
 
(*New*)[ ] Hold Founding: [Cost 6 actions] Productivity Like no Other will proc. This is a great deal of work, one devoted wholly to crafting, ordering and coordinating with the survivors of Dum to properly supply them with the material necessary to found a Hold. While technically less difficult, the sheer scale of material required will be more than enough to make such a thing quite the daunting task indeed.
- [ ] Clerical Aid: [Cost: 10 Favour from the Cult of Valaya] Can be taken multiple times. Gain 1 progress. Who better for such a thing than the Cult of Valaya? Their expertise and pull will doubtlessly speed things along a good deal.
- [ ] A Favour from Otrek: [Cost: 10 Favour from Kraka Drakk] Can be taken multiple times. Gain 1 progress. You have some amount of influence on King Otrek. Normally you have little need or desire to ask him for aid, much to his dismay, but here the pull and weight of a King can be of great use. At the very least it will help the man lessen the crushing weight of the debt he and his Clan owe you. Sometimes you wonder if you went overboard. Bah, nonsense!
Huh. I was pretty ready to spend all Snorri and both Apprentice actions on Hold Founding this turn, reasoning to myself that we'll do the Yorri Request next turn with our Apprentices, but... now that this has been revealed, this has potential.

We could finish both the Hold Founding and the Yorri Request, if we use some of our favor! That's tempting. Heck, it's tempting not just due to the possibility of getting 2 things done, but due to the fluff -- whether you want to get the Valayans involved, the King of the Hold involved, or the Apprentices.

... Heck. It's even possible to do... 2 Apprentice actions. 1 Clerical Aid. 1 Otrek favor. 2 Snorri actions... and then 1 Snorri action on, say, Durazkul to finally finish that off as it only has 1 action left. Alternatively, it's possible to do 2 Snorri actions, multiple Valayan and Otrek favors; and 1 Snorri action on Durazkul; and then 2 Apprentice actions on the Yorri Request.

We have a surprising amount of possible potential flexibility here. ... It's also possible to Pull A Master Snorri, and throw 3 Snorri Actions, 2 Apprentice Actions, and 1 Cult of Valaya favor and 1 Otrek Favor... in order to throw 9 actions into a 6-action option. Not exactly efficient. But it would certainly be A Statement. It would be Snorri throwing around as much personal artisan-time and wealth and Dwarf-political-wrangling time, in the initial starting of the Karak.

[ ] Dreng Them: [Cost: 1 retainer action] Can be taken multiple times. Additional actions add bonus modifier. The Hearth Guard will go out and slay [Write-in] monster. Gain mats, reputation and +2 bonus per action to Recruitment Dice. While your Hearth Guard were also meant to clear all the ills that assailed dwarfkind, you must admit there are many a mundane foe to slay. Send these brave dawi out on a quest to slay beasties on your behalf, earn glory and give you materials to make ever more wonders.
I want them to hunt some Tier 4 or Tier 3 Greedy Trolls for their Hearts. Is that a possible target choice?

Actually, for that matter... Huh. Had an interesting thought. @soulcake, what happens if we give both our Hearth Guard and Prince Gloin (or Prince Gimli!) to go hunt Greedy Trolls?
[ ] Princely Hunting: [Cost: 10 Favour from Kraka Drakk] Prince Gloin will go out and slay [Write-in] monster. Gain mats. It would be ridiculous for you to ask your King to go gallivanting around the North to find something for you to make a Rune out of, but a Prince or Princess? Well, that's just you helping them build their legend through the slaying of monsters and aiding their elders. The rarer the monster the greater the reward, but it may take longer to find. Monsters slain by Gloin provide more material by virtue of being the entire beast rather than just ordering a singular organ.
Would that mean that narratively, a Prince or two and his/their retinue(s) hanging out with the Hearth Guard in order to sweep the north for Greedy Trolls? Or alternatively, friendly competition between the two, I guess. :p But cooperation might be more interesting. ... Plus. I like the thought of our Retainers hunting Trolls alongside Gimli or Gloin. That's interesting story fodder and history fodder right there, you know?
(*New*)[ ] Firebird's Feather [Cost: 2 actions] Student of the Odd will proc. You've got a feather! Its an odd little piece of deep red flaming plumage that emanates a faint heat and sometimes combusts into flames that do no lasting damage to it. Transported at great expense, barely a dent in your coffers though, and with a few notes and tales about the animal in question that it came from. A simple enough task to figure out what this thing will do. There's a large body of work regarding the firebirds of the north already, and you can use that as a good starting point in your own research.
Need to do this so we can figure out if it'd be good for the Master Rune of Infernos armor for one of the Griffon Prince pair. >< And also because it's just 2 actions, argh it's so cheap and easy to do and I want it!
[ ] The Secrets of Light Pt. 2: [Cost: (8 -1) =7 actions] Student of the Odd will proc. The Rune of Refraction has proven you can at the very least manipulate the power of light. Versatility is no longer an issue, but power, useability and overall purpose remain unclear to you. One potential avenue of research you'll be looking into could be a means of restoring sight.
Do you think this will see a boost when the High Elf book on Hysh get translated? If so, it might be interesting to start doing this research when that happens -- for the narrative/fluff interest, I mean. It'd be interesting to go back to this idea when we have a fresh input from the story itself.
[ ] Understand a Master Rune: [Cost: Variable with a max of 16 actions] Student of the Odd and/or Soul of the Earth may proc. The same idea as studying any rune in theory, in practice it takes a lot longer and there's often a large chance of explosions. The action cost is dependent on a variety of factors, but the amount of similar Master Runes you know, your specialties, and even if you made the Rune being worked on can reduce the cost.
Heh. Is the Master Rune of Waking still a viable choice for this one? ... Actually, for that matter... Is there only one Master Rune of Waking here? Or would we have to pick which Master Rune of Waking to do -- armor, weapons, engineering, etc?

... I wonder what a Master Rune of Waking on a BANNER would be like. (Is MWaking on a building or structure, just the Talisman version of the rune?) I mean, yeah sure, it'll just make the Banner wave automatically of course. But the idea of being able to complete the set of MWaking runes is amusing and curious. (Definitely a case of "Wait. Why did Valma figure out MWaking variants for weapons and armor?" "Well, she spent a lot of time on figuring out whether she 'could' rather than whether she 'should'... Curiosity, basically." Not viable for us, because we are just drowning in research opportunities, such that we can't afford to do something like this, but it's an amusing thing to think about!)

... Actually, I guess technically MWaking on a Banner might have some usage? Namely -- ships. Putting it on the sailcloth. Although that feels more like an Engineering Rune at that point to be frank. Then again, Dwarf ship MWaking usage would probably be on the mechanical parts of the ship... ... And even in a 'normal' sailing ship, it still feels like it would be more like an Engineering Rune than a Banner Rune to put it on the sail... There's airships, and small landships to skim on the ice, too I suppose. But, eh.
 
We can, it's just that [Simple] tasks can't take as much Overflow as a [Difficult] task without the overflow being wasted.
Again, there is no wasted overflow it goes into narrative benefits, and frankly we don't have a lot of information on how Simple's compare to Difficult requests.
 
I know it's inefficient, but on some level I want to see Snorri do the whole thing himself just to flex on the beardlings. In particular doing all of the public runework personally would be cool. Giving the whole place runes that are measurably more enduring and harder to suppress would be fitting for the survivors of Dum.
 
Make a Dwarf Gronti pulling a Wagon Gronti for land-bound trading? I imagined Gronti Mammoth, but that requires learning mammoth anatomy first. Maybe that Gronti focused Runelord can do that.
 
So, I would like to start chipping away at the Rune Metal. Either the main route or the Chain. I don't particularly care which.

There is, of course, the prestige of doing it, but I'm not sure that is going to sway any more people to the rune metal's cause.

There is, of course, the mats potential, but that has already been discussed and probably won't convince more people.

There is, of course, the standard that we would set by doing it. And that... I don't think that has been discussed all that much. If we can complete gromril chain or the next level of gromril, then it demonstrates that the capabilities of making the stuff are in the realm of mortal dwarves. It shows other runelords that even if you are from a distant line of Thungni you can achieve almost miraculous wonders. And it gives others goals to shoot for. Already Brana is working to the bone to uncover the secrets of Adamant. Valma now has the resources to start working on the Deep Magic. Going this next step in the Rune Metal though might inspire Dwarves from further away than the North. And I would like that.

Also, I see the Rune Metal as a challenge, one that I want to overcome. Not for the benefits of doing so, but because the journey would be awesome and the conclusion as sweet as honey.
 
I know it's inefficient, but on some level I want to see Snorri do the whole thing himself just to flex on the beardlings. In particular doing all of the public runework personally would be cool. Giving the whole place runes that are measurably more enduring and harder to suppress would be fitting for the survivors of Dum.
I don't think Snorri is going to be Runing the Hold, they haven't even chosen the spot to build it on! This will be Snorri crafting Runned items and buying materials for the Founding of the future Hold that Queen Valka will rule over.

As much as Snorri is Igna's Elder, she's probably going to want to do the big stuff herself. She is the last Runesmith of Metalheart, and thus Karak Dum, after all.
 
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So, I would like to start chipping away at the Rune Metal. Either the main route or the Chain. I don't particularly care which.

There is, of course, the prestige of doing it, but I'm not sure that is going to sway any more people to the rune metal's cause.

There is, of course, the mats potential, but that has already been discussed and probably won't convince more people.

There is, of course, the standard that we would set by doing it. And that... I don't think that has been discussed all that much. If we can complete gromril chain or the next level of gromril, then it demonstrates that the capabilities of making the stuff are in the realm of mortal dwarves. It shows other runelords that even if you are from a distant line of Thungni you can achieve almost miraculous wonders. And it gives others goals to shoot for. Already Brana is working to the bone to uncover the secrets of Adamant. Valma now has the resources to start working on the Deep Magic. Going this next step in the Rune Metal though might inspire Dwarves from further away than the North. And I would like that.

Also, I see the Rune Metal as a challenge, one that I want to overcome. Not for the benefits of doing so, but because the journey would be awesome and the conclusion as sweet as honey.
This is a very good argument. The most common previous seek the ancestor argument was starting to fall flat to me, but this gets me interested in it again.
 
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So, I would like to start chipping away at the Rune Metal. Either the main route or the Chain. I don't particularly care which.

There is, of course, the prestige of doing it, but I'm not sure that is going to sway any more people to the rune metal's cause.

There is, of course, the mats potential, but that has already been discussed and probably won't convince more people.

There is, of course, the standard that we would set by doing it. And that... I don't think that has been discussed all that much. If we can complete gromril chain or the next level of gromril, then it demonstrates that the capabilities of making the stuff are in the realm of mortal dwarves. It shows other runelords that even if you are from a distant line of Thungni you can achieve almost miraculous wonders. And it gives others goals to shoot for. Already Brana is working to the bone to uncover the secrets of Adamant. Valma now has the resources to start working on the Deep Magic. Going this next step in the Rune Metal though might inspire Dwarves from further away than the North. And I would like that.

Also, I see the Rune Metal as a challenge, one that I want to overcome. Not for the benefits of doing so, but because the journey would be awesome and the conclusion as sweet as honey.
Also consider the effect on Snorri if he makes the chain, here's something Thungni couldn't do and he did it. In this one small area he is better than Thungni. That's an insane thought and it would be pretty interesting to see him struggle with it and come to grips with the fact that the Ancestors are gods but not perfect ones.
 
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