I'm not sure what's the answer, or what is the problem itself even, but there is a problem in there. People should mind what they say or not say in a forum, but inside this thread, that can be exacerbated to an hilariously harsh extent. People are literally afraid to post their thoughts.
A lot of this is the memetic hazard issue: what we discuss in the thread literally works its way into Sabrina's thoughts. The most egregious example I can remember from recent weeks was the suggestion that we "disable" magical girls by stuffing Grief into their Soul Gems. Now, for anyone who is more familiar with PMMM-style magic it's fairly clear why that's a bad idea, and it would take about one paragraph to explain to the person who proposed it why it wouldn't work, but instead of a calm explanation people freaked the hell out because they were afraid the idea would "pollute" Sabrina's thoughts.

Unfortunately there really isn't a way to solve this particular issue other than @Firnagzen making a commitment that such posts wouldn't do what the majority were so concerned it would do, whether the person was misguided and meant well or was just being a troll, and I'm not sure he wants to do that because the whole charm point of this Quest is that random voters, aggregated over time, are what make up Sabrina's thought processes. Taking that part out will inevitably cause the Quest itself to spiral into Sabrina: The PMMM Mary Sue Adventure, which would be more boring for everyone.

Ultimately I think this is a problem that we're just going to have to live with. There are, however, changes that we can make that will cut down on the other arguments, I think:
  • Voting moratoriums for say 4-6 hours after a new story post. Numerous benefits have been brought up before, so I won't repeat them.
  • At some point, votes need to close. This has also been mentioned before in this discussion, and it bears repeating: when the voting is 24/7/365, then the arguments never have time to settle down, and everyone divides into permanent factionalism, complete with demonizing the opposition and treating them as less than human.
  • Maybe @Firnagzen should provide a warning if something we say is going to be misinterpreted in a way we in the thread obviously never intended? Maybe some sort of "Sabrina Sanity" roll to prevent such votes from derailing the story? I'm not sure what mechanism to use, but currently one of the big reasons that we players are so tempted to vote in huge, monolithic blocks of overly-precise text is that we're anxious about misinterpretations that have happened before happening again.
 
Okay, now that it's no longer 5 AM and I've had at least three or four hours of sleep:













I do not exaggerate, I do not strawman. Every single high-quality quest in the entire questing community is a continuous war between the two groups that I described earlier. The presence of a good core voting population is almost synonymous with a few factors:
  • Universal write-ins.
  • Heavy social.
  • Defaults nonexistent, incomplete, or obviously inferior.
  • Player decisionmaking often surprises the QM, things like "I didn't see that solution, whoops".
  • Name-voting not unusual.
  • Significant core voting membership in common between quests.
  • Lighter, fluffier, and more idealistic tones in general.
The non-core demographic varies by quest, but its distinguishing feature is that its analysis is off-genre in a grittier, darker direction. This demographic invariably treats every quest as if it's canon worm or canon PMMM. In quests where that's the tone, no problem. In quests that have feel like they have the possibility of a good ending - necessarily subversions of settings like Worm and PMMM, often intentional subversions - this demographic fails to notice the genre shift and continues to treat the story like canon. This typically ends badly - non-player characters become coworkers or assets instead of friends and those friends react badly. Occasionally they go even further, into outright "spare the rod and spoil the child" type thinking that is never appropriate outside outright grimderp settings like 40k.

I think that this misalignment is the core problem, and it suggests a solution: The QM makes the tone of the quest clearer and polices voting and debating trends that do not fit. This worked excellently in Ignition, with Alivaril communicating by vetoing votes that Jade couldn't follow. Votes like "grit those teeth and power through" were struck down because the PC wasn't a shounen character and couldn't grit her teeth and power through her crippling depression-anxiety. In this case it'd probably have to be more gentle, since things like "hug Madoka later" are harder to identify as being wrong-genre.

We've already seen this executed in this quest, in fact, with some success:

The character you are playing is a straight up insert into the PMMM world. You had no history until about... well, a little while ago.

A lot depends on what this particular remark of Firns means, and whether or not it still stands. Just how unconstrained by the conventions of the world are we relative to everyone else?

You bring up bad things not happening for no good reason? I'm curious what you'd define as a good one.(Edit: To clarify, I'm speaking to Vebyast here) Is lack of preparation against obvious threats not a good reason?

Edit: Now that I've settled a bit, I can see your point Vebyast. Genre clarity would resolve it. As far as I'm concerned, there's been a damocles over our head this entire quest. The Law of Cycles impeded Kyubey's efforts at energy collection. He acted directly. How much of a threat to his yields do we need to be before we need to worry about that? At what point does Magical Girl show suddenly turn into Alistair Reynolds's Revelation Space?
 
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A lot depends on what this particular remark of Firns means, and whether or not it still stands. Just how unconstrained by the conventions of the world are we relative to everyone else?

You bring up bad things not happening for no good reason? I'm curious what you'd define as a good one. Is lack of preparation against obvious threats not a good reason?
It depends on how you define "obvious threat". In canon PMMM, other groups of meguca are "obvious threats" and trying to team up with others leads to getting backstabbed. In PMAS, teaming up with other meguca and trusting them is not just safe but outright encouraged, and we've been directly rewarded for it in the past. Which is the entire problem: some people's idea of an obvious threat is entirely misaligned with what the author thinks is an "obvious threat", and preparations are not free either logistically or socially.

Worm is an excellent example of bad things happening for no reason: Every single situation goes as badly as possible and sometimes worse. Armsmaster is having a bad day right when it's important. One of Taylor's bullies is the single Ward that attends the non-Wards school for ~reasons~. Taylor runs into Lung and the Undersiders on her first night out instead of running into the Wards or the heroes. Taylor's costume is unnecessarily edgy. Etcetera. Worm is a continuous string of "bad things happening for no good reason". In canon Worm, stepping foot outside is an "obvious threat" and you need to be prepared at any time for everything to go wrong.

PMAS is much more optimistic. Things tend to go reasonably well. When we go to talk to someone, they're not mysteriously having a bad day. When we're having a fight and one of our allies is injured, they're easily healed back and don't have to abandon their family and drop out of school because it'll take them three weeks to heal half their face back. When we metabomb Mami, she catches herself on the way out and asks why, instead of giving in to spite and burning bridges. We don't have to worry about Mami dying and can just simply enjoy the waff. The world is not just not against us, and in many ways it's actively helping.
A lot depends on what this particular remark of Firns means, and whether or not it still stands. Just how unconstrained by the conventions of the world are we relative to everyone else?
We're a fully classical Magical Girl: Sailor Moon, CardCaptor Sakura, etc. We have the powerset and the divine backing to be idealistic and treat everybody like they're a good person deep down and be right. We're not unconstrained, we still have to play to our narrative, but our conventions are completely different than the conventions that the rest of the setting operates under. If we back off on the idealism, if we stop trying to fix everything the way Madoka Wished for, we start having trouble because that's what happens when a classical magical girl starts backing down.
 
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So this is spanning a couple pages, but I wanted to talk about it when I ran across the first one and didn't want to let all that effort go to waste after the next several pages. Boy, this thread can move fast.

Primarily? It's fun. Both as an author and, I hope, as a Quest participant.

Speaking as a person who reads the threadmarks and occasionally peeks into the discussion, the "anything you post here, at all, will affect the player character" rule is one of the things that has specifically kept me away from posting in this thread more than once every other month or so. I doubt I'm the only one, and from what I've been reading since the last author alert it seems like most of the people who are dedicated to the thread have been using loopholes to escape the consequences of this rule for literal years.

So, really, all this rule seems to amount to is a gate that discourages new/non-dedicated players from posting, unless they're from this (hypothetical?) "Demographic B" people have been mentioning and they don't care if they're a bad influence on Sabrina's behavior (or don't believe their influence could possibly be negative, it comes out to the same thing).

  • It has been put to me that there is a certain leeriness of bad/intrusive thoughts messing with Sabrina's head. That's fair. To be clear, I've never entirely just slathered the thread liberally into Sabrina's mind - I always followed general trends. But let me make it clear, for future reference: I do distinguish between significant engagement with a concept (and disgust thereof), and disaffected discussion. Only the former makes it in.

That helps a bit, I suppose. Still not likely to contribute that much because of the (probably unsolvable) megavote problem, but I might pop in to make comments a bit more often.

When I see someone saying: "Thank you for having this discussion here instead of in the thread because this way this shit doesn't make it into Sabrina's head." Isn't that absurd? Are people scared of discussing PMAS inside PMAS, because then it may affect PMAS? How many people simply have not voiced their thoughts about the quest at some point or another because they're afraid they'll be punished for it?

raises hand
 
Alright.

This isn't an update. This is me, as the author and director of this ride, making a request, and throwing a topic open for discussion.

Don't worry, I'm not abandoning PMAS.

So this is why I'm bringing this up: I'm tired.

I'm tired of the shitflinging and the sniping and the passive aggressive grudges. The Discord divide thing is a recent thing, but I'm not happy with the derision thrown from both sides, either. The sheer toxicity scares off new people, and people have been driven away. This isn't tenable in the long run, or even really in the short run. Something has to change.

The Discord is easy. The server is being shut down. It's a lovely community, but it's bad for the health of the Quest. It does edge out newcomers and people who can't spare the time.

The thread, and the nature of this Quest, results in people racing to push their agenda over others. Everyone has a laundry list of things they want to do, and if I'm honest, I encourage that. Sabrina needs to manage her time, because with great power comes great responsibility and such. But it creates animosity, because it drives the stake of each vote higher, and it generates division between blocs of broadly aligned people. That division carries over even to the most inconsequential and fluffiest of votes.

I'm going to try and tighten up the pacing. I know I've said it before, but I'm making it a firm declaration for myself this time. It's necessary.

I've put heart and soul and three years of my life into PMAS, and I want to see this through to the end. I want to see Sabrina through to the end of her story, with the rest of the cast, and I hope you do too. The next update's still coming - but I want this talked out first.

So now I put it to you, my readers: Is there anything more I can do? Is there anything you can do? Should I limit vote options for write-ins, should I start offering vote options again?
I think there are a few things that can be done to alleviate (most of) these problems.

1) Have a section in the opening post detailing Sabrina's schedule, commitments, goals (and their deadlines, if applicable), current concerns (such as the risk of Madoka contracting, and the current consensus on how pressing it is--perhaps with QM hints in this regard, for the sake of preventing player paranoia from spiraling out of control), and ideas for solutions (whether or not they're good ideas would be left explicitly ambiguous, but so long as the ideas were supported by at least one or two other posters, it would qualify for the list). This would serve as a reference for players to use whenever needed, as well as a convenient way for players who are aware of everything in it to refer players who aren't to.

2) Divide up the voting period into two distinct sections. The first: players discuss what to do, create votes/plans and refine them, as well as give some kind of reasoning for the choices in said plans (in the same post). The second: Firn makes another post in the thread which includes each of the plans proposed (and, if reasonable, the reasoning behind his/her plan), and then opens up the actual voting. For the ease of access for those not coming into the voting period immediately, the latest "voting selection" post by Firn would be threadmarked, and that threadmark would be deleted when the vote is closed (or when the next chapter is posted). For clarity's sake, an explanation of this process and its rules should be posted in the informational posts at the beginning of the thread, and players who break these rules or ask about how it works would simply be directed to this part with a link.

3) What would be very helpful is including some context/info for the players at the end of each story post, explaining what the current vote would actually cover. This way, players wouldn't have to worry that anything not included in the vote would be a lost opportunity (like assuming that the current conversation with someone will end in the next story post). This would prevent some of the tendency for people to throw in a lot of things to a given plan (or ask/demand that something be included). If players express the desire to simply "skip ahead" or something (let's say a vote is explained to cover activities from 10AM-11AM, but voters feel like they should be able to just vote for the activities from 10AM-5PM), then it could be solved by simply having a particularly short new chapter covering the previously-designated events (in the previous example, the events from 10AM-11AM), and the designated time period to be covered in the next vote would cover the time period desired by the voters (11AM-5PM).

4) This suggestion is hampered more by technical difficulties than anything, making me hesitant to suggest it. But First Past The Post voting systems are terrible and very much encourage a lot of the negative practices you express frustration with. FPTP voting strongly encourages bandwagoning and building momentum as early and quickly as possible. It also strongly encourages forming into voting blocs (as few blocs as possible, at that), as well as hostile behavior towards other voting blocs in attempts to convince independent and/or undecided voters to side with them. Frankly, FPTP is probably the worst voting system there is in all criteria but simplicity. Ranked voting is just one example of a much better voting system. As I said before, though, this suggestion is the one most hampered by technical difficulties. I don't know if the vote-tallying program can handle anything but FPTP functionality. There may be a way to utilize it to facilitate ranked voting, however: by having each of the proposed voting plans have a name, and having voters cast votes based on just those names, and voting for their top two plans in order of preference, you could then effectively do a ranked voting system. For example:

[X] Plan Hug The 'Doka
[X] Plan Blue
Number of voters: 8

[X] Plan Green
[X] Plan Blue
Number of voters: 5

[X] Plan Pink
[X] Plan Green
Number of voters: 9

You'd tally the number of votes in the top-preference-spot for each plan; if none win a majority of the votes, then you select the plan with the fewest number of top-ranked votes and...well, to quote Wikipedia:
If no candidate is the first choice of more than half of the voters, then all votes cast for the candidate with the lowest number of first choices are redistributed to the remaining candidates based on who is ranked next on each ballot.[7] If this does not result in any candidate receiving a majority, further rounds of redistribution occur.[7] Or, in other words, "[...] voters would rank their first, second and subsequent choices on the ballot. The candidate with the fewest votes would be dropped and his or her supporters' second choices would be counted and so on until one candidate emerged with more than 50 per cent."[8]

Is that a lot of work? Yes. Probably too much work. But it would definitely have a major impact, curbing the bandwagoning tendencies and the need to build voting blocs that compete with each other. Whether or not that's worth the effort expended is up to you.

----

Oh yeah, and I forgot: the whole "thread discussion affects Sabrina's thoughts/feelings/behavior" aspect--it might be best to get rid of the negative impact of that mechanic, to prevent situations in which some players go after other players for simply expressing their views or posting negative reactions (or just venting), due to the effects of said posting on Sabrina herself.

It's difficult to tell where to draw the line, here; a highly conflicted discussion and voting period being reflected by Sabrina feeling conflicted about her choices/actions might be good for characterization. An example of where this was a good thing was during the long timestop during the night we hunted Oriko and Kirika--being in timestop for a prolonged period of time would definitely have serious psychological effects/concerns on anyone, and it makes complete sense for both Sabrina and the players to feel fatigue in prolonged timestop. As a result, the players feel that prolonged timestop should be avoided unless it is truly necessary, and Sabrina feels the same way. However, I think heated discussion/debate between players over things that are not about the immediate vote should not be included in the bits reflected in Sabrina's mental state--so, heated debates about the merits of SCIENCE shouldn't be reflected in Sabrina unless the immediate vote is actually about whether or not to conduct SCIENCE.
 
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Speaking, again, purely for myself as somebody who tends to come down on the side of "If the universe still dies in however many billion years, we are not done here", this is how it looks from my perspective.

Firnagzen can tell whatever story he wants. He's the author, it's his prerogative.

But we the players and debaters don't necessarily know what story Firnagzen wants to tell! Madoka is a genre twist, where the traditional approaches don't necessarily work, and where fluffy happy idealistic characters often meet grisly ends. With that in mind, I tend to follow this payoff matrix:


Firnagzen wants to:
We behave like we're in a:
Tell a dark story Tell a fluffy story
Dark story We have a shot at winning. We drive some friends away with our broodiness and inappropriate behavior.
Fluffy story EVERYTHING DIES. Everything is nice.
Do you see the problem here? Given that we are not sure what sort of story we are in, given that we are not sure how many chances the universe will give us, whether fate is on our side, neutral, or malicious, if we assume that we might be in a dark story, then behaving in a fluffy fashion is a terrible mistake, on the Sayaka tier of wrong-genre-savvy. I don't see a way for this to be addressed unless Firnagzen tells us outright that those concerns are misplaced.

[edit] Like, if Firnagzen explicitly told us: "What happens to the system after Walpurgisnacht is not your concern," I believe that would massively shift the decisionmaking of even the dark-story faction. They're not acting this way because they want to, but because they believe we cannot afford to take the risk.
 
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It depends on how you define "obvious threat". In canon PMMM, other groups of meguca are "obvious threats" and trying to team up with others leads to getting backstabbed. In PMAS, teaming up with other meguca and trusting them is not just safe but outright encouraged, and we've been directly rewarded for it in the past. Which is the entire problem: some people's idea of an obvious threat is entirely misaligned with what the author thinks is an "obvious threat", and preparations are not free either logistically or socially.

Worm is an excellent example of bad things happening for no reason: Every single situation goes as badly as possible and sometimes worse. Armsmaster is having a bad day right when it's important. One of Taylor's bullies is the single Ward that attends the non-Wards school for ~reasons~. Taylor runs into Lung and the Undersiders on her first night out instead of running into the Wards or the heroes. Taylor's costume is unnecessarily edgy. Etcetera. Worm is a continuous string of "bad things happening for no good reason". In canon Worm, stepping foot outside is an "obvious threat" and you need to be prepared at any time for everything to go wrong.

PMAS is much more optimistic. Things tend to go reasonably well. When we go to talk to someone, they're not mysteriously having a bad day. When we're having a fight and one of our allies is injured, they're easily healed back and don't have to abandon their family and drop out of school because it'll take them three weeks to heal half their face back. When we metabomb Mami, she catches herself on the way out and asks why, instead of giving in to spite and burning bridges. We don't have to worry about Mami dying and can just simply enjoy the waff. The world is not just not against us, and in many ways it's actively helping.

We're a fully classical Magical Girl: Sailor Moon, CardCaptor Sakura, etc. We have the powerset and the divine backing to be idealistic and treat everybody like they're a good person deep down and be right. We're not unconstrained, we still have to play to our narrative, but our conventions are completely different than the conventions that the rest of the setting operates under. If we back off on the idealism, if we stop trying to fix everything the way Madoka Wished for, we start having trouble because that's what happens when a classical magical girl starts backing down.

In the canon PMMM world, idealism is something you need to get away with. We have the power to get away with it, to treat everybody like they're a good person, and enable others to get away with it. And that's just it. If what we do can't persist in our absence indefinitely, the system is not fixed. We just covered it up for a while. The main counterevidence for us talking to people always working is Sasa Yuuki and Aiko.

For the sake of my curiosity, what's your basis for us being a fully classical Magical Girl?
 
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For the sake of my curiosity, what's your basis for us being a fully classical Magical Girl?

Our grief-binding 100% enables it since we don't need to worry about magic limitations, added with Sabrina's established goals and personality, and also The God of Classical Magical Girls apparently was watching us when we were 'born' in the first post.
 
But we the players and debaters don't necessarily know what story Firnagzen wants to tell! Madoka is a genre twist, where the traditional approaches don't necessarily work, and where fluffy happy idealistic characters often meet grisly ends. With that in mind, I tend to follow this payoff matrix:
Except we know that Firnagzen is trying to tell a lighter, happier story. This is not up for debate.
  • Adfligo Systema. Our entire purpose is to break the system. PMAS is obviously intended to be a reconstruction of the deconstruction, the Gurren Lagann to PMMM's Evangelion.
  • Heroes should act, from the opening post. We're intended to be going out and proactively fixing things.
  • "Bad things don't happen for no reason."
  • "You can tell your own story with the same pieces, right?", in the context of Madoka not liking how grim 40k was. The implication is obviously that Firnagzen is doing the same thing, using the pieces of PMMM to tell a story that he prefers, one that's less sad.
  • Everything we do, from science to social, we're repeatedly rewarded for inclusion, teamwork, and idealism.
  • I get insightfuls from Firn on posts where I note how our powers appear to be designed to reward teamwork and cooperation.
  • Our powerset is a straightforward solution to the malthusian catastrophe that makes PMMM such a shithole in many cases.
  • Madoka literally wished to make the world better. Ultimately speaking, the root cause of PMMM's horrible grimness is that it's a philosophical statement. that philosophical statement is that "Hope is balanced by despair". Everything in PMMM revolves around that concept. In PMAS, that's been explicitly broken by a Madokami-tier Wish, with us as its instrument. The entire point of the quest is to have hope without despair.
  • Whatever nasty thing is talking to us in the invisitext, being WAFFy with our friend hampers its efforts.
  • Kirika's change to having antimagic in PMAS. The universe is literally telling Oriko to not die. That's as far from dark as you can possibly get.
Also, your payoff matrix is wrong. The top-right corner, where we act like it's dark when it's really fluffy, doesn't end in making some of our friends unhappy. It ends with our friends witching out and the quest bad-ending.
 
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Adfligo Systema. Our entire purpose is to break the system.
Ehhh. Breaking Systems is not guaranteed to always lead to better outcomes you know, even if I do understand that is what is likely intended here.

The universe is literally telling Oriko to not die. That's as far from dark as you can possibly get.
And yet, Oriko is telling to the universe "Fuck off and let me die plz, thx." in response, mostly.
 
Perhaps, that's why I made a specific choice to use the term "mostly". And also keep in mind it took multiple OOC years to achieve even that small change.
We kept trying to reason with her and appeal to her emotion and got nowhere. Then we realized that the universe had handed us the solution on a silver platter and we just hadn't noticed it. When we pointed it out, Oriko went from being entirely entrenched to coming around in the space of two sentences. That's about as clear a message as you can get about the tone of the setting. Like I said, the universe itself is helping us out.
 
In the canon PMMM world, idealism is something you need to get away with. We have the power to get away with it, to treat everybody like they're a good person, and enable others to get away with it. And that's just it. If what we do can't persist in our absence indefinitely, the system is not fixed. We just covered it up for a while. The main counterevidence for us talking to people always working is Sasa Yuuki and Aiko.

Thats the thing.

So to use an example. Prisoner's Dilemma. Short version:

Person A and B are in jail being drawn up on charges

- If A and B rat each other out they both get two years
- If A and B are both silent they both get one year.
- If A or B rat the other out while the opposite number is silent then the rat goes free and the silent takes a full five years.

Normal thought process is this means you have to go with rating out the other guy since that means your either going to go free or get the only two years. If you risk staying silent the other guy will saddle you with five years in jail.

A variant of this experiment is to do it in iterations, so the previous session can influence the current session. Naturally this leads to always ratting the other guy out to be safe. This is called Tit-For-Tat. IE you rat me out, ok next session I rat YOU out.

A variation of this plan, done to break the cycle to get the BEST result (one year in jail for all parties) is called Tit-For-Tat with forgiveness. Which is to say you stop replying in kind and hold your tongue for several sessions to signal the other-side your willing to compromise. Idealism is what ends up letting you get the best result when they also decide to stay silent after you lost out several times.

Arguing that one must plan by worst case contingencies means you settle for second best. When the name of the entire quest is about breaking the cycle really. In the end grimderp would be like trying to forgive the other guy and he just lets you take the full blame every time. Basically he knows your going to be silent and TAKES advantage of it to go scott free.

The argument here is that PMAS is NOT that dark and point in fact that the other girls will tentatively allow Sabrina to be idealistic when she shows she has a plan.

So take a step back from PMMM canon and offer some trust.

If the world stabs us in the back, fine so be. Stab it right back. The offer it a second try.
 
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I'll note that Firn explicitly said that this was going to be a difficult quest to win in the very first post. That seems to be contradictory to the position that the universe will continue to provide contrivances to let us always win as long as we play to magical girl classic tropes.
 
We kept trying to reason with her and appeal to her emotion and got nowhere. Then we realized that the universe had handed us the solution on a silver platter and we just hadn't noticed it. When we pointed it out, Oriko went from being entirely entrenched to coming around in the space of two sentences. That's about as clear a message as you can get about the tone of the setting. Like I said, the universe itself is helping us out.
I suppose, then, part of my issue is that the universe making sure everything goes well and happy-like just...I don't know, seems fake to me, not really interesting/engaging. =\ I know I am not expressing this well.
 
I don't think anyone's suggesting that the universe is bending over ass backwards to give us extra chances or go happy, or whatever; more, rather, if we're INTELLIGENT, we should be able to get a perfect good ending without morally compromising our ideals, and that we can generally recover from most things. Short of Sayaka witching out of dying, for example, we can probably always salvage our relationship with her as long as we don't do something unforgivable in her eyes.

Being a Magical Girl Classic doesn't mean being stupid, playing on easy mode, or not having to work very, very hard. But it DOES mean we shouldn't have to compromise our ideals and priorities. It means it's not wrong to hope for the best, and have faith that we can do everything we set out to do.

Mahou Shoujo, as a thematic genre, is the statement that sincerity and good intentions are inherently valuable, and inherently have world-changing power as long as you have faith in them.
 
It doesn't help that we're also in two minds about how idealistic and Wish-happy Madoka is.

Honestly, we need to sit her down and suss that out directly. We should have done that this morning, actually, but we should still have time before the trip, I think, to talk to her briefly about making a wish. We need to determine precisely where her line is drawn right now at "I will sell my soul to coobie" so we can plan for how to push it back. And if we can make HER think about it, all the better. The first step to change is understanding.
 
Except we know that Firnagzen is trying to tell a lighter, happier story. This is not up for debate.
  • Adfligo Systema. Our entire purpose is to break the system. PMAS is obvious intended to be a reconstruction of the deconstruction, the Gurren Lagann to PMMM's Evangelion.
  • Heroes should act, from the opening post. We're intended to be going out and proactively fixing things.
  • Madoka literally wished to make the world better. Ultimately speaking, the root cause of PMMM's horrible grimness is that it's a philosophical statement. that philosophical statement is that "Hope is balanced by despair". Everything in PMMM revolves around that concept. In PMAS, that's been explicitly broken by a Madokami-tier Wish, with us as its instrument. The entire point of the quest is to have hope without despair.

If you're implying the system is already broken, I guess that's where our disagreement is. The system is not fixed until we've made idealism possible in it, without our direct intervention. A world of hope without despair is one we need to create. Something that will not happen without vision and planning. As Simon said to the Anti-Spiral, "My drill is the drill that creates the heavens". We have the means to create the hopeful world. It has not already happened.

The argument here is that PMAS is NOT that dark and point in fact that the other girls will tentatively allow Sabrina to be idealistic when she shows she has a plan.

In the end that's what I'm trying to do, why I try to push for more infrastructure and science, why I keep pushing for Viral grief research as a means of circumventing our range limit. So Sabrina can have a plan, so the girls will let her be idealistic. (Edit: That and my already expressed concern of a sudden genre shift to Revelation Space or something.)

Edit2: If we don't have to worry about that genre shift, then we have nothing to fear from a wikipedia edit war ensuing because we broke the masquerade and forced the incubators to pursue economides of scale. We don't have to fear them pulling a Rebellion on us, or attempting to sabotage our infrastructure for a planet wide witchout either.
 
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I think a large part of the disconnect here is Vebyast insisting on using the term."WAFF"

What this is is not WAFF

But neither is it a dark story

What we have is a tendency towards lightness and a QM who rewards working with people and building trust

Look, the problems we've been having recently come from some people acting like every vote is make-or-break. Hell, people were acting like if we didn't comfort Madoka right now then we were going to bad-end on the spot. I am only slightly exaggerating here

Holding off until after meeting isn't a case of people misidentifying the genre of the quest, it's a case of people recognizing that the stakes of this action aren't nearly high enough to justify this kind of panic

We have got to stop treating every single vote like the fate of the world depends on it

I...may have meandered from my point here

Which is that this quest is geared towards us being idealistic and trying to save everyone, but we still have to actually put in the work and think about the consequences of our actions
 
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If Madoka doesn't like 40k being grim and dark she should just play Tau Orks. :V

I'm not sufficiently confident in my writing skills to take a swing at it, but I've been wondering what it'd be like to run a PMMM quest in 40k.
On one hand, people are miserable and psykers are on the rise, so there'd be plenty of potential magi, but on the other hand Incubators are literally xenos.

Witches are basically non-denominational/euclidean daemons, and Kyuubey may or may not have brokered a deal with Tzeentch
 
Off topic, but the Imperium of Man does not bother me, when its just fluff in a wargame. Many historical armies were less principled and tolerant.

Since Sayaka plays, I am very curious what army she prefers. Did we ever get around to playing with her off camera, or did she lug that case around for nothing?

And the world may not end if we don't immediately reassure Madoka, but she looks like she needs a hug.
 
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