I'm not gonna lie, I'm looking at this whole discussion from a bit of a distance, because... I really just don't care about Dedolere, in and of herself? Like, I'm getting the impression that there's meant to be some big buildup to a battle in the center of the mind or whatever, and it's just... not interesting to me.

Like, I'm straight up more interested about how we'll eventually handle Sasa.

Oh no, Sabrina has some deep dark urges to be a control freak, and we'll speech at Dedolere and give our soul some hugs and it'll be fine. Maybe write some sappy poetry to Mami in witch runes. Just be close to our friends and try our best to be kind and it'll work itself out.
honestly, it won't be that easy, it won't work itself out, al long as we keep being yourself and keep being flawed, which is inevitable, we are going to have issues, we are going to need to work through our own mental problems. therapy and trying to come to terms with your own mistakes is never easy and is never going to be done, you can go to therapy for years and still not be completely better. its a process, a journey where you have to accept you may never reach your destination but still be willing to take it
 
honestly, it won't be that easy, it won't work itself out, al long as we keep being yourself and keep being flawed, which is inevitable, we are going to have issues, we are going to need to work through our own mental problems. therapy and trying to come to terms with your own mistakes is never easy and is never going to be done, you can go to therapy for years and still not be completely better. its a process, a journey where you have to accept you may never reach your destination but still be willing to take it

It kind of has to be that easy. We, the quest thread, aren't a unified entity. It's literally not possible for Sabrina to get over all her issues as long as the thread is still open to any random posters getting into a disagreement about anything. As a trivial example, Sabrina going to therapy wouldn't stop Rionna from being a hot-button issue that can blow up the thread.

If "the thread being sane" is the PMAS win condition, we might as well pack up and go home. This brain damage is incurable. :V
 
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Doesn't mean we all need to agree, but it does mean we all need to try to be thoughtful about what the effects of our posts and our proposed plans will be in and out of quest, and...

Be kind to each other, mainly.
 
It kind of has to be that easy. We, the quest thread, aren't a unified entity. It's literally not possible for Sabrina to get over all her issues as long as the thread is still open to any random posters getting into a disagreement about anything. As a trivial example, Sabrina going to therapy wouldn't stop Rionna from being a hot-button issue that can blow up the thread.

If "the thread being sane" is the PMAS win condition, we might as well pack up and go home. This brain damage in incurable. :V
that's what I said, as long as we keep being us it won't really be over, we can't fix this in anyway unless we ourselves try to deal with it, which isn't something feasible. we can try to improve the situation, and get sabrina more in tune and understanding of that side of her but at the end of the day you can't fix this kind of thing at the source, only find better ways of dealing with it
and no that's not the win condition, the win condition is when we manage to change the system for the better permanently
 

Oh yeah, that was obviously just a dream-logic nightmare about, like, my unresolved trauma and anxieties with public school and capitalism. Even if I did wake up and have to check the PMAs thread to make sure Mami was still alive.

The rest of the time when Mami used to appear in my dreams she was much nicer, anyways.

jfc I can't believe you assholes almost gave me a tulpa
 
Just write a vote in witch runes, lol. Do it, you cowards.

WAY AHEAD OF YOU!! Granted, its not formatted as a vote because at this juncture that would be FAR too risky.


EDIT: Hm... thinking on this... a part of me thinks it's significant to remember that Sabrina's Magical Girl ring is inscribed with "Dedolere" and not "Sabrina"... should we address Dedolere as "Sabrina"? Apologies, just musing aloud.
 
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I'm not gonna lie, I'm looking at this whole discussion from a bit of a distance, because... I really just don't care about Dedolere, in and of herself? Like, I'm getting the impression that there's meant to be some big buildup to a battle in the center of the mind or whatever, and it's just... not interesting to me.

Like, I'm straight up more interested about how we'll eventually handle Sasa.

Oh no, Sabrina has some deep dark urges to be a control freak, and we'll speech at Dedolere and give our soul some hugs and it'll be fine. Maybe write some sappy poetry to Mami in witch runes. Just be close to our friends and try our best to be kind and it'll work itself out.

Considering Sasa is a person that is not Sabrina, this is entirely the intended emotional reading.

EDIT: Hm... thinking on this... a part of me thinks it's significant to remember that Sabrina's Magical Girl ring is inscribed with "Dedolere" and not "Sabrina"... should we address Dedolere as "Sabrina"? Apologies, just musing aloud.

It's because Sabrina didn't have a name when she Contracted, so no, Dedolere works.
 
WAY AHEAD OF YOU!! Granted, its not formatted as a vote because at this juncture that would be FAR too risky.


EDIT: Hm... thinking on this... a part of me thinks it's significant to remember that Sabrina's Magical Girl ring is inscribed with "Dedolere" and not "Sabrina"... should we address Dedolere as "Sabrina"? Apologies, just musing aloud.
so I translated the runes back into German and then again into English and I'm almost certain Google translate butchered it but here it is, first in German and then in English

"ähm ... hallo ... dedolere ... es ist ... ich ... ihre andere seite dürfen wir sprechen?"

"um ... hello ... dedolere ... it's ... i ... we can speak her other side?"
 
It's almost like all the magical girls we know have some horrible emotional damage.

Including Sabrina.

(Because "I don't give a fuck about my own wellbeing" is totes healthy, guise.)
I think that the running thing of "emiya syndrome" that was for a while is rather apt
sabrina is and wants to be someone who can change the world for the better and to quote "save everyone who is in front of me"
and to this end she doesn't really think about or even care at all if the world will even allow this to be possible or even if the pursuit of this ideal and goal will destroy her.
this isn't really a healthy state of mind to be in. both from the implications that she might not eventually succeed, or at least not in a way that truly makes her happy, as well as her tendencies of being a control freak and running roughshod over others. which I can really see as coming from the fear of not being able to do anything to help, and even further, the fear of being complacent.
 
Including Sabrina.

(Because "I don't give a fuck about my own wellbeing" is totes healthy, guise.)

I think our relationship with Mami, especially, helps mitigate that. It's still not great, but we have an incentive to keep our self safe bc it's precious to Mami, and our other friends. And personal happiness is now one of our goals!

I just really enjoyed that segment with Mami and Sabrina becoming official and would like to hold onto the warm feelsies. Progress is progress!
 
Guys. No. You're trying to do science and social at the same time! The world just doesn't work that way!

We don't want another despair-chicken incident while we're in the middle of comforting Homura! Keep the invisible vote idea on the table, sure. But keep it for when we've informed other people that we're about to try something, there are grief seeds at the ready, and we're prepared!

Safety procedures! Don't poke the ontological threat with a stick!
 
so I translated the runes back into German and then again into English and I'm almost certain Google translate butchered it but here it is, first in German and then in English

"ähm ... hallo ... dedolere ... es ist ... ich ... ihre andere seite dürfen wir sprechen?"

"um ... hello ... dedolere ... it's ... i ... we can speak her other side?"

It was meant to read:

"Ähm ... Hallo... Dedolere ... es ist ich ... Ihre andere Seite.
Dürfen wir sprechen?"

"Um ... Hello ... Dedolere ... it's me ... your other side.
May we speak?"
 
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This assumes that Dedolere is subject to Sabrina's range limits, which seems a very odd thing to assume if Dedolere is an ontological threat on par with UKG or Homucifer. But even then, assuming there's a range limit from Dedolere that she can use her powers at? If Sabrina was made from Walpurgisnacht (or even moreso if she was made from Ultimate Kriemhild Gretchen), then there's a very good argument that those witches are part of her, and thus part of Dedolere. What range limits apply for affecting yourself? Hell, even beyond that, we know that ordinary witches can influence people at a distance from themselves:
My contention here is that Dedolere is not inherently a UKG tier threat, rather, she quickly becomes one. The "Hilarious bootstrapping process" Firn mentioned seems more fitting for something with a trick up its sleeve to grow that strong, not one that's there already.

Which isn't to say it's an impossibility, just that something more than raw power has to be happening.

Likewise, my point about acting while we're away is not simply a mater of our range. If Dedolere was Feathers, I would expect our person to be the epicenter of such effects. Casting such a wide a shadow of calm around us sounds more like destructive interference between us and another presence.

You know, I really should have waited to have this realization until after we were done talking to Homura.
[X] Remain calm about any sudden insights.
Honestly, I'd rather just embrace that we'll think of things when we think of them.

For all I'm arguing with you, a lot of that is because I hate being certain too soon and you are making me alarmingly certain.

As such no small part of me wonders if the reason we're not hearing Dedolere's voice anymore is because the community has been deathly afraid of how our hypothesizing and realizations would affect Sabrina's train of thought, to the point of making explicit emergency rewrites to votes on it even.

If that voice reflects our own fears and thoughts, then it will never come when we fear our own thoughts intruding on our mind.

--------------------------------------------

As a side note, since you're back in Our Benefactor, does it read to you that Mami was struggling with trying to deny the Witchbomb that day? One of the things she said right before we went into our barrier was kinda her line for trying to rationalize away the lichbomb: "Magic can do amazing things."

From that moment:
"Sabrina..." Mami says hesitantly, cradling her elbow in one hand cupping her chin with the other. "Have you tried..." She trails off, and shakes her head. "No, never mind."

"Hm, Mami?" you say encouragingly, smiling at her.

Mami shakes her head again, but she reluctantly continues, hesitance in her words. "Have you... tried making an actual Barrier?" She abruptly waves her hands frantically in a pacifying gesture. "It's just an idea!"

"I did, actually," you say. "It... well, it worked. I managed to make a Barrier."

"Oh," Mami says. "Oh."

"Um, Mami?" you ask, directing a quizzical expression at her.

She doesn't respond immediately, before she slowly shakes her head again, eyes refocusing on you. She assays a little smile. "No... it makes sense," she murmurs. "Magic can be strange, and... wonderful, and I've never heard of anything like your powers, so it stands to reason, right?" She steps forward, arms spreading in an unspoken request for a hug.

And from the lichbomb:

Mami looks increasingly distressed, worried lines forming around her eyes, still puffy and red from her crying. "What is it, Sabrina?"

"We- Magical girls can survive injuries that would normally kill people... Injuries that can kill instantly." You swallow again, but it doesn't really budge the lump in your throat. "Impossible injuries. You- we can survive them."

Mami blinks. "Y-yes, magic can do amazing things..."

You shake your head. "Mami, with healing, we can walk away from a severed head, or having your lungs, and heart, and half your torso gone. Oriko did. Masami did."

A cringe. "W-with m-magic, m-miracles can h-happen..."

Because, well... it occurs to me that she was hiding under the idea that, if it's magic, then she doesn't have to explain it.

And I don't put it past Firn to make a play on a meme like that.
 
My contention here is that Dedolere is not inherently a UKG tier threat, rather, she quickly becomes one. The "Hilarious bootstrapping process" Firn mentioned seems more fitting for something with a trick up its sleeve to grow that strong, not one that's there already.

Which isn't to say it's an impossibility, just that something more than raw power has to be happening.

Likewise, my point about acting while we're away is not simply a mater of our range. If Dedolere was Feathers, I would expect our person to be the epicenter of such effects. Casting such a wide a shadow of calm around us sounds more like destructive interference between us and another presence.



Honestly, I'd rather just embrace that we'll think of things when we think of them.

For all I'm arguing with you, a lot of that is because I hate being certain too soon and you are making me alarmingly certain.

As such no small part of me wonders if the reason we're not hearing Dedolere's voice anymore is because the community has been deathly afraid of how our hypothesizing and realizations would affect Sabrina's train of thought, to the point of making explicit emergency rewrites to votes on it even.

If that voice reflects our own fears and thoughts, then it will never come when we fear our own thoughts intruding on our mind.

--------------------------------------------

As a side note, since you're back in Our Benefactor, does it read to you that Mami was struggling with trying to deny the Witchbomb that day? One of the things she said right before we went into our barrier was kinda her line for trying to rationalize away the lichbomb: "Magic can do amazing things."

From that moment:


And from the lichbomb:



Because, well... it occurs to me that she was hiding under the idea that, if it's magic, then she doesn't have to explain it.

And I don't put it past Firn to make a play on a meme like that.
oh heck.
so its possible that mami has stumbled onto, if not the witchbomb, then at least the idea that witches and magical girls are somehow related, and is trying to convince herself she is just imagining it? that is simultaneously very bad and possibly might be good
I don't think I need to say why mami learning the witchbomb is super bad, but from what we see, figuring it out over time is one of the less damaging ways you can learn about it, as opposed to seeing a friend witch out in front of you
 
oh heck.
so its possible that mami has stumbled onto, if not the witchbomb, then at least the idea that witches and magical girls are somehow related, and is trying to convince herself she is just imagining it? that is simultaneously very bad and possibly might be good
I don't think I need to say why mami learning the witchbomb is super bad, but from what we see, figuring it out over time is one of the less damaging ways you can learn about it, as opposed to seeing a friend witch out in front of you

On the other hand I think Tetris Mami was caused by the exact type of situation where she's constantly trying to think about whether it's true and denying it to herself in her mind and then suddenly getting proof.
 
I'm not gonna lie, I'm looking at this whole discussion from a bit of a distance, because... I really just don't care about Dedolere, in and of herself? Like, I'm getting the impression that there's meant to be some big buildup to a battle in the center of the mind or whatever, and it's just... not interesting to me.

Like, I'm straight up more interested about how we'll eventually handle Sasa.

Oh no, Sabrina has some deep dark urges to be a control freak, and we'll speech at Dedolere and give our soul some hugs and it'll be fine. Maybe write some sappy poetry to Mami in witch runes. Just be close to our friends and try our best to be kind and it'll work itself out.

I kind of sympathise insofar that I've never been that interested in the Persona games and didn't enjoy the original Eva ending and this sounds like it might turn into that sort of thing. :p
 
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