Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

Muramasa · Jul 30, 2015

i still say better safe than sorry right now we just cleansed her she doesn't need the seed. when we leave it is more appropriate time to give her the seed.

edit: we should also stress the fact that we can recycle a seed indefinitely. We already have proof that she gave it to Kyubey. I'd rather not waste our grief seeds too much.

Relax. We'll go over it. The seed will be fine in the meantime. I highly doubt Megane has any means to destroy it or would for that matter.

SynchronizedWritersBlock · Jul 30, 2015

Sereg said:
We do? It doesn't look harsh to me (though I have a tendency to be overly blunt). I want to be kind to her, but I also want our words to have gravitas. For her to treat what we're saying seriously. And to avoid having her believe that we think that she's weak or that we're pitying her.

Her choices are to have the meeting here or outside and on how much time to take to compose herself. They are important choices we need to give her to stop her from feeling threatened and helpless.

The point isn't to be coy. It's to be concise. She isn't going to listen to a long speech at this point. We need to get her to accept the meeting in the first place before trying to have it.

I'd like to. I'm not sure how without compromising elsewhere, but you're normally one of the better among us at this sort of thing, so I'm open to ideas.

I'm not considering us reacting violently. I'm considering Ono reacting violently, which is what scared people do. I've reacted with violence out of fear myself. It's a normal thing we should be prepared for.

I am sympathetic. But sympathy won't save her by itself.

It's too late for her not feeling weak. We showed up in a place where what she feels weak about is on display. That ship sailed the moment we made our presence known.

That is not a real choice because she has already made her preference clear. It's framing a demand to see her as a "choice". My point of view is that we should not offer choices that are not genuine, even if that means offering no choices at all.

Her entire body language suggests the only way we get a violent reaction is if we try going closer. It is literally her trying everything to avoid us. It is not indicating in the least she would fight.

Onmur said:
She backed off. That's about the opposite of lashing out.

If we don't push her back further, she'll stay back.

That's what I read.

Agreed.

Onmur said:
I don't think we're as frustrated as during the last few votes. I just don't see how we can really give her options, when Ono's options seem to point towards suicide.

I could try something:

... It might be time consuming, but how about we open ourselves to the possibility this talk might not be done tonight?

[X] "You want us out?"
-[X] Assuming confirmation: "Very well." Nod for Homura and Mami to go ahead. Leave a Grief Seed with Ono and, before leaving, "but we really need to talk. Please, we'll wait for you." Leave the doors open. When you're outside, ask Homura to drop her magic.

As I said, I don't agree with giving her false options. Your example is a genuine offered choice though, but I don't know if we can, because we have deliberately already forced a confrontation today and abandoning that, well, maybe sunk cost fallacy, but I don't think things will be better tomorrow. If anything, they'll be worse, because she'll spend all evening thinking about how helpless she was.

Onmur said:
Of course we're afraid of confronting her. We're afraid she might break into little pieces if we do.

???:

Firnagzen said:
"Get out," she hisses. "Get out. Get out!" Megane's eyes are wide, almost frightened as she stares at you, her back digging into the wall. Her hands clench into white knuckled fists, the muscles standing out.

Agent Whiskers said:
We might want to treat Megane somewhat like we would our friends. With compassion and understanding. Obviously not exactly alike since we're pretty much strangers. But basically treat her like someone who needs help, instead of some idiot that we need to save.

Isn't that what I've been saying all along?

[X] Take a step back, raise hands in conciliatory gesture.
-[X] "I'm sorry, but I can't."
[X] Wait. Wait until she's no longer frantic or shouting at us. Wait as long as necessary.
[X] When we have her complete attention, drop hands slowly, speak in gentle tones, and try to convey concern:
-[X] "If your soul gem fills, you'll die. We can help you, but we need to talk about it."
-[X] "All of us are worried about you. We can go elsewhere to talk, but please, we need you to hear us out."
[X] Pause to gauge if what we said had any impact or reaction.

As I said earlier, beating around the bush about why we're here is stupid. We only get one shot to say something she might listen to. It has to be the most important thing. I do not get the point in merely hinting at the facts by this juncture.

As for the rest: deliberately use her current freakout to draw her attention to our next words. If possible (lol), communicate that we're here out of concern for her well-being. Talk about what we need or want or demand, rather than putting anything on her. We don't want to say something like "you are killing yourself", true as it may be, because we aren't faulting her for anything here.

And I know that this may draw criticism for being too conciliatory. But that's not true at all. We will always have monopoly of force here. We can always force her to talk to us. At any point in our conversation, after any attempt has failed, we will always be able to fall back on "come talk to us or else we never leave". Plus, you'll note that despite the tone, the vote doesn't give her any choice.

cmwatford · Jul 30, 2015

[x] SWB
Works for me.

boonerunner · Jul 31, 2015

[X] SynchronizedWritersBlock

Muramasa · Jul 31, 2015

-[] "All of us are worried about you.

Not true. Homura doesn't particularly care. She's only here because... she wanted to do something nice for Sabrina?

The more I think about that, the more I'm touched.

Yeah, yeah I know. Not the point.

[] SynchronizedWritersBlock

Firnagzen · Jul 31, 2015

Vote tally:
##### 3.21
[x] I'm sorry, I can't do that.
No. of votes: 1
Lordsservent

[X] Muramasa
No. of votes: 9
Imrix, EtchedSteel, moonstne, Sereg, MrLZRS, AuraTwilight, Gadjo, Onmur, Dirtnap

[x] Alright
[x] We'll be on the roof when your ready. Five minutes.
No. of votes: 1
CornyBones

[X] Best Girl
No. of votes: 1
Kai Merah

[X] I'm sorry Megane. I'm afraid I can't do that. Your misconceptions about magical girls, witches and your magic need to be addressed tonight. Now. Your life depends on it.
[X] If you want a moment to collect yourself, that's fine. But we can't leave until we've had this talk.
-[X] You are burning through too much magic, too quickly. Your soul gem is darkening way too fast.
--[X] Mami, how many grief seeds does the average magical girl go through in a week?
-[X] You're killing yourself, Megane. That's what'll happen when your Soul Gem fills up completely, or when you go try to fight a Witch alone, while high on corruption. I told you, it affects your judgement in the worst way; apathy, uncontrollable despair, anger, irrational hate. It's an extremely dangerous position to be in.
-[X] And I can't have that. I can't have you ignorant of the dangers of this world you've been brought into.
--[X] Kyubey does not tell a magical girl anything other than to hunt witches, by its alien logic you are supposed to ask the right questions otherwise it is more than willing to let you go in blind into the contract without even mentioning the dangers of wishes or fighting a witch. Yes wishes can be dangerous, say the wrong thing and your mind can be damaged or broken entirely, not to mention there are some witches so powerful that it takes entire teams of magical girls to beat.
---[X] For all the fluffy outside, inside , kyubey is an inhuman being that only cares for stopping entropy through the most efficient method possible. It is not your friend, or ally it is at best a tool for disposing of grief. It regularly puts magical girls to fight against each as well as witches due to the extra grief that is produced by this.
-[X] If megane starts to become violent cleanse, restrain, and/or disconnect depending on what homura and mami think is best.
No. of votes: 1
noahgab1133

[X] Take a step back, raise hands in conciliatory gesture.
[X] Wait. Wait until she's no longer frantic or shouting at us. Wait as long as necessary.
[X] When we have her complete attention, drop hands slowly, speak in gentle tones, and try to convey concern:
-[X] If your soul gem fills, you'll die. We need to talk about how to prevent that.
-[X] All of us are worried about you. We can go elsewhere to talk, but please, we need you to hear us out.
[X] Pause to gauge if what we said had any impact. If no, new vote. If yes
-[X] We'll be up on the roof. Please join us when you're ready. Exit through window if possible, door if not, leave grief platforms.
No. of votes: 3
SynchronizedWritersBlock, boonerunner, Muramasa

[x] SWB
No. of votes: 1
cmwatford

Skelm · Jul 31, 2015

[X] SynchronizedWritersBlock

Lordsservent · Jul 31, 2015

[X] SynchronizedWritersBlock

CornyBones · Jul 31, 2015

Pull out the parts about everyone careing and it works

[x] SWB

SynchronizedWritersBlock · Jul 31, 2015

I mean, she might not care care, but I think she was worried in a technical sense. She went out of her way to point out what the problem was (magic use) earlier. And that the situation reminded her of things she's dealt with before speaks to some investment, even if it's not directly in Ono's well-being.

Muramasa said:
Not true. Homura doesn't particularly care. She's only here because... she wanted to do something nice for Sabrina?

The more I think about that, the more I'm touched.

On that tangent, yes, today has been absolutely incredible for Sabrina's friendship with Homura. I feel she finally gets us, savior complex, ridiculous dumb jokes, and all.

And then this happened:

Firnagzen said:
Homura bobs her head quickly in agreement. "Noted. This..." She thinks for a moment, her amethyst eyes distant and worried. "Do you..." She trails off, looking out over the city and grimacing.

"Hmm, Homura?" you ask, sitting up and peering at Homura.

"If... your information is good," she says, grimacing unhappily, eyes still looking out over the frozen cityscape rolling by beneath you. "Then... do you think this might be the 'feather'?"

A blink. That's the second time Homura asked you. You sigh. "I... I think maybe I'm being paranoid. I hope I'm just being paranoid. But... it could be. It could be."

She doesn't respond for a long, long moment, staring off into the distance before she finally refocuses on you. "Alright," she says simply.

You raise your eyebrows slowly. That's it?

She holds your gaze for a heartbeat longer before nodding, just a hair. That's it.

There's a lot of little nuance in there. There's acceptance that even if Sabrina could have something to do with the threat, that she remains an ally and isn't a threat herself. There's acceptance that the threat even exists, and therefore some level of acceptance that Oriko is telling the truth, even if it's filtered through Sabrina's "information" in her mind.

I'll also note that we're now reading a number of Homura's expressions through narration rather than through description. That's pretty cool too.

Gadjo · Jul 31, 2015

It's a good vote, but

SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
"If your soul gem fills, you'll die.

this is technically a lie. It could come back to bite us later when the witchbomb comes out. Thoughts?
[X] SWB

Lordsservent · Jul 31, 2015

Gadjo said:
It's a good vote, but

this is technically a lie. It could come back to bite us later when the witchbomb comes out. Thoughts?
[X] SWB

It's a technical truth, you die when your soul gem fills up, because the witch replaces you with itself, resulting in an untimely and horrifying demise.

SynchronizedWritersBlock · Jul 31, 2015

If you have a good suggestion as to what else we can say that is concise, technical truth, and convincing, I'm all ears.

We don't even know if someone doesn't die when they witch. Certainly, their body dies. Does consciousness continue? Does a witch actually represent their soul? Are they replaced with an alternate form? Is that death or not? Is it death when someone inevitably kills the witch? Is it death when that person inevitably gives the seed to Kyubey?

I considered something like "When your soul gem fills, if you're lucky you'll die quickly" but it's just too complex an idea to express in the single thought we get before the conversation goes to hell again.

edit: I'll also note one of the benefits of having done this time stopped is there's no Kyubey to contradict us.

chocolote12 · Jul 31, 2015

Lordsservent said:
It's a technical truth, you die when your soul gem fills up, because the witch replaces you with itself, resulting in an untimely and horrifying demise.

No, you aren't dead, you're just completely and maliciously insane. Saying that you die is a bad mind-set to be in if we want to dewitch grief seeds.

SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
If you have a good suggestion as to what else we can say that is concise, technical truth, and convincing, I'm all ears.

How about "Your soul gem is your soul; When it's filled, it shatters." Is that short enough, or still too long?

Gadjo · Jul 31, 2015

chocolote12 said:
No, you aren't dead, you're just completely and maliciously insane. Saying that you die is a bad mind-set to be in if we want to dewitch grief seeds.

How about "Your soul gem is your soul; When it's filled, it shatters." Is that short enough, or still too long?

works.

And I didn't mean that it was a huge problem, SWB, but I'm saying that it's a line that could buy ourselves trouble later. If I'd had a better way to say it, I'd have pitched it. Chocolate's ain't bad.

TJSomething · Jul 31, 2015

[x] SWB

Ugolino · Jul 31, 2015

...Yeah, no, the Mura vote is far too harsh. Not voting for it despite the bandwagon and generally agreeing.

For the love of god, try and be nice about this.

We can't go because we want to help her. We want to help her because we said we would, because it's what we do, and because she clearly needs the help.

In short: Ono needs hugs badly. Apply hugs, literal or conversational.

EDIT:

Okay, I read the revised, revised, revised Murawagon.

No. PLEASE STOP FOR A SECOND.

Goddamnit, no. This is exactly the wrong approach to take. RED LIGHT DO NOT PASS GO DO NOT COLLECT 200 GRIEF SEEDS. TAKE A LONG LOOK AT THIS VOTE. THIS- all respect to Muramasa and his usually fairly insightful voting- IS NOT A GOOD VOTE and we all need to take a long look at it and back the fuck away from this approach.

Vote in white, commentary in blue.

[] Take a step back, raise hands in conciliatory gesture.
Ono is freaking out. This line in and of itself will probably de-escalate the situation somewhat, but doesn't actually help things. She'll still want us gone, still be panicking, and we won't have actually made things better. A better alternative would be, say, the line about 'I'm sorry, I can't do that' and explaining why. Namely, that we think she needs help and we want to do that.
[] Wait. Wait until she's no longer frantic or shouting at us. Wait as long as necessary.
Uh...not going to happen without us actually doing something. Which we haven't.
[] When we have her complete attention, drop hands slowly, speak in gentle tones, and try to convey concern:
-[] If your soul gem fills, you'll die. We need to talk about how to prevent that.
Maybe a good idea overall- once she's a bit calmer and inclined to take us seriously. TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE IDEA RIGHT NOW. SHE'S PANICKING, WAS IN DESPAIR, AND IS DISTRESSED. ADD A BOMB AND WE HAVE A RECIPE FOR INSTANT OR DELAYED WITCHBOMB, SERVES THREE.
-[] All of us are worried about you. We can go elsewhere to talk, but please, we need you to hear us out.
Decent line. Needs more emotion. 'All of us' should stay, Homura is worried about her even if she doesn't really care for her as a person that much.
[] Pause to gauge if what we said had any impact. If no, new vote. If yes
-[] We'll be up on the roof. Please join us when you're ready. Exit through window if possible, door if not, leave grief platforms.
This. This is the part that utterly sinks the vote for me. If we leave her, the way she asked? She'll just shut us out again, literally or figuratively, and without us having helped her. The only thing to come of this line will be her putting up her magical poker face again, not being inclined to listen, and probably just fleeing or hiding from us until it's too late. We should not leave her, even briefly, until we've calmed things down and gotten her to listen and be relatively stable.

A good vote needs to a)not leave, b)explain that we want to help, c)try appealing to her current problems and issues (annoyance with us being late, despair over marks and her non-meguca life, whatever the hell's going on with the glass thing and her wish...) rather than piling on new and worse ones

Muramasa · Jul 31, 2015

Ugolino said:
...Yeah, no, the Mura vote is far too harsh. Not voting for it despite the bandwagon and generally agreeing.

For the love of god, try and be nice about this.

We can't go because we want to help her. We want to help her because we said we would, because it's what we do, and because she clearly needs the help.

In short: Ono needs hugs badly. Apply hugs, literal or conversational.

Uh Ugo? That vote is very much outdated.

Ugolino · Jul 31, 2015

Muramasa said:
Uh Ugo? That vote is very much outdated.

I saw. I'm...kind of quietly appalled by the replacement and typing up my reaction into my previous post. But...yeah, I kind of prefer your old vote, actually or at least one that doesn't have us hit every single wrong note when it comes to social (initial reaction, dropping bad news on her when she's in this state, then outright leaving her...)

Sereg · Jul 31, 2015

SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
It's too late for her not feeling weak. We showed up in a place where what she feels weak about is on display. That ship sailed the moment we made our presence known.

I never claimed otherwise. I'm saying that she needs to believe that that we aren't treating her the way we are because we think she's weak. That we'd treat any MG of any strength the same way.

That is not a real choice because she has already made her preference clear.

And I'm unconvinced that something she yelled in panic without understanding of going on represents what she really wants. Especially considering the fact that she probably meant "Leave me alone". We're having this meeting. Ad I'm willing to let her decide where. It's a concession we can afford to give her, is only fair and may help her realise that we're willing to give her some choices.

It's framing a demand to see her as a "choice".

No, it isn't. We were never indicating that she had a choice in whether or not we see her. We're giving her the choice of where we see her and how long she can prepare for it. And I want her to have those choices as I want her as comfortable as she can be in the meeting.

My point of view is that we should not offer choices that are not genuine, even if that means offering no choices at all.

They are genuine. I really want the meeting to happen in the place she's most comfortable with and after she's calmed down, however long that will take.

Her entire body language suggests the only way we get a violent reaction is if we try going closer. It is literally her trying everything to avoid us. It is not indicating in the least she would fight.

I think you're probably right. I think she'll only attack if her assessment of our threat level rises or if our intrusion increases. Which she may possibly see us staying as.

As I said, I don't agree with giving her false options.

There was nothing false about the options. We can meet here or elsewhere. I'm happy with either choice. We can give her 5, 10, 15, 20 etc. minutes to calm down. Again, if that's what she wants, she should get it.

because we have deliberately already forced a confrontation today and abandoning that, well, maybe sunk cost fallacy, but I don't think things will be better tomorrow. If anything, they'll be worse, because she'll spend all evening thinking about how helpless she was.

Agreed.

[X] Take a step back, raise hands in conciliatory gesture.
[X] Wait. Wait until she's no longer frantic or shouting at us. Wait as long as necessary.
[X] When we have her complete attention, drop hands slowly, speak in gentle tones, and try to convey concern:
-[X] "If your soul gem fills, you'll die. We need to talk about how to prevent that."
-[X] "All of us are worried about you. We can go elsewhere to talk, but please, we need you to hear us out."
[X] Pause to gauge if what we said had any impact. If no, new vote. If yes
-[X] "We'll be up on the roof. Please join us when you're ready." Exit through window if possible, door if not, leave grief platforms.

I don't understand how this vote is different from what you objected to in the last vote. I also consider "all of us" to be a lie. That said, I'm mostly okay with it.

As I said earlier, beating around the bush about why we're here is stupid. We only get one shot to say something she might listen to. It has to be the most important thing. I do not get the point in merely hinting at the facts by this juncture.

I don't see the difference in your vote from Mura's as far as this is concerned.

As for the rest: deliberately use her current freakout to draw her attention to our next words. If possible (lol), communicate that we're here out of concern for her well-being. Talk about what we need or want or demand, rather than putting anything on her. We don't want to say something like "you are killing yourself", true as it may be, because we aren't faulting her for anything here.

I don't really understand most of this but I agree that we don't want to blame her.

And I know that this may draw criticism for being too conciliatory. But that's not true at all. We will always have monopoly of force here. We can always force her to talk to us. At any point in our conversation, after any attempt has failed, we will always be able to fall back on "come talk to us or else we never leave". Plus, you'll note that despite the tone, the vote doesn't give her any choice.

It gives her a choice in when to be ready.

Gadjo said:
It's a good vote, but

this is technically a lie. It could come back to bite us later when the witchbomb comes out. Thoughts?
[X] SWB

Oh, you will die. When a meguca kills you for your grief seed.

Eh ...

[x] SWB

Despite my objections, I think this is about the best we're going to get for now.[/QUOTE]

Ugolino · Jul 31, 2015

Added my commentary on the SWB vote two posts above.

tl;dr: Stop and think this through before we bandwagon our way into a disaster. The SWB vote is a bad vote- probably the worst one in this entire set for the likely result- and I can't vote for it.

Sereg · Jul 31, 2015

Yeah, Ugo has a point.

[x] Null

At last until I've thought more.

SynchronizedWritersBlock · Jul 31, 2015

Ugolino said:
A better alternative would be, say, the line about 'I'm sorry, I can't do that' and explaining why. Namely, that we think she needs help and we want to do that.

Your objections are contradictory: We think she needs help because we think she'll Witch, or as we're putting it, die, suicide, whatever. If you want to stop and explain that to her, it needs to actually be said. You can't explain why we're here and why we can't leave this till later without actually explaining that.

Ugolino said:
This. This is the part that utterly sinks the vote for me. If we leave her, the way she asked? She'll just shut us out again, literally or figuratively, and without us having helped her. The only thing to come of this line will be her putting up her magical poker face again, not being inclined to listen, and probably just fleeing or hiding from us until it's too late. We should not leave her, even briefly, until we've calmed things down and gotten her to listen and be relatively stable.

This, I get, kind of. Cutting the final line would just have us stop and see if we had any impact, which is fine?
EDIT: edit made

Ugolino said:
A good vote needs to a)not leave, b)explain that we want to help, c)try appealing to her current problems and issues (annoyance with us being late, despair over marks and her non-meguca life, whatever the hell's going on with the glass thing and her wish...) rather than piling on new and worse ones

This isn't why we're here. If it was just this stuff, we would never have made the trip.

Ugolino · Jul 31, 2015

SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
Your objections are contradictory: We think she needs help because we think she'll Witch, or as we're putting it, die, suicide, whatever. If you want to stop and explain that to her, it needs to actually be said. You can't explain why we're here and why we can't leave this till later without actually explaining that.

This, I get, kind of. Cutting the final line would just have us stop and see if we had any impact, which is fine?

This isn't why we're here. If it was just this stuff, we would never have made the trip.

She wants us to get out. We can't get out because we feel we need to help her, both by letting her know things (LATER) and by doing what we can for her other problems because we want her to be better off. Just say that we want to help. There's no contradiction there.

We don't need to drop the details of the horrible truth on her right off the bat while she's still screaming at us and unstable. That screams bad idea, and I'm amazed you can't see why.

Leaving in general is just plain awful as an idea right now. I don't like just stopping but literally anything is better than that last line in your vote. There are some good ideas in the rest of it, but I don't think it's workable or a good idea at all in its current form...and don't like the approach to Ono having a breakdown. (ie: dropping more problems on her while she's upset rather than actually trying to offer help)

I disagree that it isn't why we're here.

That is exactly why we're here- as far as we can tell her, anyway- and I feel the character written properly would have made the trip for those reasons. You know, because we're playing someone who generally cares about and tries to help others? And Ono needs help with her various issues (survival-related among them) whether she's happy about it or not?

The only answer that makes sense for Sabrina, based on how she's been written for the whole story so far, to Firn's question of 'Will you take on the world's problems?' is 'yes'...and in that sense, we have no reason not to vote to say and act as such.

Muramasa · Jul 31, 2015

Ugo does have a point. Reverting back to the revert. God this vote.

[X] *shake head* "I can't."
[X] "You're dying and you don't even know it."
[x] Megane, we wouldn't have broken in like this if your life wasn't in danger.
-[x] Take one of your Grief Seeds (Andrea). Place it on a desk or bedside.
[X] Stand with Mami and Homura.
[X] "Please calm down. No one here wants to hurt you."

Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

Best Girl

Best Girl

Servant of the one true God and SV

Doka

Servant of the one true God and SV

A Penguin Flailing Against The Keyboard Of Life.

Doka

That's... that's impossible!

Best Girl

Banned Forever

Banned Forever

Best Girl