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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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landcollector said:
So are Oriko and Kirika, and yet you seem to have no problems giving them the short straw.


And she's killed them way more than once. Your point?
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I have problems losing one ally to gain them when they seem to understand.

And the difference is they seem like they'd be willing to drop it, since they don't remember being killed. Homura remembers them killing Madoka. I mean, are you really suggesting we just ignore Homura's grievance and take them out of the house? She'll find out and it'll be a massive shitstorm and we'll all feel really dumb for doing something that was so obviously going to blow up in our face.

And so far as arguing it at her again, we don't have anything new to bring to the argument, hence, the exact same thing will happen and we'll piss off Homura again. We need to find a different way, or come up with new things to argue. "But Oriko is a person and I don't want her to suffer/be trapped let's let her help us" is something we've already said to Homura and she regards that option as somewhere in the same category as dumpster diving in the bio-hazard bin outside the hospital. We need a different argument.
 
We could also try and see if we can outright block O&K's magic. Make them defenseless.

Also, ask Oriko how she sees this conversation going?
 
Gadjo said:
And the difference is they seem like they'd be willing to drop it, since they don't remember being killed. Homura remembers them killing Madoka
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How does that change the fact that she's killed them over and over, likely even when they hadn't contracted. Say what you will, but that's not justifiable.
Gadjo said:
"But Oriko is a person and I don't want her to suffer/be trapped let's let her help us" is something we've already said to Homura and she regards that option as somewhere in the same category as dumpster diving in the bio-hazard bin outside the hospital. We need a different argument.
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I agree, but I don't know of a way to get through her issues on the subject. She's impossible to reason with, regarding it.
 
FlatlineAskari said:
We'd probably have more luck asking Mami to come up with something and picking it up over lunch than starting from scratch. Still have to deal with the root cause before it kills her, though.
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I'm all for asking Mami for some advice on enchantment but we have some idea's to jumpstart our enchantment.

We've pissed Homura off before, we'll do it again, and we'll have worse reasons to do it than this. Fuck her.
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No. I have no intention of alienating Homura over this or anything. We find another way. Not destroy relationships to help a former enemy.
 
I don't have time to think about this right now, but I want to leave a vote that won't fold instantly.

[X] Please. I don't want to abandon somebody who needs me.
[X] Right now, Oriko's wearing magical ring I made. If it is a trap, I'm not a their mercy; they're at mine.
-[X] I could try to block their magic powers outright. Make them defenseless. Tie a metaphorical ball and chain to their feet.
[X] If there's no reasoning with Homura, apologize. She's right that Oriko is dangerous. We'll take a couple hours to try and solve this right now, then leave for lunch.
-[X] Try and make that ring permanent.
--[X] Grief is absolutely yours, but at the same time, it can be owned by somebody else. Remember that wrong feeling. Make it happen.
---[X] Change the Ring into one that's specifically made to block Oriko's pain, to help Oriko and none else. Give the Ring, and the Grief that makes it, to Kirika, who's wish was to help Oriko.
--[X] If that doesn't work, try to infuse an Grief object with magic, to sustain it. Move it out of range to see if it worked.
---[X] Tell Kirika to do this, instead. Tell her it's the way to keep Oriko from the pain.
 
Gadjo said:
I have problems losing one ally to gain them when they seem to understand.

And the difference is they seem like they'd be willing to drop it, since they don't remember being killed. Homura remembers them killing Madoka. I mean, are you really suggesting we just ignore Homura's grievance and take them out of the house? She'll find out and it'll be a massive shitstorm and we'll all feel really dumb for doing something that was so obviously going to blow up in our face.

And so far as arguing it at her again, we don't have anything new to bring to the argument, hence, the exact same thing will happen and we'll piss off Homura again. We need to find a different way, or come up with new things to argue. "But Oriko is a person and I don't want her to suffer/be trapped let's let her help us" is something we've already said to Homura and she regards that option as somewhere in the same category as dumpster diving in the bio-hazard bin outside the hospital. We need a different argument.
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Our argument back then was about just generally trusting Oriko. This argument here is about helping her with some seriously crippling pain.

She obviously isn't faking. Her soul gem actually shows something is wrong. And when we're out we'll be watching her like a hawk. We'v been getting increasingly stronger while they've been stuck in the house so we could most likely take them even in a fight. And even if they were planning on escape or an ambush, then they easily do that when we're in the house already.

Look, if she still insists even after we say our piece, then that's that. Doing it regardless of what Homura says is just idiotic. But if we're not even willing to try out of fear of angering Homura further, then that says something about Sabrina.
 
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Sabrina: "Homura, please, I need-"

Homura: "You need to stay away from Oriko. She's dangerous."

Sabrina: "I need to help her. She's in pain-"

Homura: "But that pain destroys. Kills, like she killed M-"

Sabrina: "She did not-"

Homura: "She did!"

Sabrina: "That's not this Orik-"

Homura: "It's Oriko."

Sabrina: "So?"

Homura: "They're all the same."

Sabrina: "They are not."

Homura: "They are."

Sabrina: "Things change, we change-"

Homura: "Oriko doesn't-"

Sabrina: "Oriko changes, she deserves-"

Homura: "Nothing."

Mami: "I... I'm not sure what's going on, but Homura, maybe we can-"

Sabrina: "Mami you stay out of this."

Mami: "Eep."

Homura: "If she's in pain, let her."

Sabrina: "I can't."

Homura: "It's her problem."

Sabrina: "It's my problem."

Homura: "Why?"

Sabrina: "Because... I'm here to help. To fix... everything."

Homura: "..."

Sabrina: "Homura?"

Homura: "I... Understand."

Sabrina: "You do?"

Homura: "Yes. Absolutely."

Sabrina: "Thank you! Thanky you so much, Homura."

Homura: "Hm. I understand completely..."

[HOMUCIFER MODE ACTIVATED]
 
Muramasa said:
Remember the previous conversation. Don't just defend Oriko. Show Homura we're taking precautions.
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Indeed. I propose:

[] "Okay, but hear me out; if you don't change your mind afterwards, I'll follow your decision."
[] Firstly, I know she isn't faking. I have hard evidence she can't fake, and she doesn't have the skill to inflict this on herself. My scans of her soul gem also show that something is seriously wrong with her magic, and she doesn't have the skill to deliberately create the effect, assuming that would even be possible.
[] I'd be taking precautions:
-[] I'll keep both Oriko's and Kirika's soul gems in your pocket at all times.
-[] The moment your ability to subdue them is compromised, the ring that blocks Oriko's pain and allows her to even function would disappear. Furthermore, we already tried the technique for disconnecting Oriko from her body's sense of pain--it didn't work.
-[] I'll keep both in front of me and in sight at all times.
-[] I already know what both of their combat capabilities are, and I'd keep enough Grief to fight with at the ready.
[] Oriko is in no condition to actively use her precognition anyway.
[] If I left them here, it would still leave the problem of Oriko's extreme pain, which is bad enough to make her body look like it's suffering lethal radiation poisoning. She honestly looked like she was dying.
[] Once school gets out, Mami could accompany us. Would that alleviate your concerns somewhat?
 
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It's too bad that we're terrified of doing any more barrier experiments. Thinking With Portals would have been a great workaround for our 100 meter range.

That would be making two entrances to the barrier be different distances from each other inside the barrier than they are outside the barrier, basically using the barrier as a wormhole to reduce the distance between two points.
 
Onmur said:
I don't have time to think about this right now, but I want to leave a vote that won't fold instantly.

[X] Please. I don't want to abandon somebody who needs me.
[X] Right now, Oriko's wearing magical ring I made. If it is a trap, I'm not a their mercy; they're at mine.
-[X] I could try to block their magic powers outright. Make them defenseless. Tie a metaphorical ball and chain to their feet.
[X] If there's no reasoning with Homura, apologize. She's right that Oriko is dangerous. We'll take a couple hours to try and solve this right now, then leave for lunch.
-[X] Try and make that ring permanent.
--[X] Grief is absolutely yours, but at the same time, it can be owned by somebody else. Remember that wrong feeling. Make it happen.
---[X] Change the Ring into one that's specifically made to block Oriko's pain, to help Oriko and none else. Give the Ring, and the Grief that makes it, to Kirika, who's wish was to help Oriko.
--[X] If that doesn't work, try to infuse an Grief object with magic, to sustain it. Move it out of range to see if it worked.
---[X] Tell Kirika to do this, instead. Tell her it's the way to keep Oriko from the pain.
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This is not going to work. You're not adequately explaining your assurances that Oriko is not a threat, nor are you making arguments that Homura can trust. The whole "I could try" reeks of wishful thinking. And a metaphorical anything is no reassurance to Homura whatsoever.

Try and make the ring permanent? Again, wishful thinking and unreliable. It's never worked before, and we've tried.
 
Quick question on Walpurgisnacht.
Since it is strong enough to not need a barrier does it just randomly roam the world as a super hurricane?

Can we gank it with Homura in timestop before it gets to Mitakihara and save the city from getting wrecked?
 
The problem is that if we keep Oriko and Kirika with us, we're surrendering the lunch-time talk with Madoka and Sayaka or annihilating all the trust and goodwill we've built up with Homura (which might result in a fight breaking out in the worst possible place).

Firn has our metaphorical gem in a vise, here. Probably as a punishment for how reactive-instead-of-proactive we've been.
 
query said:
Quick question on Walpurgisnacht.
Since it is strong enough to not need a barrier does it just randomly roam the world as a super hurricane?

Can we gank it with Homura in timestop before it gets to Mitakihara and save the city from getting wrecked?
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We don't know. We'll try, but we can't know ahead of time.

Godwinson said:
The problem is that if we keep Oriko and Kirika with us, we're surrendering the lunch-time talk with Madoka and Sayaka or annihilating all the trust and goodwill we've built up with Homura (which might result in a fight breaking out in the worst possible place).

Firn has our metaphorical gem in a vise, here. Probably as a punishment for how reactive-instead-of-proactive we've been.
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Er, did you read my proposed vote? Because it avoids all of those problems and gives us a decent shot of getting our way.

EDIT: To clarify--even if we had to take Oriko and Kirika back to their home for lunch, it's still vastly preferable to never taking them with us at all. But that's getting ahead of ourselves; let's worry about the immediate issues first.
 
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SaltyWaffles said:
Er, did you read my proposed vote? Because it avoids all of those problems and gives us a decent shot of getting our way.
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Looking at your vote... I have one addition to make -- that we'll keep their gems fully encased in grief, so that if they give one whiff of looking to attack the others, we can crush them with a thought. Tell Oriko and Kirika about it, that we want to help them, but we have to address the concerns of our friends... and that if someone attacks them out of the blue, it means we're protecting their soul-gems.

EDIT: Perhaps keeping Oriko and Kirika some distance away might help? If we keep their gems at, say, 90 meters from us, and have them sit 90 meters from their gems? Try to create the pain-relieving function on the gem instead of Oriko, and we get 180 meters between us and them, grief around their gems, and knowledge of their exact location.

Make it clear to Homura that we're not just trusting them blindly, and we won't bring them near our utterly helpless mundane friends. (i.e. Madoka)
 
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Gadjo said:
I have problems losing one ally to gain them when they seem to understand.
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Muramasa said:
No. I have no intention of alienating Homura over this or anything. We find another way. Not destroy relationships to help a former enemy.
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I think it's overwhelmingly unlikely that we could lose Homura doing this. She was no more than irritated when we took them out shopping, and at the end of the day, she needs us.
In my view, the tradeoff isn't 'lose Homura' against 'risk hurting O&K'; it's 'Homura's crankier than usual for a couple of days' against 'prove yourself incapable of going the length for good subordinates'.
 
Having them with us does present a problem someone brought up: we can't very well lunch with Madoka with Oriko around. That would just be foolish to even imply was a thing.
landcollector said:
*sigh*
And again, she's murdered them repeatedly in retaliation. Whose karmic outlook is darker, hmm?
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Point is we like Homura, and she did it because Oriko was able to take her in a straight fight and she didn't want to lose Madoka again because of that. I don't care about karma and such. Homura is messed up, sure, but that doesn't mean we can just start going full against her. We're in this to save her too, you know.
FlatlineAskari said:
Under those circumstances, anyone in their right mind would've done the same.
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You mean under the circumstances Oriko was in? Let's be honest here, she made no attempt to try to find this person and make sure they didn't destroy everything, and had a bunch of local magical girls murdered in her plot. She was being a little crazy, but that's PMMM for you.
 
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