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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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Watch out -- the Silver Ancestor is on the warpath!

[X] Tunnels: Take the paths down to the ritual site.
This sums it up pretty well. You literally have to reshape Dwarf society and positively impact it enough that they adopt your ideas. Either through the creation of an entire Craftguild like with Thungni or Morgrim, becoming so big brain at an existing one you basically suborn it entirely like Smednir or create one of the bedrock(heh) traditions and cultural maxims that steer Dwarf society at large.
So something absurdly big like plugging up the North or South Chaos wastes for good. Or blocking off the malevolent influence of Morrslieb. Or leading an exodus of Dwarfs from the world when the world ends or something.

... Or maybe something like founding an entire new Dwarf Kingdom in the New World perhaps? Gotta beat the Druchii to it, but hey. That one actually is more likely to see results in the form of ancestor divine worship. Mostly due to the fact that, presumably, a Dwarf Kingdom over in the New World would be so isolated from the Old World Dwarf Kingdom, that there would be a chance of culturally growing in different directions. Or, of needing 'local' Ancestor God-equivalents; needing local myths, local Ancestor Gods.

So... Extreme cultural impact is what it takes. And isolation can be one method to get a form of it, or of regrowing and re-founding a civilization after a Cataclysm -- so it's actually possible that the canonical Norscan Dwarfs and Chaos Dwarfs, could potentially have had the potential for getting Ancestor Gods of different sorts. But even then, that didn't end up happening. Other than whatever Hashut counts as for the Chaos Dwarfs. As the Norscan Dwarfs, at least, they ended up still keeping to the Ancestor Gods.

Hmmm... Thinking about it, there might actually be room for a particular Dwarf Ancestor God. Namely? Sailing! ... It'd have to become hugely important culturally to Dwarfs, though. But if it happened, and if there were some Dwarf that was as good at sailing as Grimnir was at War or Grungni at mining -- and assuming ships weren't seen as falling under the auspice of Morgrim -- then maybe it'd be possible. You'd basically have to carve an entire, and big, cultural 'niche' of sailing and maritime navigation and trade and warfare for this though. So it's kind of questionable really.

I guess if a Dwarf somehow discovered another form of magic -- and one that wasn't harmful like Hashut's sorcery which turns them to stone -- maybe that'd also count.
 
Honestly, in the Grombrindal = Prince Snorri Whitebeard scenario, I could see Snorri Whitebeard becoming the Ancestral god of Diplomacy given that he was the one that negotiated in this time-line, the oldest diplomatic relation between the Dawi and another sapient species, the Griffons and Dawi , provided the following:

1. Snorri Whitebeard befriends Malekith, and establishes the Golden Age relations between Dawi and Elgi.
2. Malekith never falls, and successfully ascends the Phoenix Throne. The War of Vengeance is averted.
3. Gazul passes the responsibility of the Dawi Inquisition across the Karaz Ankor against internal subversion to Snorri , as agents to prevent disloyalty to the High King.
4. Somehow, communications in the Karaz Ankor reach the point an actual centralized federal "modern" state emerges in the Karaz Akor, in the office of the High King and his royal bureaucracy.

In doing so, Snorri becomes the Ancestral God of the Karaz Ankor itself as a unified state, a united body that conducts diplomacy with other sapient races as one, following his pacts with both the King of the Sky and the Phoenix Kings that endure the test of time, and also the internal organs of said state - such as a federal "intelligence agency" that guards against subversion of the Dawi and ensure the continued loyalty of Dawidom to the Karaz Ankor and Ancestor Gods. He is the Patron God of the Diplomatic Corps, the Inquisition, and the Bureaucracy of the Karaz Ankor.

This goes to show just how many improbable (the Eastern Dawi do not all fall to Hashut level improbable) hoops Snorri/Grombrindal would have to cross to go from the upper end of Minor Ancestor gods to Major Ancestor gods. Snorri/Grombrindal needs to generate a fundamental Paradigm Shift in Dawi society, to make Diplomacy a concept fundamental in a way the other Ancestor Gods never really managed, to Dawi society.

As for our character, Snorri of clan Winterhearth, I'd say let's take it one step at a time. Let's first solidify our status as a Minor Ancestor of the Hold, something we are close to doing so, while laying foundations for the next stage, Minor Ancestor of the Far North. Only if we solidify our status as the Minor Ancestor of the Far North, might we consider how to break into the lower tiers of universal Dawi cultural Heroes, but I think that redefining the radical -Conservative paradigm or even creating a new third political paradigm altogether in Runesmith politics would secure that for Snorri in the Cult of Thungi. We are a long way from that point though, but I think the seeds are there.

Another path would be for Snorri to continue working with the Cult of Valaya, in time laying the extended foundations of an inter-guild Karaz Ankor wide institution to address Dawis who have sustained disabilities due to accidents and wars. This, as Moria warns, is a path that Snorri needs to walk carefully, but I think creating an entire brotherhood/sisterhood of Runesmiths dedicated to researching and crafting Prosthetics for the Cult of Valaya and the restoration of disbilities would be a start. It would be very difficult though, and indeed something that Snorri would probably only be able to do past the age of 1500 and with enough standing in the Cult of Thungi and Valaya to make an institutional development that is also life-changing for many, many unlucky Dawi over the centuries.

Let us above all remember the meme: Dawi Santa, with regards to our aspirations at Ancestorship.

@soulcake

Is the idea of "Sainthood" an appropriate analogy for thinking about Dawi Ancestors at the lower end of the Ancestor "gods" list, with the veneration of minor ancestor "gods" being akin to the Veneration of Saints at the level above the clan, minus of course a centralized body to confer Sainthood? So basically, it's a continumn starting with an Ancestral "Saint" venerated by a clan, then a hold, then a region or multiple, then Karaz Ankor wide with Grombrindal straddling the line between "saint" and "god"?

After all.... the whole idea of Snorri is that of a Runlord that might in time, posthumously become Dawi Santa.... Snorri who is Saint Nicholas who morphs into Dawi Santa after his life seems to be an apt analogy to the aspirations behind Snorri's design and themes.
 
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@soulcake : How hard would it be to get the rights to some design from the engineering guild? Doesn't really matter what the design is. Just to test out making a gronti assembly line for it.
 
@soulcake

Is the idea of "Sainthood" an appropriate analogy for thinking about Dawi Ancestors at the lower end of the Ancestor "gods" list, with the veneration of minor ancestor "gods" being akin to the Veneration of Saints at the level above the clan, minus of course a centralized body to confer Sainthood? So basically, it's a continumn starting with an Ancestral "Saint" venerated by a clan, then a hold, then a region or multiple, then Karaz Ankor wide with Grombrindal straddling the line between "saint" and "god"?

After all.... the whole idea of Snorri is that of a Runlord that might in time, posthumously become Dawi Santa.... Snorri who is Saint Nicholas who morphs into Dawi Santa after his life seems to be an apt analogy to the aspirations behind Snorri's design and themes.
Gosh it's been a long fucking time since I've read about anything regarding canonization and sainthood, but based on what I remember maybe? Sounds about right. Maybe, if you forgo the whole distinction between divine worship and asking a Saint to intercede on your behalf it's more accurate? Dwarfs don't really do gods like humans or elves do which makes things tricky to put into context. Like narratively speaking Ancestor God, you could maybe argue, is actually a misnomer due to the sheer impact and prevalence of the Seven Ancestors in Dwarf society.

Bah. I must consult the tomes.
 
@soulcake, purely theoretically, could Snorri hit Minor Ancestor status if he were to, say, perfect a reliable method of producing Glimril, and then over several millenia take and train enough apprentices that knowledge of Glimril production became widespread throughout the KA?
 
@soulcake, purely theoretically, could Snorri hit Minor Ancestor status if he were to, say, perfect a reliable method of producing Glimril, and then over several millenia take and train enough apprentices that knowledge of Glimril production became widespread throughout the KA?
If you hypothetically managed to do such a thing yes. It'd take a long ass time for the effect to propagate, but sure.
 
The feat that grants us the title of "Greater Ancestor God" should be us delivering toys to all of the Dawi children...in one night. Santa claus memes don't stop.
 
The other person with the capability to maybe make major Ancestor status is the King of The Sky, though with the Dwarves I expect him to kinda end up like Grombrindal. Everyone knows and respects him, and sees him as an ancestor equivalent for the Branroki. Not as good as their Ancestors of course, but thoroughly respectable. As for praying to him, the occasional dwarf asking him for the right weather only makes sense. To really push him up a tier, he probably would have needed to accompany Grimir on his final journey, and at the very least outlast all the other dawi except Morgrim, and preferably last as long as he did. That would have had an impact, to be sure.
 
I mean if we're laying out our wishes for the end game here I'd like to break the Rule of Pride fully somehow. Pretty impossible I know.
 
I real
The other person with the capability to maybe make major Ancestor status is the King of The Sky, though with the Dwarves I expect him to kinda end up like Grombrindal. Everyone knows and respects him, and sees him as an ancestor equivalent for the Branroki. Not as good as their Ancestors of course, but thoroughly respectable. As for praying to him, the occasional dwarf asking him for the right weather only makes sense. To really push him up a tier, he probably would have needed to accompany Grimir on his final journey, and at the very least outlast all the other dawi except Morgrim, and preferably last as long as he did. That would have had an impact, to be sure.

KotS harried Kholek for a turn/decade without dying. That is ... probably worth a Mythic deed.
 
THE VOTE IS LOCKED
Adhoc vote count started by soulcake on Nov 13, 2020 at 12:03 PM, finished with 269 posts and 124 votes.




Can one be an Ancestor God if one has no descendants?
Not really, if you have a Clan or even a distant relation that can suffice, hell Gazul forsook all his connections so...
Ahem, the answer is sorta not really? Direct Descendants would be nice but not required.
 
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Going after the ritual site passes with not just a landslide, but total unanimity with over 100 votes - 121 to be exact. That's an awesome sight to behold.
 
KotS harried Kholek for a turn/decade without dying. That is ... probably worth a Mythic deed.
Yeah, but its not as direct a comparison. If KotS went on Grimnir the Valliant's final journey, and kept going when every dawi but Grimnir and Morgrim turned back, and only turned back with Morgrim, then he would have explicitly equaled an Ancestor God in performance. That's the sort of thing that gets you respect in dawi society.
 
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