Hmm. The Mura edit runs into some of the same issues as SWB's in terms of piling on trauma ('dying' is coming on a bit too strong, tbh, even if it might get through to her. She's the glass witch and we don't want to accidentally break another guca...) but it's less problematic.

Also, the third line kind of implies that we wouldn't give a shit about her problems if she wasn't literally going to die, which while kind of sort of maybe true to some extent...could be phrased better given that it seemed like she was going to witch out over them and homework?

These are more or less nitpicks over wording, though.

Butchery of the vote follows.

[X] *shake head* "I can't. I'm sorry, but I need to help you. You need our help."
[X] "You're in danger and you don't even know it."
[X] "Megane, we wouldn't have broken in like this if the danger wasn't real."
-[x] Take one of your Grief Seeds (Andrea). Place it on a desk or bedside.
[X] Stand with Mami and Homura.
[X] "Please calm down. No one here's going to hurt you. We just want to talk."
 
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...Yeah, but that's not the kind of hurting we're referring to...and this situation is going to call for a few pleasant lies before we get to the less pleasant, necessary truths.

"No one here wants to hurt you" sounds like an accidental implied threat, at least to me.

As an aside, I really, really, really think the disdain for Ono (WTF, guys, Sabrina considering leaving her to witch is NOT a good sign) leaking into the story posts should be raising more alarm bells than it has been. First, because we should be better than that. Second beacuse it's bad if she notices, or worse Mami notices. Third, because there are advantages to having an unbroken track record on the 'saving people' thing rather than 'screw her, she's too much trouble. Let her burn in Incubator grief-hell, who cares?'
 
She wants us to get out. We can't get out because we feel we need to help her, both by letting her know things (LATER) and by doing what we can for her other problems because we want her to be better off. Just say that we want to help. There's no contradiction there.

Saying we just want to help will have no impact because of the exactly the reaction she is having at the moment. We already tried the approach that we urgently need to give her information and it bombed, three times. She doesn't want our help, and if we don't show why the help is necessary, she will continue to reject it in the same manner.



We don't need to drop the details of the horrible truth on her right off the bat while she's still screaming at us and unstable. That screams bad idea, and I'm amazed you can't see why.

Except the vote doesn't do anything while she's screaming at us, so thanks for the misrepresentation I guess.

If we say anything else, we fail to show that the problem is bigger than her desire to not deal with us right now. That's a failure state for the entire conversation. We literally cannot afford to say anything else first.



I disagree that it isn't why we're here.

That is exactly why we're here- as far as we can tell her., anyway- and I feel the character written properly would have made the trip for those reasons. You know, because we're playing someone who generally cares about and tries to help others? And Ono needs help with her various issues (survival-related among them) whether she's happy about it or not?

The only answer that makes sense for Sabrina, based on how she's been written for the whole story so far, to Firn's question of 'Will you take on the world's problems?' is 'yes'...and in that sense, we have no reason not to vote to say and act as such.


I feel the appeal to character is absolutely ridiculous, but to entertain the idea even a little,

We are NOT a person who tackles issues with a whether they're happy about it or not. We skirt those lines sometimes, but in this case we're tackling an issue of survival first, and the others only if it's feasible. If we tried to fix everything we saw regardless of what others wanted, why not get on Kyoko's case about witch farming? Why feel guilty about breaking Mami, or about ignoring her opinions? Why worry about other characters' agency at all? That we agonize over these things shows to me that while we want to help people, we also want to respect them. So your character interpretation is terrible.

Anyway, that got a bit diluted, but to bring it back:
We wouldn't have made the trip if survival wasn't on the line because it could have literally waited until tomorrow.
Survival is why we are here, in her bedroom, in timestop, right now. You cannot get around that fact. She needs to know.
 
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@Ugolino
"No one here wants to hurt you" sounds like an accidental implied threat, at least to me.

I think that's a bit of a stretch personally. However I do like the changes in your third line so if you don't mind I'll be borrowing that. *yoink*

re in danger vs dying:

We very much do need to get through to her this vote. Saying she's in danger is just too vague for me and thus doesn't really do enough to avoid stonewalling IMO.
 
We tried to say we need to give her information. We haven't tried communicating that we give a damn about her properly, at all.

What is guaranteed to backfire, spectacularly, is yelling at her about horrible things that she won't be inclined to believe or even listen to right off the bat without so much as an apology.

It's entirely accurate to say that's more or less what you want us to do- since she isn't going to calm down if we stand there like we've been degemmed.

...Ono is not a robot. She will not feed the data card into her input slot, analyze our response with a positronic brain, and spit out a sheet of paper that says 'This situation is bigger than me and my irritiation'. She'll keep yelling at us to get out and we will have done nothing of value, at absolute best. At worst, she actually does shut up long enough for us to break her enough for her to try and force us out and break down, which WILL end in tears for all involved.

You seem to want to treat the entire cast like robots with specific inputs and pre-preprogrammed responses. They aren't robots.

...My character interpretation is terrible. Right. Sure. Let's go with that. :rolleyes:

In that case, I'm sure you'll be able to explain why the damn character has been consistently meddling where she sees problems to the point where it's a core trait. Why she didn't just skip off and leave Nagisa when she clearly wasn't meguca. Why she actively intervened in Sendai in an attempt to find the best way for everyone, with Masami when no one really wanted her there at the time, and let's throw in the Sayaka hospital situation to boot where her aid was largely unlooked and unasked for.

Sabrina is consistently a meddler who tries to do the best for others, despite they might think of her at the time...because she thinks she knows better. That isn't a mark of a perfect character, but it is a mark of an interesting one. And it's well, well established.

OF COURSE Ono needs to know the basics of Meguca 101 before we leave. She does not however need to know right this minute while still wanting us gone with every fiber of her being. That is not a sane response to her being in that state.

@Ugolino


I think that's a bit of a stretch personally. However I do like the changes in your third line so if you don't mind I'll be borrowing that. *yoink*

re in danger vs dying:

We very much do need to get through to her this vote. Saying she's in danger is just too vague for me and thus doesn't really do enough to avoid stonewalling IMO.
Hmmm. The other problem with dying is that she can just go 'Uh, no, I feel perfectly alive' and shut us out. The same's true of 'in danger', somewhat...but it avoids the 'LOLNO I FEEL FINE' response approach and gives us something to build on, even if it is less drastic.

EDIT:
Hmm. My edit's first line is a bit too Cyberman/feels a bit off. Editing to current Muravote for now.
 
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Hmmm. The other problem with dying is that she can just go 'Uh, no, I feel perfectly alive' and shut us out. The same's true of 'in danger', somewhat...but it avoids the 'LOLNO I FEEL FINE' response approach and gives us something to build on, even if it is less drastic.

People can still be dying and yet feel completely fine. The line implies trouble she doesn't realize. Not only that but the line flows well into the third line so unless Megane just chooses to disregard everything we say, she can't just ignore it.

And as I said, in danger just feels to vague and nebulous. I don't think it's going to get through to her and we need to make impact on this vote.
 
People can still be dying and yet feel completely fine. The line implies trouble she doesn't realize. Not only that but the line flows well into the third line so unless Megane just chooses to disregard everything we say, she can't just ignore it.

And as I said, in danger just feels to vague and nebulous. I don't think it's going to get through to her and we need to make impact on this vote.
Yeah, but 'dying' seems like it'd provoke a kneejerk reaction and disbelief more than 'in danger' would...and is a bit too close to, say, an uncontrolled lichbomb and trauma for my tastes. I really, really think it's a bad idea to use that word right now...but your vote's the best option right now so sticking with the vote for it as I head off.

But seriously, dying may be the wrong word/phrase to use here.
 
We tried to say we need to give her information. We haven't tried communicating that we give a damn about her properly, at all.

What is guaranteed to backfire, spectacularly, is yelling at her about horrible things that she won't be inclined to believe or even listen to right off the bat without so much as an apology.

It's entirely accurate to say that's more or less what you want us to do- since she isn't going to calm down if we stand there like we've been degemmed.

You're making things up. Yell at her? In the vote that specifically says to deliver in gentle, concerned tone?



...Ono is not a robot. She will not feed the data card into her input slot, analyze our response with a positronic brain, and spit out a sheet of paper that says 'This situation is bigger than me and my irritiation'. She'll keep yelling at us to get out and we will have done nothing of value, at absolute best. At worst, she actually does shut up long enough for us to break her enough for her to try and force us out and break down, which WILL end in tears for all involved.

You seem to want to treat the entire cast like robots with specific inputs and pre-preprogrammed responses. They aren't robots.

Oh, so Ono is going to keep repeating the same thing when it fails to get us to leave, but I'm the one who treats the cast like robots?

If we want to show concern for her, genuine concern, then we should mention the thing we're actually concerned about.

The rest, whatever it is, wish, family life, school, these are all areas that Ono is freaking out about right now. She's freaking out about them because they're on display for us. You want to poke that by implying that we can somehow make any of that better?

That's more likely to get her angry at us and throw us the fuck out than anything else we can say.



It's a fundamental misunderstanding of both her character and the situation that we can tackle any of her personal issues immediately, or that we should suggest that we can tackle her personal issues while she is freaking out about her personal issues.

I think we can help her with whatever is wrong in her life too, but it's completely incorrect to bring it up now.




...My character interpretation is terrible. Right. Sure. Let's go with that. :rolleyes:

In that case, I'm sure you'll be able to explain why the damn character has been consistently meddling where she sees problems to the point where it's a core trait. Why she didn't just skip off and leave Nagisa when she clearly wasn't meguca. Why she actively intervened in Sendai in an attempt to find the best way for everyone, with Masami when no one really wanted her there at the time, and let's throw in the Sayaka hospital situation to boot where her aid was largely unlooked and unasked for.

Sabrina is consistently a meddler who tries to do the best for others, despite they might think of her at the time...because she thinks she knows better. That isn't a mark of a perfect character, but it is a mark of an interesting one. And it's well, well established.

There's meddling and there's meddling when we are specifically unwanted. We've done a lot of the former, which you give as examples, and avoided doing a lot of the latter, unless lives are at risk, like for example, Sendai. Breaking into Ono's house because we think she's at risk to die makes sense. Breaking into Ono's house because we think she's in the dumps, has problems at school, needs to be propped up by our loving support or whatever? We wouldn't do that if her life wasn't also at risk. We'd wait until an appropriate time when we could intervene without her rejecting our assistance.

That's the point. The reason we're here against her will is that her life is at risk.
 
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Right ... Let's get cracking

[x] Be gentle and comforting, but firm
[x] "We're not going to abandon you, Ono."
[x] "If you want to have this meeting elsewhere, that's fine, but then you're coming with us."
[x] "We're worried about you and you're part of our team now. We don't abandon our teammates, even when they've been deceived and think that they'd be better off alone."
[x] "A magical girl cannot be successful by herself for long. You haven't been taught how to survive as a magical girl and we're not leaving you till we're satisfied that we aren't going to lose you."
[x] "Being a magical girl is more dangerous than you've been led to believe and I don't want to lose you."
[x] "I am sorry that I contributed to your problems with my delays. I would not have delayed if I had realised how urgent this meeting was and I never intended to insult you. I hope that you will forgive me, but first, I need to keep you alive."
[x] "I also see that you have had stress elsewhere. You don't have to talk to us about those, but I hope that you will be willing to accept our help, or at least our ears, there too."
[x] "We're having this meeting tonight, because I'm not losing you, Ono. But if you need a minute to collect yourself or wish to suggest a different location, that's up to you.


Could possibly use more polishing, but I think this does what we need to do the best so far.
 
You're making things up. Yell at her? In the vote that specifically says to deliver in gentle, concerned tone?





Oh, so Ono is going to keep repeating the same thing when it fails to get us to leave, but I'm the one who treats the cast like robots?

If we want to show concern for her, genuine concern, then we should mention the thing we're actually concerned about.

The rest, whatever it is, wish, family life, school, these are all areas that Ono is freaking out about right now. She's freaking out about them because they're on display for us. You want to poke that by implying that we can somehow make any of that better?

That's more likely to get her angry at us and throw us the fuck out than anything else we can say.



It's a fundamental misunderstanding of both her character and the situation that we can tackle any of her personal issues immediately, or that we should suggest that we can tackle her personal issues while she is freaking out about her personal issues.

I think we can help her with whatever is wrong in her life too, but it's completely incorrect to bring it up now.






There's meddling and there's meddling when we are specifically unwanted. We've done a lot of the former, which you give as examples, and avoided doing a lot of the latter, unless lives are at risk, like for example, Sendai. Breaking into Ono's house because we think she's at risk to die makes sense. Breaking into Ono's house because we think she's in the dumps, has problems at school, needs to be propped up by our loving support or whatever? We wouldn't do that if her life wasn't also at risk. We'd wait until an appropriate time when we could intervene without her rejecting our assistance.

That's the point. The reason we're here against her will is that her life is at risk.
You can say 'I'm going to brutally murder your family and wear your skin like a coat while dancing around covered in blood.' in a nice, gentle tone, but it won't sound any better for it. Yell may not have been an accurate description, but that doesn't make the contents of the vote any better for it.

Yes, because she's angry, confused, possibly magically mindwhammied and under a compulsion thanks to her wish...and we're not doing anything to change a bit of that other than stand there like a dummy at the start of your vote. That is not helping. That is literally doing nothing at all and expecting a positive result to come out of it. Spoilers: it won't.

We give a shit about her family issues because her family issues are going to help get her killed and make our job of a happy, non-Witch Ono team member that much harder. That, and fixing stuff we don't need to is kind of what we do. We have plenty of reason to care about her issues, and it's bizarre that you keep trying to insist we don't.

We should start off with the friendly, nonspecific approach, then move on to the actual problems, including said horrible truth, preferably delivered with slightly more tact. Not just jump off the deep end with something that'll probably break her further...which would be idiotic in any case but is downright inexplicable when she's emotionally fragile and mindwhammied to the point where she's a GLASS witch. As in handle with care, may break if trauma is dropped on her.

Incorrect. Sabrina can and has meddled in personal affairs if she thinks she can make them better...and I don't think I'm the one misunderstanding the character in the slightest. Especially since her personal issues are the whole problem here from her POV. Your objection, such as it is, would be why we'd start by calming her down and not, say, dropping further, mostly unrelated trauma on her like a ton of bricks.

We've meddled when our assistance hasn't been asked for because we felt we can make a difference- lives or otherwise. None of the people involved in the Kyousuke incident were happy with our attempts to redirect them at the start, for example. Kyouko wanted nothing to do with us, and she'd probably have gone right on living if we'd left her alone after that. It's an established trait at this point.

This is definitely one of those cases since leaving whatever her problems are out of this is essentially ignoring the probable cause of her wish, a large portion of why she's the way she is, and probably one of the major causes of grief for her.

No matter what you think about Ono, that isn't smart if our goal here is to actually get a happy ending and an Ono we can leave alone without snapping.

EDIT: Okay, so I'm not a fan of the specific wording of the second half...but the Sereg vote seems like its onto something. Anyone got thoughts on it?

Also, editing my vote from Mura's slightly since that 'dying' line keeps bothering me.

[X] *shake head* "I can't."
[X] "You're in danger and you don't even know it."
[X] "Megane, we wouldn't have broken in like this if the danger wasn't real."
-[x] Take one of your Grief Seeds (Andrea). Place it on a desk or bedside.
[X] Stand with Mami and Homura.
[X] "Please calm down. No one here wants to hurt you."
 
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How I parse the difference between the two votes with momentum: SWB's is trying to calm her somewhat before laying anything else on her, while Muramasa's is hoping to get through by explaining why now and giving Megane a chance to breathe afterwards. (Andrea seems a minor issue, easily addressed later.)

I can't help but wonder how much of the current situation we can blame on Kyubey and whatever he said to Megane when he picked up the full Gwen, presumably after school when Sabrina delayed for reasons of Mami.
This is definitely one of those cases since leaving whatever her problems are out of this is essentially ignoring the probable cause of her wish, a large portion of why she's the way she is, and probably one of the major causes of grief for her.
Er... and? If Sabrina can't convince her to talk she'll never know enough about those issues to do anything resembling useful. Both SWB and Muramasa are trying to get to a point where Sabrina and Megane are actually talking, and part of that is explaining why now despite Megane's obvious reluctance.

Maybe we should plan for success and try to discuss her schoolwork, family issues, and her need for control/a facade. Too much fumbling in the dark for my tastes, but I can see the reasoning.
 
How I parse the difference between the two votes with momentum: SWB's is trying to calm her somewhat before laying anything else on her, while Muramasa's is hoping to get through by explaining why now and giving Megane a chance to breathe afterwards. (Andrea seems a minor issue, easily addressed later.)

I can't help but wonder how much of the current situation we can blame on Kyubey and whatever he said to Megane when he picked up the full Gwen, presumably after school when Sabrina delayed for reasons of Mami.

Er... and? If Sabrina can't convince her to talk she'll never know enough about those issues to do anything resembling useful. Both SWB and Muramasa are trying to get to a point where Sabrina and Megane are actually talking, and part of that is explaining why now despite Megane's obvious reluctance.

Maybe we should plan for success and try to discuss her schoolwork, family issues, and her need for control/a facade. Too much fumbling in the dark for my tastes, but I can see the reasoning.
If SWB is trying to calm her, then standing and doing nothing is a very poor way to go about it. It seems unlikely to defuse the situation, unlikely to calm her down, and all around unlikely to do anything except upset her further, sour things, and possibly even get us attacked. Following up that dismal start with perhaps the worst diplomacy (If your soul gem fills, you'll die. We need to talk about how to prevent that.) I've seen in this entire quest rather than leading in with something more sensible like actually saying we're concerned (seriously, I'm all for getting things done in a timely fashion, but the way we rush to drop that on her in the SWB vote is just insane) is just the icing on the cake.

Andrea isn't something important to the vote but it doesn't do any harm. Agreed on Kyubey probably intervening- he's been too quiet lately.

Yes. I understand that, which is why I noted discussion- including about her situation and any other facts of life should actually come AFTER we get through to her. ie: not dropped after standing around like a dummy and doing nothing to get through to her.

Right now, the SWB vote looks like less a plan and more like a social suicide note. Moving the line about dying to the very, very end and rewriting it to something less...well, Homu-tier or just plain getting rid of it would be a good band-aid but it doesn't seem like a good approach at all.

I'm all for discussing those points once we get through to her, and wouldn't mind a vote where we bring those up once she's calm enough.
 
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Gah, sorry guys, but I'll keep lurking until Ono is dealt with or at least stable.
Social is my worst side IRL, and that's with non-traumatized males (no offense girls, but talking to those of your gender is objectively more complicated).
 
Following up that dismal start with perhaps the worst diplomacy (If your soul gem fills, you'll die. We need to talk about how to prevent that.) I've seen in this entire quest rather than leading in with something more sensible like actually saying we're concerned (seriously, I'm all for getting things done in a timely fashion, but the way we rush to drop that on her in the SWB vote is just insane) is just the icing on the cake.

We already did that at the end of the last update, right before she started yelling at us:
"This might be a delayed answer-" you say, drawing the Grief out of her Soul Gem with a crook of your finger "-but I do rather think your life is very important." The Grief billows from her Soul Gem, tenebrous and swirling in a malevolent cloud in front of her for a moment before you collapse it down into marbles.
I don't think repeating the sentiment will help.
 
I don't know what

[X] No/I can't/I'm not leaving/etc. Repeat until Ono stops demanding we leave.
-[X] Unless she becomes aggresive, take a seat somewhere. This might take a while.
[X] Once she stops, transform your Soul Gem into egg form. "Look at me, Ono. This is what I am." Show Gem. "The day this thing breaks, is the day I die; and the day this fills up with grief, is the day it'll shatter." (Careful when presenting your weak point. DC Ono from timestop if necessary)
-[X] Return Gem to ring form. "This is my life, now. Our life."
[X] If she doesn't panic further, give her a moment and, "Wanna go for a walk?"

This could be phrased a lot better, I think, but the idea is to, instead of telling her "you'll die if your Soul Gem fills up", "your Soul Gem will shatter, and then you die", we use ourselves as an example.

Then, if possible, try to actually do as she wants and 'get out', just saying it in a kind sort of way.
 
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