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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Hmm. I'm actually wondering why we didn't try anything to fix Oriko's precog previously. I would have expected a thread full of SVers to salivate over assembling a team of Sabrina, Mami, Homura, Kirika and Oriko. Mami is the only one on that list without a really massive exploit; working together, with infinite mana, even Mami gets silly.

On that note, it just occurred to me to wonder if there's a reason she fires her muskets by hand, as opposed to using more ribbons to hold and fire them. And whether we could hand her some grief artillery to use when we fight with her. Same goes for Homura; I'd expect both of them are vastly more effective than Sabrina with any kind of gun, or indeed, any weapon but Sabrina's own hammer. That would give us much better immediate-response firepower, due to them having functional Spidey-sense and, you know, survival instincts.

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Onmur said:
Does that mean rocking her won't help?
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I wouldn't count on it. I'll consider it a win if she so much as survives this.
 
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Spicier-Angel said:
On that note, it just occurred to me to wonder if there's a reason she fires her muskets by hand, as opposed to using more ribbons to hold and fire them.
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Watch a video of her fight against Homura in Rebellion -- she doesn't need to hold them to fire them, she can mimic assault rifle rates of fire with a constantly cycling semi-circle of floating muskets. I think her combat effectiveness pretty clearly scales with her emotional wellbeing, and in Rebellion Mami had a whole team of friends to support her, so her normal emotional issues weren't present.
 
landcollector said:
That's an eventual goal, yes, but in the meantime we're trying to provide reasons for Homura to not just kill O&K.
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Oh. Um, I caught up to this point almost exclusively by reading the story, and I actually didn't even suspect that was a priority. We could stand to be rather more proactive on that. On a lot of things, really, which means we should start looking for ways to delegate or drop stuff that doesn't require Sabrina's personal attention.
Godwinson said:
she can mimic assault rifle rates of fire with a constantly cycling semi-circle of floating muskets.
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That's not the most interesting application. An assault rifle can fire, however quickly, at only one thing at a time. If Mami could shoot at lots of things at once, that would be the higher-performance application. Not a rifleguca with a decent gun, but a bunch of rifleguca at once. If she could accurately fire grief-based artillery in the same manner, that would be great.

Yes, I'm remembering the phaser experiment. Demonstrating that the bullshit doesn't want to leave our range only means we need to build a different type of gun. A laser might well work, but if nothing else we can almost certainly do a bullshit-augmented projectile weapon. A railgun could work, but we might as well ask for a conceptual artifact that accelerates its projectiles to the highest speed that's still safe for the one firing it (a round of testing with various muzzle velocities and diameters would be advisable). Let the grief take care of the implementation, it's not like we lose anything by doing so.
 
landcollector said:
Due to Homura's...Homura-ness...it's going to be slow progress with most any method we may devise.
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There's an important distinction to be made among the different kinds of slow progress. Some of them are slow because the underlying process can't move very quickly. Others are slow because it's a tricky problem, and you expect to make mistakes that undo progress reasonably often. And a third type of slow progress is slow because you're trying to be hypercautious. My own experience has been that slow progress with people, on almost anything, is usually the second or third more than the first. Do you have a strong opinion about which we're dealing with here?
 
defenestrator said:
The only permanent effect we can make from Transmuted Grief are physical/mundane ones, like the blasted concrete from our phaser or the uprooted rose bushes.
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'Physical', yes. But that doesn't even remotely mean 'mundane'. Remember that everything Kyuubey does is done using tech, not magic. Since magic is conceptual and intent based and stuff, we don't even need to know how the device works, let alone how to make a device to build the device we want. We just need to tell our grief construct to make the item that makes the item we want, and it'll pull whatever information it needs out of where ever like it has every other time.

defenestrator said:
What you want requires magic. It would have the same effect as the Rod of Ascelpius: the ring would remain, but the pain-blocking enchantment runs on grief-transmuted magic, so it'll run out of juice when we get out of range.
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No, it doesn't require magic. At least, not necessarily. Again, everything Kyuubey does is done using tech, including creating and manipulating Soul Gems. It seems entirely possible that we can have our grief build a device that does what the ring is currently doing that doesn't require magic. And even if we can't, making something that can be powered by Kirika or Oriko's magic instead of needing to be powered by ours should definitely be possible.

Spicier-Angel said:
we might as well ask for a conceptual artifact that accelerates its projectiles to the highest speed that's still safe for the one firing it
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Oooh, I like this idea. I like this idea a LOT. I had done a bit of math earlier, and (assuming I did it right), if we make our railguns 140 meters long with 1/2 meter wide ammo, and allow another 1/2 meter for the rest of the constructs and a bit of space between them, we can easily fit over 20,000 of them within our range. If your idea lets us make the constructs even smaller without a loss, or perhaps even a gain, of firepower...

Yea. Walpurgis Nacht is going to be very, VERY dead. Just uh, be sure not to aim at the ground.

landcollector said:
Due to Homura's...Homura-ness...it's going to be slow progress with most any method we may devise.
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Maybe we should try to cheer her up? One of her biggest worries right now is killing WPN when it shows up. Do you suppose demonstrating our OMGLOLWTF levels of massive firepower would help?
 
CapnQwerty said:
Oooh, I like this idea. I like this idea a LOT. I had done a bit of math earlier, and (assuming I did it right), if we make our railguns 140 meters long with 1/2 meter wide ammo, and allow another 1/2 meter for the rest of the constructs and a bit of space between them, we can easily fit over 20,000 of them within our range. If your idea lets us make the constructs even smaller without a loss, or perhaps even a gain, of firepower...
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That sounds unwieldy. Edit: misunderstood; didn't notice you were in favor of the handwavium. It'll be witchy no matter which way we do it, so we might as well take advantage of bullshit to make them as small as practical. Don't specify how the gun works, just specify a muzzle velocity and let the rest be made of handwavium. If we later discover a reason for building the gun in any particular way, we can add that part as soon as we discover the reason. Sure, conceptual artifacts can be used for stuff that can't be done any other way, but another advantage of the capability is that we don't need to know how things work in order to summon and operate them, within some currently-unknown limits.

Plan B is to find out what is Mami's maximum rate of fire for Tiro Finale. And how many she can have active simultaneously, if she prepares them ahead of time. It wouldn't be very finale any more, but it would be a lot of tiros.

Plan A version 2 is to do both, because why not? Until we find an actual limit somewhere in this mess, we might as well keep pushing.
 
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CapnQwerty said:
Oooh, I like this idea. I like this idea a LOT. I had done a bit of math earlier, and (assuming I did it right), if we make our railguns 140 meters long with 1/2 meter wide ammo, and allow another 1/2 meter for the rest of the constructs and a bit of space between them, we can easily fit over 20,000 of them within our range. If your idea lets us make the constructs even smaller without a loss, or perhaps even a gain, of firepower...
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What about when the cross-section of the sphere narrows to shorter than 140 meters in diameter? In practice, 20,000+ railguns isn't happening.
 
landcollector said:
What about when the cross-section of the sphere narrows to shorter than 140 meters in diameter? In practice, 20,000+ railguns isn't happening.
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More to it, I'll point out that Walpurgisnacht took two anti-ship missiles and an entire arena filled with C4 and was completely unharmed. The amount of conventional force required to take out Walpurgisnacht might well be at the point where the city itself won't survive being nearby it. And the entire city being destroyed will almost certainly result in Madoka contracting, which is a failure state.
 
Godwinson said:
More to it, I'll point out that Walpurgisnacht took two anti-ship missiles and an entire arena filled with C4 and was completely unharmed. The amount of conventional force required to take out Walpurgisnacht might well be at the point where the city itself won't survive being nearby it. And the entire city being destroyed will almost certainly result in Madoka contracting, which is a failure state.
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Obiviously, we need to cast Meltdown on Walpurgisnacht first.

(Cut Defense stat in half)

:p

Actually, it would be nice to try and work buffs and debuffs with our powers. Problem is again, range, but supposing Walpurgisnacht is too strong for us to tear it apart, we could instead stay close enough to it to affect it, and will its Grief body to be weaker, so everyone else's attacks could be more effective.
 
Onmur said:
Obiviously, we need to cast Meltdown on Walpurgisnacht first.

(Cut Defense stat in half)

:p

Actually, it would be nice to try and work buffs and debuffs with our powers. Problem is again, range, but supposing Walpurgisnacht is too strong for us to tear it apart, we could instead stay close enough to it to affect it, and will its Grief body to be weaker, so everyone else's attacks could be more effective.
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Where does a spell called Meltdown do that? Only place I've seen that spell before is Final Fantasy 6, and there it's a powerful offensive spell that is both fire and wind elemental, ignores defense, and hits all enemies and allies.
 
justinkal said:
Where does a spell called Meltdown do that? Only place I've seen that spell before is Final Fantasy 6, and there it's a powerful offensive spell that is both fire and wind elemental, ignores defense, and hits all enemies and allies.
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FFVIII.

(It actually doesn't cut defense in half, it destroys it completely)
 
Spicier-Angel said:
That sounds unwieldy. Edit: misunderstood; didn't notice you were in favor of the handwavium. It'll be witchy no matter which way we do it, so we might as well take advantage of bullshit to make them as small as practical. Don't specify how the gun works, just specify a muzzle velocity and let the rest be made of handwavium. If we later discover a reason for building the gun in any particular way, we can add that part as soon as we discover the reason. Sure, conceptual artifacts can be used for stuff that can't be done any other way, but another advantage of the capability is that we don't need to know how things work in order to summon and operate them, within some currently-unknown limits.

Plan B is to find out what is Mami's maximum rate of fire for Tiro Finale. And how many she can have active simultaneously, if she prepares them ahead of time. It wouldn't be very finale any more, but it would be a lot of tiros.
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My point was that even at that size, we can still fit a huge number of them in our range. If we can make them even smaller without sacrificing firepower, we can fit even more.

landcollector said:
What about when the cross-section of the sphere narrows to shorter than 140 meters in diameter? In practice, 20,000+ railguns isn't happening.
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I don't think you understand how large 100 meters really is.

Look. A cube with a length of 1 can be fit entirely inside a sphere with a radius of 0.7, and thus a diameter of 1.4. The diameter of Sabrina's control sphere is 200 meters (100 in each direction), so that means the largest side length a cube inside it can have is about 142 meters. One side of this cube has an area of about 20,400. My example railguns had a cross section of 1 square meter. You see?

Godwinson said:
More to it, I'll point out that Walpurgisnacht took two anti-ship missiles and an entire arena filled with C4 and was completely unharmed. The amount of conventional force required to take out Walpurgisnacht might well be at the point where the city itself won't survive being nearby it. And the entire city being destroyed will almost certainly result in Madoka contracting, which is a failure state.
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The city won't be destroyed as long as we're not stupid enough to fire at WPN from above.

The density of steel (our most likely source of ammo) is about 7859 kilograms per cubic meter. If our rounds are 1/2 meters wide and 2 meters long (as an example), they weigh about 12,300 kilograms. Modern railguns can launch rounds at 2500 m/s. That's a momentum of about 3*10^7 and a kinetic energy of about 38.4 gigajoules. That's about 10 tons of TNT worth of energy. Per shot. And we haven't even begun to hit the limit of our muzzle velocity, which I believe would be in the area of 'a bit before the projectile starts fusion with the air', so around 2500 kilometers per second. 3*10^10 units of momentum, 38,400 gigjoules, 10,000 tons of TNT. Times 20,000 shots. And since none of this is explosive ammo, it'll either shred the witch, or send it careening in whatever direction the shots are traveling.

And heck, it's not like WPN ever really tried to dodge, so we could just keep smacking it upwards with a giant hammer construct or something until it's high enough off the ground that collateral damage isn't a problem. Hell, if we can knock it out of the atmosphere, we can push the muzzle velocity even higher.

Though I suppose none of this is necessary if Sabrina can just disintegrate it with a thought like she can with every other witch so far.
 
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Residue processing pt. 32
  • Threadmarks
    • Oriko seems thoughtful, brow creased in thought. You're pretty sure she knows you're driving at something in particular, and she's trying to figure out what you might be driving at.

    Good. At least you're on the same page.

    You consider just telling her, outright. That another Oriko, elsewhere and elsewhen, realised that Kirika was the meaning of her life, as sappy as it is.

    Then again.

    Saving the world, saving one broken little girl. What's the difference, eh? It's always about the people...

    "The world's a big place," you say meditatively. "Does it really matter to you that much? Do people you've never met, people who hate you really mean as much to you as people you know and care about?"

    "That, coming from you?" Oriko asks.

    "I'm not saying be selfish," you murmur, crossing one leg over the other and leaning forward to rest your elbows on your thighs. "I'm saying that you can want to save the world, but you can have a reason for wanting to do that."

    "Saving the world sounds preeeetty good to me," Kirika offers, waving a hand at the ceiling.

    "Sure," you agree. "But it's a goal, not a reason."

    "Oooh. Ooooh, I geddit," Kirika says, nodding sagely. She promptly turns over and cuddles against Oriko.

    Come on, Oriko, you're a smart girl, if a bit addicted to convoluted, Byzantine scheming and there's a great big hint attached to your side right now.

    ... Sweet merciful Madokami above but you want to say it.

    "Sabriiiinaaaa? You OK?" Kirika asks curiously, lifting her head to peek at you. "'skinda stuffy in here, isn't it?"

    You probably didn't keep all of that last thought off your face, did you. "It is," you agree. Kirika nods, looking satisfied.

    You return your attention to Oriko, watching as the seer stares up at the ceiling, lost in thought. Tsk. Missing the forest for the trees, probably, because she's wrapped up in trying to figure out what vast conspiracy there is working the skeins of reality threaded through her skull or some such.

    You sort of wonder if you've missed anything important. In general, anyway. Here and now, you're pretty sure on this particular little problem with Oriko.

    "What did your magic show you when you first made your Wish?" you ask quietly. You press your lips together, considering for a moment, before adding, "I'm not asking just out of curiosity. I think... I think we might need to do some things differently."

    Oriko frowns at you. "I saw... you. Akemi Homura, Kaname Madoka. The Incubator's machinations. Kirika. But what do you mean?"

    You purse your lips for a long moment, turning the thought over in your mind. "I think what's wrong with your magic has to do with your wish- if you don't know your purpose yet, if you can't achieve it trapped like this... I don't know. Just think about it, okay?"

    Oriko nods slowly. "Will you let me go free, then?"

    You shake your head. "I don't think I can. Not yet, maybe. Homura, you know? But..." you chew on your lip for a moment. Another hint, since she still hasn't figured it out? "A thought, Oriko. When we fought, saving the world was what you were willing to die for," you say slowly.

    Kirika rolls over, wrapping Oriko in a protective hug.

    "But what were you willing to live for?" you ask, letting your eyes flick to the oblivious form of Kirika, and then back to Oriko.

    You sigh, swirling the teacup in your hand around and watching the little bits of tealeaf drift along in the current before.

    Oriko regards the girl wrapped around her with a thoughtful air. Eventually, she shakes her head slowly. "I... have an inkling of what you're trying to tell me, Sabrina," she says. "But I don't think I understand."

    You purse your lips and exhale slowly. "We'll find a way to fix this. Really."

    The seer nods cautiously, not saying anything more.

    "Feh," you grunt, and reach out to replace the teacup on the tray. With your other hand, you pull your phone out of your pocket and check the time.

    ... you know, it's sort of interesting that stuff in your civilian clothes remains when you transform? They even redistribute themselves in the pockets of your longcoat, which is nice.

    It's only nine or so - you didn't spend that much time travelling here or talking to Oriko. A thought strikes you, and you glance back at the seer.

    "Hey, Oriko?" you ask. "One more thing. Why did you try and hide it from me? I could have helped earlier if I'd known."

    Oriko sighs. "It was only pain," she murmurs. "I had hoped I could deal with it myself."

    You purse your lips. "Oriko... I want to help."

    "And sometimes, I want to be able to do things by myself," she counters calmly.

    You sigh, closing your eyes. "Point taken. Anyway. I'm going to drop the interdiction barrier now, unless there's anything else?" you say.

    Oriko shakes her head, while Kirika doesn't say anything else, apparently content to wind her fingers through Oriko's mass of silvery hair.

    Without getting up from the chair, you wave idly at the sphere, and it collapses like a bubble popping. Fresh, cool air floods in, a welcome relief after the stuffy interdiction sphere, and you take a deep, grateful breath. A thought sweeps the Grief aside, pouring back out of the window from whence it came.

    "Ooh, fresh air!" Kirika exclaims, bouncing off the bed and spinning in a circle, arms outstretched. Far too much energy, that girl. You briefly consider giving her wings at some point - she wants to fly, doesn't she?

    Heh. 'Red Bull gives you wings'.

    You take a moment to imagine Kirika on Red Bull, or any other energy drink, and shudder.

    Kirika finishes her piourette and drops back onto the bed, flopping lengthwise across Oriko before curling up against the seer.

    "Anyway, I'm going to talk to Mami and Homura, OK?" you say. You reach out telepathically for your friends. "Mami, Homura?"

    "What is it?" Homura responds almost immediately, followed a hair behind by Mami's cheerful, "Hi, Sabrina!"

    "Hi Mami, Homura," you say. "Hey, um, there's a bit of a problem with Oriko."

    "Do you need me there?" Homura replies sharply.

    "No... not that kind of problem," you say. "Oriko's... powers seem to be acting up. And I can verify it; her Soul Gem does not look right. She's in crippling pain, and she kind of has to stay within a hundred meter range of me."

    Homura's glower is so loud you can practically smell it from over here.

    "Sabrina, you should be careful," Mami says. "She was our enemy, once."

    "I know, I know," you say. "But she's in pain. I... I was thinking maybe Oriko and Kirika could follow me for a while today, at least until lunc-"

    "No." Homura's voice is glacially remote.

    [] Write-in

    =====​

    Oh. Mom Homura put her foot down.
     
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    • Yeahhhhh in retrospect that wasn't a smart thing to ask. We just apologized for this last night.

    Edit: So, let's see. We can't bring her with us, and we definitely can't stay at her house all day. (convincing Homura is something we've already tried and failed to do- she's not budging on this one)

    We may want to ask them if it'd be preferable to be rocked for the day.
     
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    Firnagzen said:
    "I know, I know," you say. "But she's in pain. I... I was thinking maybe Oriko and Kirika could follow me for a while today, at least until lunc-"

    "No." Homura's voice is glacially remote.
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    Ah. I had worried this might happen.

    Alright. Pushing her on this is probably a really bad idea. Mami doesn't seem to think we should do it either, and we called them specifically because we wanted them to be part of the decision. We have, in short, been outvoted.

    Since it's only 9, we do still have a couple hours to try and find a more permanent solution.
     
    If there is absolutely no way we're getting Homura to agree, then the least we could do is spend the next couple of hours with O&K, give them both a stress-and-pain-free nap, while we do stuff we can accomplish even just sitting down.

    Couple of those we can do with just telepathy: Contacting the Sendai/Ishinomaki groups and hash out the cleansing trip this weekend, maybe check on how things are going so far in their end. Another, if it's after 10 am by then is to contact Masami and Hiroko about training Ono.

    After that... I guess kill some time and do some not too time-consuming experiments on Oriko's backyard.
     
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