Mmm. See, there are stronger alternatives...

[X] ... The thing is, if Oriko was the only person in the equation here, she wouldn't have survived that alleyway meeting. She was unstable, suicidal, a threat... and on top of that, not only was she never going to stop being those things on her own, you really couldn't have done anything to help her change.
-[X] No, it's Kirika who is the reason Oriko isn't a problem. Kirika, who nobody notices or talks to, who is dismissed as ditzy at best and a lunatic at worst, but who only ever wanted one thing -- for Oriko to be happy.
--[X] Kirika never liked the idea of getting themselves killed, or even really having Oriko exposed to danger, but Oriko's magic was precognition. When Oriko told her that there was no way for her to save Oriko, she gave up, and decided that she would try to make Oriko as happy as possible in the time that they had. Figuring that arguing with Oriko was useless and wouldn't make her any happier, she went along with Oriko's plans, knowing full well that they would end in tears, hoping that she could at least make things a little happier before that happened.
---[X] You only did two things for the Kures -- you helped convince Oriko that her precognition wasn't absolutely guaranteed to be right... and you gave Kirika the slightest shred of hope that if she fought, she might actually be able to save the person she cared about.
[X] The chief reason, then, that you're so unworried about the Kures as-is is that making enemies of us -- endangering that future where the two of them get to be happy together with each other -- is the absolute last thing Kirika wants... and as long as she's convinced that that future is remotely possible, she's going to fight for it.

I might edit this a bit one way or another... I dunno. The parallels drawn between the people involved are really, really strong -- but for exactly that reason I'm slightly hesitant with them... Hm.
The last dozen arguments we have had with Homura have established that she does not respond well to emotional arguments. Saying that Kirika will fight for anything is dangerous. Your vote ignores the underlying objective of giving Homura a lesson in magical girl psychology that will help us in future arguments and make her better at handling stressful situations, both of which will significantly improve her quality of life long term.
 
...right, having slept now, I'm going to edit something into my vote.

Okay, edited in some stuff in the first line -- Homura asked us earlier today to explain Sayaka to her. Let's directly allude to that to get Homura to be more likely to listen to us about Oriko and Kirika.

Going to break the introduction down a bit, to explain my logic:
Future Sabrina said:
"Okay, I... I really should have done this before now, sorta like I did earlier today with Sayaka. I'm going to explain what I know about the dynamics at work and how that's informed my thinking, and more details on what I've done. I've asked you to trust me time and time again, and I've taken it for granted time and time again."

Start by alluding to our work with Sayaka, thus associating it with the massive change we're wrought there. Follow up by making it clear that we're going to tell Homura how and why we were able to get this to work. Then cap off the introduction by explicitly and implicitly apologizing for how we've handled this matter with Homura previous as well as the clumsiness of our opening of this topic just now. Subtext elements are "I've helped to change others already" and "We're partners"

(As an aside, dreaming about PMAS related stuff is really fucking weird for my sanity, please stop punching holes in the fourth wall, brain)
 
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Don't just feed a grief-seed random emotions. Feed her emotionally-imbued magic that's directed at the girl who is the grief seed, the twisted, pained, depressed, grief-stricken echo of the magical girl. Convey the following via emotions:

"You're not alone any more."
"I'm here, I'll help."
"Things can get better."
"I care about you, and I want to help."

and similar things.
this is actualy a really really good idea, let the witch inside know that its going to be alright, that you don't want to hurt them and you're going to help them get better,

Also
[X] godwinson
 
Anyway, so, idea that had come to me while I was dreaming, but not suitable for inclusion in this vote --

Ask Kirika to enchant antimagic gadgets that don't work on the Mitakihara Group but do work on Kirika and Oriko -- "I don't expect that these will ever be used, but if there's a misunderstanding, where they think Oriko is working against us... it could mean the difference between being able to convince others for restraint in how they check to make sure and... not. And I really want to make sure that nothing like that ever happens, Kirika."

Because we know Kirika's antimagic works on Oriko, and we'd brought forward the idea that her antimagic was the universe's great big hint.

Imagine being able to demonstrate that device to the others.

We get insurance that the Kures will survive that low-probability situation, Homura gets the insurance that the equipment exists, the Kures gets to really commit to a signal of being nonthreatening.

(It's not good to include in this vote, in case Kirika for some reason can't manage that enchantment, because it'd be extraordinarily corrosive to everyone's trust of them, even if it was for reasons not at all ones that they should be mistrusted for.)
 
I could easily see Kirika being unable to make an enchantment that works on Kirika but, yes, we've seen her do her antimagic on Oriko so that should definitely work. ...Unless she's subconsciously suspicious of why we want it or something and that prevents her from making the enchantment. ...Or if her wish interprets such an enchantment existing as not in Oriko's interests.

So yeah let's not bring it up here.
 
idea that had come to me while I was dreaming,
in a very weird state of mind right now,

It's all cool. Adjusting your powers? Shamanic initiation? Touched by the Goddess? Your Super Detective abilities have unlocked?
I'm just pleased, you said good things using the .. whatever it is that"s going on.

in case Kirika for some reason can't manage that enchantment,
My two cents... Sayaka would LOVE to make this item. She can practice next vote?
 
(It's not good to include in this vote, in case Kirika for some reason can't manage that enchantment, because it'd be extraordinarily corrosive to everyone's trust of them, even if it was for reasons not at all ones that they should be mistrusted for.)
The less it looks like it was entirely our idea the better. Can't actually claim that it wasn't, but presenting it to them already-complete would make the first impression credit O&K more than if we made it clear we suggested/argued it to them.

Would it be a good idea for Kirika to present it to Homura herself?
 
The less it looks like it was entirely our idea the better. Can't actually claim that it wasn't, but presenting it to them already-complete would make the first impression credit O&K more than if we made it clear we suggested/argued it to them.

Would it be a good idea for Kirika to present it to Homura herself?
I think it would be best to present the finished enchantments to everyone the next time that we're gathered up to handle their move to the new place and just don't bother saying who had the idea:

"Lastly, Kirika has thoughtfully provided us with one final layer of security--"
 
I think it would be best to present the finished enchantments to everyone the next time that we're gathered up to handle their move to the new place and just don't bother saying who had the idea:

"Lastly, Kirika has thoughtfully provided us with one final layer of security--"
Was thinking about the finished enchantments, yeah - next time we drop by with Homura, Kirika casually hands them to Homura before we leave, something like that. That works too, though.
 
The less it looks like it was entirely our idea the better. Can't actually claim that it wasn't, but presenting it to them already-complete would make the first impression credit O&K more than if we made it clear we suggested/argued it to them.

Would it be a good idea for Kirika to present it to Homura herself?
That is the very spirit of Knightly parole. If Kirika can prove to herself that this is Ojou-positive, she could.

Now, How may I get you to discuss the concept of definitely.....
including


Homura as a cause of Oriko's new existence.


My concern is to be uniform in applying affirmation. We understand the ins and outs of being the protagonist - but our dear friend is hurt by that.
We could ignore her status, and show her how wonderful we are easily. My request is that we tone that down, and in any way that we find truth, to let Homura share the agency. We must.
In point of fact, Oriko did feel bookended between our "fate break" and Homura's Timestop. It would be very much more difficult to broker this transformation without both. That is old news, but we are on a review tactic, so let's go at it. I want Homura to know it, and say it. She has a bias against that still. I bet she suppressed the credit due herself.

In that case, the reason soul gem analysis would be just out of reach for us because the soul gem we're analyzing is another person. We're trying to apply an effect based on will --- which is used for controlling our own "body"--- on their soul.
I like that you are wrestling this down! I would submit that you are ready to go to press when a thought experiment has been designed. Could you do that?
I would like to add that my view is slightly different early in the logic chain - could this be a issue involving Geometry before symbology?

If one girl wants to interact with the other's soul, slapping a Soul Gem about is a quick and dirty way to get in there. But, isn't that a high-tech proxy? Humans have souls, but no Gems. Our agreed axiom is that Souls are multidimensional, correct?

Then the easiest way to be "just out of reach" while still in range is to... not point at the right location?
We may lack control (or motive capacity) in the higher dimensional space that is a superset of all souls.
Is that the enabling logic of that {Dark Power} we had Sayaka copy? It is built around a simple ability to target in (5?) dimensions without blowing up a human mind interfaced to the power?
 
Was thinking about the finished enchantments, yeah - next time we drop by with Homura, Kirika casually hands them to Homura before we leave, something like that. That works too, though.
Yeah, that'd possibly work too, but being able to demonstrate the enchantment would be better. To show everyone on the team that they're really trying to cooperate and make amends.
 
this is actualy a really really good idea, let the witch inside know that its going to be alright, that you don't want to hurt them and you're going to help them get better,

Also
[X] godwinson
Witches are people too. Not very safe nor half as complete as they used to be, but some things that work on people should carry over.

Let's do it in German, and have runic flashcards with the same message for better contact?

Hmmmm now, I'm considering a musical Grief Seed interface... recalling Close Encounters of the Third Kind perhaps?
 
Random tangent, entirely theoretical and not at all making me want to brush off my meager art skills, and i dunno if it's come up here before, but:

Okay, so Sabrina's breaking the system, yeah? Improve the lifespan of magical girls and all that, sooo...
Do y'all think magical girl costumes will get a rework as they grow into women?
Will Sabrina succeed in converting people to pants? Will Mami still have an underbust corset? I can see most of their skirts turning more gown-length with slits and panels but idk.

(not at all led me to think about what Mami and Sabrina will wear for their wedding with Homu and Kirika as best woman and/or maid of honor. nop. not i)
 
Okay, yeah, Feathers is definitely Dedolere. She wasn't working off of any grand, long-term plan -- she was trying to arrange for Mami to have another kouhai, because she wanted to make Mami happy.

Thunk...
What is this like when we overlap ranges with "Don't need no Stinkin' Barriers anymore" Stage Constructing Witch? Doesn't she much overturn the visibility of Magic to "Sure! Look!"?

Does our power become unfocused? Or do we get to play as Ultra Instinct 'Brina until that status effect clears?

Random tangent, entirely theoretical and not at all making me want to brush off my meager art skills, and i dunno if it's come up here before, but:

Okay, so Sabrina's breaking the system, yeah? Improve the lifespan of magical girls and all that, sooo...
Do y'all think magical girl costumes will get a rework as they grow into women?
Will Sabrina succeed in converting people to pants? Will Mami still have an underbust corset? I can see most of their skirts turning more gown-length with slits and panels but idk.

(not at all led me to think about what Mami and Sabrina will wear for their wedding with Homu and Kirika as best woman and/or maid of honor. nop. not i)
It would be entirely in keeping with any human culture, ever.
Magia Quartet may never address such an issue? Madokami and Homucifer don't really apply to this logic, IMHO due their status as intangible and no longer human-scale.
You should go for it!
 
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More evidence that Feathers is Dedolere?

We know from other material that witches become more 'aware' when a magical girl is high on grief levels.

What comes to Sabrina's mind when she's high on grief, when Dedolere would be able most aware?

Despair lances through your mind, a powerful, sledgehammer blow that rips right through you. Useless. Why did you ever imagine you could help? Now Mami and Homura are looking to you, and you're going to fail an-
You utter failure.

Did you really think so highly of yourself?

Do you hear that?

That's Mami, screaming your name. Shaking you.

You reduced her to this.

She would have been better dead than stuck to your side.

You break everything you touch. Everyone you touch.

You bend them to your will because you know better.

Put her in a gilded cage, where she'll be safe.

Because you want to protect her.

These are not your thoughts.

The thread during the time around the barrier incident was having a serious toxicity issue, with constant morality flamewars. Sabrina wound up getting a huge uptick of grief shortly after meeting with Mami at school just before the barrier incident.

So, we have Sabrina feeling wretched about how Mami was doing in the space between the first and second barriers created, with horribly conflicted feelings about her lack of morality in "doing possibly bad things to make things better". Who was quite clearly willing to ignore Sayaka's alienation in order to focus on cheering Mami up--

"So what did you do?" Sayaka asks impatiently.

"MECHA GUREN ZILLA LAGANN," you repeat patiently. "That's what."

"And what is Mecha Guren Zilla Lagann?" Sayaka asks.

You grin. "Mami?"

She shakes her head, smiling.

"Well, there you have it," you say.

Sayaka scowls at you, while Madoka giggles quietly. You turn your grin on Mami, finding her watching you already with a content smile. Her fingers squeeze your free hand, still clasped in hers under the table. You squeeze back - it's not a hug, but it's an affirmation.

Sabrina, who is (as best as everyone in the thread can tell) either Ultimate Kriemhild Gretchen or Walpurgisnacht made human, whose witch would obviously be able to control/communicate with other witches. Who had so recently thought--
Mami takes a step back, golden eyes still fixed on you, and you smile at her, internally fretting about her. You... maybe if she had someone else to be a mentor to? Maybe?

What does Feathers do? Oriko's precognition gets fucked up, and Sayaka is herded directly into the path of becoming Mami's new kouhai.

Feathers breaks the things, the people she touches, bends them to her will because she knows better. Because she wants to help, but all that she can do is destroy.

EDIT: Oh, and? This happened in the chapter "Our Benefactor".

In Half-Life 2, "Our Benefactors" is the chapter where Gordon infiltrates an enemy installation wherein he loses all of his other weapons except for the gravity gun, which is then supercharged by the enemy technology.

In PMAS, "Our Benefactor" is the chapter where Sabrina heads into her barrier, which would be the home of Dedolere, and if Sabrina were to become Dedolere she would lose all her ability to do anything else other than break things as she tries to fix them, but in the process becomes an ontological threat.

The shift from plural to singular? Dedolere, not The Combine. Dedolere is our benefactor.
 
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Not really? Our wish was to control grief, not to control souls. Souls contain grief, so we can do some slight interaction with souls by proxy, but that's similar to the way that, say, Magneto can control the iron in someone's blood but not the blood itself.

The grief of magical girls is already the same thing as the grief of witches. And grief can naturally be transferred from one soul to another. A witches barrier is the inside of their soul, the same way that the inside of a soul gem or grief seed is.

What Sabrina's magic is doing is claiming her entire 100 meter range (plus whatever we extend our magic to with ribbons or other means) as "her soul" for the purposes of containing grief.
Yeah, I got a bit sleep deprived during the writing of that and by the end of it I was going back and putting poetic turns of phrase in place of dry(er) analysis. The divide between controlling grief and souls is kinda what I came to there though.

But cleaning it up, I think it can be put down as two hypotheses that got jumbled up in the same post:

The first is that our will deals in substance, rather than soul, and that it's the attempt to use our will that was the barrier to creating soul affecting items.

The second is that our magic has aspects of incarnation. Thankfully, if there's anything to that, we're not more than a handful of updates from starting the enchantment session and I had wanted to look into magical constructs anyways. Looking into this just needs superficial changes to the plan, not fundamental changes.

Okay, yeah, Feathers is definitely Dedolere. She wasn't working off of any grand, long-term plan -- she was trying to arrange for Mami to have another kouhai, because she wanted to make Mami happy.
Okay that? Is probably the best and most straightforward motive for what happened during Our Benefactor I've seen.

The events of the barrier incident do need a plausible mechanism for Dedolere to reach beyond our range and for why Oriko described the future she saw in that moment as truncated and spliced as opposed to changed but in light of how well the motive answers why, the questions of how aren't insurmountable --- even disregarding the possibility of weird unexplored aspects of our power --- and are more important in how they affect what we have to contend with.

Beyond that, the fact that Feathers more often shows up when we're away and Oriko's "similar in action but not in form" line do make me wonder if there are two Feathery entities, but I do think you make a pretty convincing point for Dedolere being the impetus for Our Benefactor, however our witch actually did it.

More evidence that Feathers is Dedolere?

We know from other material that witches become more 'aware' when a magical girl is high on grief levels.

What comes to Sabrina's mind when she's high on grief, when Dedolere would be able most aware?

The thread during the time around the barrier incident was having a serious toxicity issue, with constant morality flamewars. Sabrina wound up getting a huge uptick of grief shortly after meeting with Mami at school just before the barrier incident.

So, we have Sabrina feeling wretched about how Mami was doing in the space between the first and second barriers created, with horribly conflicted feelings about her lack of morality in "doing possibly bad things to make things better". Who was quite clearly willing to ignore Sayaka's alienation in order to focus on cheering Mami up--
I'll contend that I think the quoted sections there are the thoughts of other witches, not our own, due to the fact that the thoughts there match up to the barriers and likely life situations of the witches in question but that nitpick aside, your point works.
 
If Dedolere is Feathers (looking pretty likely, but there could be a curve ball), then how do we confirm it? And what do we do about it? I know somebody was kicking around the idea of "talking to our witch"; Don't know how that would work, though. Some sort of vision quest dealie?
 
If Dedolere is Feathers (looking pretty likely, but there could be a curve ball), then how do we confirm it? And what do we do about it? I know somebody was kicking around the idea of "talking to our witch"; Don't know how that would work, though. Some sort of vision quest dealie?
I'd like to see if we can do a sympathetic tracking spell or psychometric kind of deal: We have the feather safely contained in a sphere, so it seems like we could just make a device or construct to point it at its originator and/or read its history.

The latter would also help with "what do we do about it" as it could help point to what exactly happened that day while we were entranced.
 
Okay that? Is probably the best and most straightforward motive for what happened during Our Benefactor I've seen.
The events of the barrier incident do need a plausible mechanism for Dedolere to reach beyond our range and for why Oriko described the future she saw in that moment as truncated and spliced as opposed to changed but in light of how well the motive answers why, the questions of how aren't insurmountable --- even disregarding the possibility of weird unexplored aspects of our power --- and are more important in how they affect what we have to contend with.
Beyond that, the fact that Feathers more often shows up when we're away and Oriko's "similar in action but not in form" line do make me wonder if there are two Feathery entities, but I do think you make a pretty convincing point for Dedolere being the impetus for Our Benefactor, however our witch actually did it.
This assumes that Dedolere is subject to Sabrina's range limits, which seems a very odd thing to assume if Dedolere is an ontological threat on par with UKG or Homucifer. But even then, assuming there's a range limit from Dedolere that she can use her powers at? If Sabrina was made from Walpurgisnacht (or even moreso if she was made from Ultimate Kriemhild Gretchen), then there's a very good argument that those witches are part of her, and thus part of Dedolere. What range limits apply for affecting yourself? Hell, even beyond that, we know that ordinary witches can influence people at a distance from themselves:

"You were Kissed by a Witch," Mami says. "They can do that, and... draw people to them. It's part of how they hunt."

As for truncated and spliced? Witches are present in a magical girl's soul gems, and have the powers of the magical girl who they're part of. The future was spliced because Dedolere used Oriko's precognition via her witch to find the future she wanted to orchestrate. (Hell, assuming she would even need to do that, since Dedolere could arguably just griefhax up precognition herself.)

Feathers showing up more often when we're away? That just means that it's more likely for Sabrina to witch out when she's away, dealing with Bullshit, and Bad Things happen back home.

I'll contend that I think the quoted sections there are the thoughts of other witches, not our own, due to the fact that the thoughts there match up to the barriers and likely life situations of the witches in question but that nitpick aside, your point works.
Yeah, no, looking at the worries the thread had been voicing before each of those incidents? No, that's Sabrina's worries, reflected and amplified back into her by grief.


Beyond all of that? There's an even better meta-textual reason why Dedolere makes sense as the enemy -- she's literally an enemy we can't beat by way of stupid gimmicks, or firepower, or ruthless manipulation:

Except we know that Firnagzen is trying to tell a lighter, happier story. This is not up for debate.
  • Adfligo Systema. Our entire purpose is to break the system. PMAS is obviously intended to be a reconstruction of the deconstruction, the Gurren Lagann to PMMM's Evangelion.
  • Heroes should act, from the opening post. We're intended to be going out and proactively fixing things.
  • "Bad things don't happen for no reason."
  • "You can tell your own story with the same pieces, right?", in the context of Madoka not liking how grim 40k was. The implication is obviously that Firnagzen is doing the same thing, using the pieces of PMMM to tell a story that he prefers, one that's less sad.
  • Everything we do, from science to social, we're repeatedly rewarded for inclusion, teamwork, and idealism.
  • I get insightfuls from Firn on posts where I note how our powers appear to be designed to reward teamwork and cooperation.
  • Our powerset is a straightforward solution to the malthusian catastrophe that makes PMMM such a shithole in many cases.
  • Madoka literally wished to make the world better. Ultimately speaking, the root cause of PMMM's horrible grimness is that it's a philosophical statement. that philosophical statement is that "Hope is balanced by despair". Everything in PMMM revolves around that concept. In PMAS, that's been explicitly broken by a Madokami-tier Wish, with us as its instrument. The entire point of the quest is to have hope without despair.
  • Whatever nasty thing is talking to us in the invisitext, being WAFFy with our friend hampers its efforts.
  • Kirika's change to having antimagic in PMAS. The universe is literally telling Oriko to not die. That's as far from dark as you can possibly get.
Also, your payoff matrix is wrong. The top-right corner, where we act like it's dark when it's really fluffy, doesn't end in making some of our friends unhappy. It ends with our friends witching out and the quest bad-ending.
Vebyast's points are broadly correct here. PMAS is supposed to be a reconstruction, if you prefer the terms.
The thing is, it need not be easy. I delight in wordplay and hiding the answers in plain sight (and for the record, there are still a decent number you guys simply haven't noticed yet). I came into PMAS with a massive, massive freewheeling plan, and I've been writing to that plan ever since, even with adjustments. Kirika's antimagic was one of those solutions I hid in plain sight, and to be frank I've been cackling over it ever since. It wasn't easy to find, but the solution exists.

That aside, it's not, and it's never been, about the universe (or me) making life easy or giving rewards if the genre conventions are adhered to. As a general rule, the answers are hidden in the general direction of being kind, emphatic, and so forth. So continuing to be nice tends to have you stumble over the answers, as has happened before. Quite simply: the answers are in the direction of being excellent to people. They're not in the direction of being Hard Girls Making Hard Choices.

Oh, and one more quote for you guys:
It's always about the people, isn't it?
It's always been about people. Mami and Homura and Sayaka and Madoka. Kirika and Oriko. Masami and Hiroko.
It's always about the people.
=====​
Isn't it?
Saving the world, saving one broken little girl. What's the difference, eh? It's always about the people...
Gee it's like people are important :V
Being a magical girl isn't just about fighting. It's about people.
It's always been about the people.

...because she's the one enemy who we can only defeat by treating her like a person to be helped instead of an enemy to be defeated.
 
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Okay, yes, but I still want to know, how do we talk to Dedolere? Spitballing a few ideas:

  • Griefhax something up
  • @The Phoenixian's idea of tracing The Feather via psychometery (Maybe Oriko's new clairivoyance would help with that?)
  • Take up Umika's (the book girl from the Saints) offer on looking into our past
  • If the theory on us being UKG is true: convince Homura to take us to one of the timelines where Madoka witched, and talk to regular KG. (Actually, if we're checking out failed timelines, we might want to check out what happened to the previous one) (It goes without saying that the convincing Homura bit is going to be nigh impossible)
  • Infuse magic directly into our Soul Gem, or have Mami do it
  • Get high on LSD; go on a vision quest
  • Try manipulating the "core" of our Soul Gem w/ our grief control
  • Do more experiments with Sayaka copying our power
  • Bring back Rionnnnnnna, social-fu her into helping us OR have Sayaka use Rhiohnah's (passive) powers on us
  • Something something enchantment
  • Pray to Madokami for answers
EDIT: Of course, half of these are hilariously idiotic, but my point is to get us thinking on how we act on this theory.
 
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