Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
Is it bad that I want to respond to this image with itself? 'Cause it's just right.>when the brain damage is just right
i spent waaaay longer on this than i should have
I c wut u did thar
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
- Start date
-
- Tags
- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
- Location
- Blocksberg
Alright.
This isn't an update. This is me, as the author and director of this ride, making a request, and throwing a topic open for discussion.
Don't worry, I'm not abandoning PMAS.
So this is why I'm bringing this up: I'm tired.
I'm tired of the shitflinging and the sniping and the passive aggressive grudges. The Discord divide thing is a recent thing, but I'm not happy with the derision thrown from both sides, either. The sheer toxicity scares off new people, and people have been driven away. This isn't tenable in the long run, or even really in the short run. Something has to change.
The Discord is easy. The server is being shut down. It's a lovely community, but it's bad for the health of the Quest. It does edge out newcomers and people who can't spare the time.
The thread, and the nature of this Quest, results in people racing to push their agenda over others. Everyone has a laundry list of things they want to do, and if I'm honest, I encourage that. Sabrina needs to manage her time, because with great power comes great responsibility and such. But it creates animosity, because it drives the stake of each vote higher, and it generates division between blocs of broadly aligned people. That division carries over even to the most inconsequential and fluffiest of votes.
I'm going to try and tighten up the pacing. I know I've said it before, but I'm making it a firm declaration for myself this time. It's necessary.
I've put heart and soul and three years of my life into PMAS, and I want to see this through to the end. I want to see Sabrina through to the end of her story, with the rest of the cast, and I hope you do too. The next update's still coming - but I want this talked out first.
So now I put it to you, my readers: Is there anything more I can do? Is there anything you can do? Should I limit vote options for write-ins, should I start offering vote options again?
This isn't an update. This is me, as the author and director of this ride, making a request, and throwing a topic open for discussion.
Don't worry, I'm not abandoning PMAS.
So this is why I'm bringing this up: I'm tired.
I'm tired of the shitflinging and the sniping and the passive aggressive grudges. The Discord divide thing is a recent thing, but I'm not happy with the derision thrown from both sides, either. The sheer toxicity scares off new people, and people have been driven away. This isn't tenable in the long run, or even really in the short run. Something has to change.
The Discord is easy. The server is being shut down. It's a lovely community, but it's bad for the health of the Quest. It does edge out newcomers and people who can't spare the time.
The thread, and the nature of this Quest, results in people racing to push their agenda over others. Everyone has a laundry list of things they want to do, and if I'm honest, I encourage that. Sabrina needs to manage her time, because with great power comes great responsibility and such. But it creates animosity, because it drives the stake of each vote higher, and it generates division between blocs of broadly aligned people. That division carries over even to the most inconsequential and fluffiest of votes.
I'm going to try and tighten up the pacing. I know I've said it before, but I'm making it a firm declaration for myself this time. It's necessary.
I've put heart and soul and three years of my life into PMAS, and I want to see this through to the end. I want to see Sabrina through to the end of her story, with the rest of the cast, and I hope you do too. The next update's still coming - but I want this talked out first.
So now I put it to you, my readers: Is there anything more I can do? Is there anything you can do? Should I limit vote options for write-ins, should I start offering vote options again?
Spectral Waltz
Scatterbrained Writer
- Location
- Walking the Endless Corridors
Mostly a lurker who only reads the story posts here, but... Options might help? Maybe cutting out some of the smaller votes?
Iunno, I like this story, and I'm sorry to hear you're feeling tired. I just want to say I hope it gets better.
Iunno, I like this story, and I'm sorry to hear you're feeling tired. I just want to say I hope it gets better.
If I could make only one suggestion, it'd be this: don't be afraid to make more decisions for the thread.
Sabrina does have her own character at this point, and she can make choices "in character" without having to consult the thread for the next move.
This in turn lets updates cover more time, tightening up pacing, which in turn actually takes time pressure off the thread despite decreasing the amount of fine-tuned control. Part of the reason I quit voting (aside from, yes, the toxicity and the pain of having to try and vote-herd bandwagons early) was that I knew that if I didn't get something done in this "science" timeslot, the next one wouldn't come by for another in-universe day, which might be out-of-universe months. By which time I'd've forgotten or be busy. A faster pace means that it's easier to make deals out-of-character, like "we'll do this now and do that tomorrow," without feeling like nobody's going to remember that deal in a month or three when "tomorrow" actually rolls around.
Sabrina does have her own character at this point, and she can make choices "in character" without having to consult the thread for the next move.
This in turn lets updates cover more time, tightening up pacing, which in turn actually takes time pressure off the thread despite decreasing the amount of fine-tuned control. Part of the reason I quit voting (aside from, yes, the toxicity and the pain of having to try and vote-herd bandwagons early) was that I knew that if I didn't get something done in this "science" timeslot, the next one wouldn't come by for another in-universe day, which might be out-of-universe months. By which time I'd've forgotten or be busy. A faster pace means that it's easier to make deals out-of-character, like "we'll do this now and do that tomorrow," without feeling like nobody's going to remember that deal in a month or three when "tomorrow" actually rolls around.
No it only edges out people who feel unreasonably entitled to know every detail of someone else's thought process for voting.
Why can't you just tell them to cut it out?
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
So, I'm fine with cutting the PMAS channel of the discord server and keeping the rest; it's one of my main social outlets right now and there's much more going on than just PMAS at this point.
Another thing that keeps me, and probably others, from posting and voting is...like, votes get WAAAAY too fucking long and WAAAAY too overly specific. People sometimes wage wars over total multicolored multiedited abomination laundry lists that differ by like one or two lines on the basis of phrasing or something and I can't follow a fucking word of it due to my actual brain disorder, so i throw my vote to someone I trust and tune out until update time.
And that's bullshit, and causes a caustic atmosphere. Votes should be short and general, for the most part.
Another thing that keeps me, and probably others, from posting and voting is...like, votes get WAAAAY too fucking long and WAAAAY too overly specific. People sometimes wage wars over total multicolored multiedited abomination laundry lists that differ by like one or two lines on the basis of phrasing or something and I can't follow a fucking word of it due to my actual brain disorder, so i throw my vote to someone I trust and tune out until update time.
And that's bullshit, and causes a caustic atmosphere. Votes should be short and general, for the most part.
mothematics
How wide is the concept of "you"?
- Location
- the bottom of a coffee cup
- Pronouns
- She/Her
The first thing everyone can do is remember this is a game of make-pretend about a brain-damaged teenager, so if you're getting severely worked up and unpleasant with regularity, you're probably doing something wrong.
e- Yeah, sorry. That's not helpful of me.
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Spectral Waltz
Scatterbrained Writer
- Location
- Walking the Endless Corridors
Woah... that seems just a little unfair. When arguments get deadlocked the best way to resolve them is to understand where people are coming from, thought process is a crucial part of that.
Yeah it's slow, but it's important to conflict resolution.
Incorrect. The opacity of the discussion makes people feel like they don't have any meaningful interaction with the creation of a vote.
LostDeviljho
Flame Dragon Princess
- Location
- The glorious Pacific Northwest
- Pronouns
- Any
Please do not. Shut down the PMAS text channel specifically if you need, but the discord server as a whole covers more than just PMAS nowadays. On top of that I have important things on that discord that aren't anywhere else, and the general chat serves an important role for my general social interaction when I just want to talk to people in real-ish time without the giant fuckstorms that are the votes and vote discussions and the reason I haven't bothered coming into the thread proper in literal months.
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
Would it be acceptable to just delete the #PMAS channel of the discord server and make it forbidden to have serious PMAS discussion on it? Because some of us organize our other quests on it or just, you know. Get to know each other on there.
I don't want to play this card but sometimes when I'm doing my dialysis or other hospital things for hours on end the discord server are the only people I can talk to.
mothematics
How wide is the concept of "you"?
- Location
- the bottom of a coffee cup
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Yeah, I quick edited because I realized I shouldn't... speak for Godwinson and Firn and that was kind of prickly.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
Tighter pacing will help with a great deal of the issues that have come up, by reducing the amount of micromanagement that occurs.
Perhaps other, new and exiting, issues will occur as a result, but that's the nature of running a quest, and it's something that can be dealt with as it happens.
In my personal opinion, the divide caused by Discord in discussion was a major issue. As someone who agrees with the more direct and "sciency" approach of Narrator and Eyes, while also being active on the Discord, I got to see a fantastic case study of bubbles and group polarization in action.
All discussion must happen somewhere where all members can see and discuss it, or this divide will only get worse.
Perhaps other, new and exiting, issues will occur as a result, but that's the nature of running a quest, and it's something that can be dealt with as it happens.
In my personal opinion, the divide caused by Discord in discussion was a major issue. As someone who agrees with the more direct and "sciency" approach of Narrator and Eyes, while also being active on the Discord, I got to see a fantastic case study of bubbles and group polarization in action.
All discussion must happen somewhere where all members can see and discuss it, or this divide will only get worse.
That's kind of what I mean by tightening up the pacing, yeah.
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
I should also throw out that, for me and a few others, we've kind of become reliant on the real-time nature of the Discord server to get summaries of what's going on in PMAS because for something like 11 pages it can just be unreadable block text essays of overly edited voting wars. Like my eyes glaze over at certain discussions with Kaizuki, or TheEyes, or I don't even know who else. The voting culture is so caustic that the discord was only ever a bandaid, and the divide, I feel, is mostly a symptom of how unpleasant talking in the thread can be. Atleast for me.
DB_Explorer
Purveyor of alternate realities.
- Location
- San Diego, California
- Pronouns
- He/Him
We have occasionally managed to make short votes which provides direction in terms of tone and intention rather then verbatim orders. Now that does not mean that votes *have* to be short but long laundry lists of statements and conditionals is hard to make and manage and also I think a cause of trouble since specific wordings are more liable to cause grievances then general positions on intent.
Perhaps we could, like other quests, have a delay on when voting starts? So you can't get a bandwagon early and allow people to hash out their various positions?
Perhaps we could, like other quests, have a delay on when voting starts? So you can't get a bandwagon early and allow people to hash out their various positions?
Lone Courier 6
Devilish Fool
- Location
- United States of Quests
Oh thank god tighter pacing...And yeah, I feel like it's...harder to include myself in on the votes ...Cause of yeah, what AuraTwilight is saying.
Yeah. I know exactly how that feels. And I'm going to become familiar with it again when the Discord goes away and those discussions go back to being PM conversations that I'm not part of.
Either people are allowed to talk about stuff in places other than this thread or not. And for that matter we need know exactly what Ugolino's status is. He was banned for being disruptive and angry, not (theoretically) because his ideas themselves aren't welcome, and you need to step up (and work out a deal with the rest of the staff if needed) and make a firm decision one way or the other about whether other people are allowed to act as a filter and relay his ideas to the thread. Either he's an unperson or he just needs a buffer, none of this both ways crap. Remember, someone complaining about people talking to Ugo was what started this most recent blow-up.
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OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
*Gardens of Enoch Flashbacks*
It seems like the most persistent argument in this quest is one of genre. Why not embrace it, maybe switch to a ranked choice voting system while you're at it?
Mix between Sabrina character points and Genre points for options closer to something like Alpha Protocol?
Stein's Gate points, Roman History Points, Worm points, Mage the Ascension points, Hard Sci-fi points, Transhuman Sci-fi points Urban Fantasy points, Empress Sabrina Points, Scientist Sabrina Points, Cloudcuckoolander Sabrina points, Idealist Sabrina points, things like that?
It seems like the most persistent argument in this quest is one of genre. Why not embrace it, maybe switch to a ranked choice voting system while you're at it?
Mix between Sabrina character points and Genre points for options closer to something like Alpha Protocol?
Stein's Gate points, Roman History Points, Worm points, Mage the Ascension points, Hard Sci-fi points, Transhuman Sci-fi points Urban Fantasy points, Empress Sabrina Points, Scientist Sabrina Points, Cloudcuckoolander Sabrina points, Idealist Sabrina points, things like that?
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- Location
- Your Native Universe
I never really went to the Discord server so I can't really comment on it. However...
This. Soooo much this.
This sounds like it would get complicated rather quickly though, doesn't it?
Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
I don't think that Discord was the problem. It was, at most, evidence of a problem. The only reason it took off was because a large portion of the long-time thread regulars had entirely abandoned the thread by that time and jumped at a chance to socialize and discuss the quest without having to deal with the thread and the other party. Several members of that other party had joined the Discord when it was created but were rapidly forced out after a number of horrible vitriolic debates. This started long before the Discord appeared.
- Location
- Borneo
Yeah, kill the PMAS channel.
We'll just discuss all the PMAS stuff here, like we maybe should, like it used to be.
And yeah, I agree taht maybe more vote options would be good, and heck, having Sabrina have more autonomy than just what voters say would be great.
Adds a lot more to the whole "Sabrina is more than the thread" thing, plus gives you more to work with, sell, actually less and easier to work with.
We'll just discuss all the PMAS stuff here, like we maybe should, like it used to be.
And yeah, I agree taht maybe more vote options would be good, and heck, having Sabrina have more autonomy than just what voters say would be great.
Adds a lot more to the whole "Sabrina is more than the thread" thing, plus gives you more to work with, sell, actually less and easier to work with.
- Location
- Blocksberg
I can see why you would do this. I'm cool with you killing the PMAS channel. But please, don't close the whole server. The PMAS channel can go, but the server in general is a reasonably nice place and it has more stuff on it than just this quest. There are a bunch of guys there that I like talking to that I wouldn't get a chance to talk with if the whole server was shut down.
About the voting problems... That's a tough one. The others here have a point, that this quest needs a lot less micromanaging. Sabrina is her own person, and will likely act a certain way when confronted with a problem. Because of this, we don't really need huge overly complicated votes that control Sabrina down to her exact fucking body language.
DB is also right, with the suggestion to have a limit on when voting can start. The quests that have a 12-24 hour voting lock tend to be more controlled and have fewer bandwagons, I think.