Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

[Ugolino]

Hitomi doesn't need to know that Sayaka and Madoka are at risk from Kyubey.

She isn't their best friend, and wouldn't want to discourage them from doing anything dangerous or rash. She doesn't need to know that someone is actively trying to tempt them to make a mistake and will arrange situations where that's necessary, because that isn't something where a level headed friend can keep Madoka's martyr complex in check and act as a way to stop Sayaka from being bullheaded. She doesn't need to know either that they need support and a friendly ear. She especially doesn't need to know Sayaka's especially at risk because of her feelings of obligation that she doesn't need to know about either. It's completely alright. She doesn't need to know anything from us at all, even though getting her in the loop was the whole purpose for this conversation.

We can just leave it all unsaid and pray they'll chatter about their own very specific problems while we're not watching in enough detail and clearly enough to get the point across, rather than being reticent, awkward, and reluctant to talk about things they still don't quite get the magnitude of themselves. Sabrina doesn't need to do anything, things will always work out for the best, and I have some beachfront property in Nevada you might be interested in.

 

[CompassJimbo]

Ugo, you... might wanna take a chill pill.

 

[Torgamous]

She isn't their best friend, and wouldn't want to discourage them from doing anything dangerous or rash. She doesn't need to know that someone is actively trying to tempt them to make a mistake and will arrange situations where that's necessary, because that isn't something where a level headed friend can keep Madoka's martyr complex in check and act as a way to stop Sayaka from being bullheaded.

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She already knows enough on the Kyuubey end of things that just her knowing that Madoka and Sayaka could be magical girls is sufficient here. I would not object to that information being included in Kinematic's vote.

She especially doesn't need to know Sayaka's especially at risk because of her feelings of obligation that she doesn't need to know about either.

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Not in the context of revealing magic. People need to know lots of things, but you don't roll them all into one conversation.

She doesn't need to know either that they need support and a friendly ear.

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If we have to tell her to do this she isn't their best friend.

 

[Kinematics]

Stalling is counterproductive

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This is your answer to everything. It is not an argument. It doesn't have any logical support, nor does it explain what you think 'counterproductive' means, other than "I don't wanna." Largely, it's your standard lead-in to flame bait.

how is she not asking about that?

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How is she asking?

The whole point of that line is that we failed to properly explain how Madoka and Sayaka got involved.

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How they got involved is an entire story unto itself, and involves far more than just Kyuubey. It's also not our story to tell, unless you like casually destroying people's agency. Namely, it's Madoka and Sayaka's story; why shouldn't they be allowed to tell it themselves? Calling it a failure is not an accurate assessment.

We do not want her to be ignorant of what Kyubey's trying to do, of what a contract means, and what position her friends are in for no benefit whatsoever to us or anyone else.

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Yes. That's a strawman, though, for the purpose of the current situation.

We've seen how that song and dance goes with canon.

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Another red herring. I am not advocating not ever telling her anything, or suggesting that we tell everyone else to never explain the details of the system to her.

And as the last vote shows, if they act on their own initiative, it obviously won't come up thanks to us...

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So you're asserting that the 'problem' is the other characters acting on their own initiative? Well, that's in line with prior instances of your approach to things.

but them speaking up doesn't make avoiding taking action for avoiding action's sake any more productive.

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Another common refrain from you, in terms of non-arguments. More flame bait.

This is a quest not a non-interactive story, and the idea that taking action or planning to cover things in a timely fashion is somehow undesirable or bad is just a bizarre phobia.

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Strawman. The first part of the sentence is meaningless, and the last part of mischaracterizing what I'm advocating.

It's not patience. It's sticking our head in the sand and saying "surely this will work out".

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More flame bait.


I'm not interested in getting dragged into another of your flame wars. I will not bother trying to dissect further flame-bait posts. Please try to come up with a logically sound argument for your position.

 

[Gadjo]

Hitomi doesn't need to know that Sayaka and Madoka are at risk from Kyubey.

She isn't their best friend, and wouldn't want to discourage them from doing anything dangerous or rash. She doesn't need to know that someone is actively trying to tempt them to make a mistake and will arrange situations where that's necessary, because that isn't something where a level headed friend can keep Madoka's martyr complex in check and act as a way to stop Sayaka from being bullheaded. She doesn't need to know either that they need support and a friendly ear. She especially doesn't need to know Sayaka's especially at risk because of her feelings of obligation that she doesn't need to know about either. It's completely alright. She doesn't need to know anything from us at all, even though getting her in the loop was the whole purpose for this conversation.

We can just leave it all unsaid and pray they'll chatter about their own very specific problems while we're not watching in enough detail and clearly enough to get the point across, rather than being reticent, awkward, and reluctant to talk about things they still don't quite get the magnitude of themselves. Sabrina doesn't need to do anything, things will always work out for the best, and I have some beachfront property in Nevada you might be interested in.

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Saltier than I'd put it, but it's a good point: a lot of grief could have been avoided in the main series if the characters had just communicated openly. We shouldn't trust them to bring it all out in the open before it becomes important. We tell her now, and we don't have to worry about bombing her with more stuff down the road (other than the witchbomb, when we have to, of course). It really is just putting it off for it's own sake, and if I'm wrong and she interrupts us, we just go from there, no harm done. This isn't Sendai, and these aren't negotiations. We can bring her up to speed, and if we can't, it's no loss and we can just pick it up later like some of you seem to want to do anyway.

 

[boonerunner]

Because for some reason we must Absolutely Tell Her Everything There Is To Know About the Magical System Right This Instant. Because we will never have another chance to talk to her. She won't be talking with Sayaka at home, or Madoka at school, or anyone at the picnic, or have any conversations with anyone else, ever. She will not come up with questions on her own. Madoka and Sayaka have no interest in talking with her themselves; they require Sabrina to Answer All Questions so that they don't have to worry about ever doing anything. Hitomi doesn't need to learn at her own pace; she must be Told. And learning about Kyuubey (a creature she'd never even heard about, and is surely the foremost concern on her mind right now; not the issue of what this says about her relationship with her friends, or what they may or may not be trying to get her to do) is absolutely urgent, despite the fact that she'd been kept completely in the dark for the last couple weeks.

Basically, it's reminiscent of all the conversation problems Sabrina had throughout the Sendai conflict. The obsessive, demanding, overbearing approach of forcing things to fit our own desires, with no consideration that any of the other people in the conversation are human, or might be able to act or say anything without our prompting. Someone even had a vote to telepathically tell Madoka and Sayaka to hug her, as if they were incapable of doing anything without our puppeteering.

We can certainly explain about Kyuubey when it's actually an appropriate conversation topic. If she asks for details, Sabrina (or anyone else) can explain things. But it is not the question she has right now, nor is it an appropriate answer to anything being discussed at the moment.

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My general answer to your concerns is that we want to be open about the full truth to Hitomi. If this were a conversation in real time, then there would be a back and forth of questions and answers and so forth. But this is a quest where we have to anticipate how the conversation is going to move in the next few minutes and come up with all of the conversation topics that will need to be covered in that time. So it may feel like we're trying to dominate the conversation, but really we're just trying to plan ahead and make sure that we cover all of the points that need to be covered (otherwise the updates would be even shorter than they already are).

Incidentally, I totally agree with you that telepathically asking Madoka or Sayaka to hug Hitomi is too much.

As to some more specific concerns: Hitomi directly asked us why she and Madoka and Sayaka are involved. The direct answer to that question is: "Kyuubey dragged in Madoka and Sayaka. We brought you in since you are their friend." So the discussion about Kyuubey is immediately relevant since it is the answer to Hitomi's question, and it's also necessary to discuss his deceptive tendencies because that explains why Kyuubey trying to contract Madoka and Sayaka is a bad thing.

Telling Hitomi about witches is also immediately relevant, because it's the clearest way to show the cost that is paid by meguca to get their power. And the information about witches is particularly relevant for Hitomi and it is time sensitive since (in canon) Hitomi was attacked by a witch around this time. We're going to try to prevent that (of course), but if we miss it or if Hitomi gets dragged in by another witch, then we want her to be aware of it so that she can call us for help.

 

[Torgamous]

Telling Hitomi about witches is also immediately relevant, because it's the clearest way to show the cost that is paid by meguca to get their power.

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I think you're underestimating the lichbomb here. The soul not being in your body is apparently a super big deal in Japan. Remember how Sayaka took to combat like a duck to water, but after the lichbomb fell apart like a duck in a woodchipper?

Not opposed to telling her about witches (aside from as a direct answer to her question), just saying she's already figuring that being meduka is not for youka.

And the information about witches is particularly relevant for Hitomi and it is time sensitive since (in canon) Hitomi was attacked by a witch around this time. We're going to try to prevent that (of course), but if we miss it or if Hitomi gets dragged in by another witch, then we want her to be aware of it so that she can call us for help.

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Nothing about that scene inspires much confidence in her willingness to call us if that happens. We do not want to act as if she will. In order to be sure she isn't attacked we're going to need to implement measures that would make a call superfluous.

 

[Gadjo]

I think you're underestimating the lichbomb here. The soul not being in your body is apparently a super big deal in Japan. Remember how Sayaka took to combat like a duck to water, but after the lichbomb fell apart like a duck in a woodchipper?

Not opposed to telling her about witches (aside from as a direct answer to her question), just saying she's already figuring that being meduka is not for youka.

Nothing about that scene inspires much confidence in her willingness to call us if that happens. We do not want to act as if she will. In order to be sure she isn't attacked we're going to need to implement measures that would make a call superfluous.

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Telling her about the lichbomb is useful as a deterrent. It will make her sad, to be sure, but this is a conversation about a sad, messed-up thing. Hiding these things from her only serves to give us more to do later, since we need to tell her eventually anyway.

Also, telling her about what it's like to encounter a witch might not accomplish much, but there's no reason not to tell her. It just might help, and it does no harm, so I don't see why we shouldn't talk about it.

 

[Torgamous]

Telling her about the lichbomb is useful as a deterrent. It will make her sad, to be sure, but this is a conversation about a sad, messed-up thing. Hiding these things from her only serves to give us more to do later, since we need to tell her eventually anyway.

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We told her this in the last update.

 

[Gadjo]

We told her this in the last update.

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Oh, right. I thought you were arguing against telling her that and got a little lost.

Point is, the souls thing is important, and a bit of a blow, but that's no reason not to bring up the rest of the pertinent information.

 

[Onmur]

[X] Kinematics

Vote tally:
##### 3.19
[x]Madoka and Sayaka came across me when I was...really sick in an alleyway. That's when I made my contract...I didn't have much choice in the matter.
[x]Let Madoka and Sayaka explain how they got involved.
No. of votes: 2
universalperson, Drasis

[x] You're not special. Madoka and Sayaka, on the other hand, are on the list for getting their souls torn out.
No. of votes: 1
Aranfan

[X] Madoka and Sayaka actually pre-date me.
[X] The terribleness is mainly fighting witches - human-eating monsters. Most magical girls don't live long.
[X] And you...Well, it has been getting annoying to toe around conversation topics.
[X] More importantly, your arm is hurt. May we heal it?
No. of votes: 1
'Lement

[x] Jackercracks
No. of votes: 1
Redshirt Army

[X] Well, at the core of things it's because we're their friends -- your friends, too, if you'll let us.
-[X] I can't speak for Mami and Homura, but Madoka and Sayaka found me dying -- not as a magical girl, but just a girl. I was in a pretty bad way, I won't gross you out with the details, but despite that they stayed with me and tried to help me. Hell, when Kyubey tried to get Madoka to contract to save my life, for a moment there I was worried she'd actually do it. Since then, after I contracted, they've been the best friends a girl could ask for, and it's meant a lot to me.
--[X] Of course, that's why it's important you know the whole of this rotten system -- Kyubey likes to get his contracts however he can, and the best way to keep from falling prey is knowing what he's really up to with 'em. Remember how I said he tried to get Madoka to contract? Well, he did that even though me making a contract with him would have saved my life anyways -- and as a matter of fact, it did.
---[X] So, we want you guys to at least be aware of what's up with it all, because we care about you guys; you're our friends, and that's absolutely nothing to do with all the magic in the world.
----[X] Beyond that, though, another reason we wanted to tell you about all this is that, well . . . there are at least a few perks to being a magical girl, even if they're kinda outweighed by the, well -- *rub Soul Gem noticeably* -- but one of them's healing. Part of why we wanted to let you know is that we were thinking of possibly trying to heal you, maybe Kyousuke too, with your permission.
No. of votes: 2
Gadjo, Ugolino

[X] Well, at the core of things it's because we're their friends -- your friends, too, if you'll let us.
-[X] I can't speak for Mami and Homura, but Madoka and Sayaka found me dying -- not as a magical girl, but just a girl. I was in a pretty bad way, I won't gross you out with the details, but despite that they stayed with me and tried to help me. Hell, when Kyubey tried to get Madoka to contract to save my life, for a moment there I was worried she'd actually do it. Since then, after I contracted, they've been the best friends a girl could ask for, and it's meant a lot to me.
--[X] Of course, that's why it's important to know the whole of this rotten system -- Kyubey likes to get his contracts however he can, and the best way to keep from falling prey is knowing what he's really up to with 'em. Remember how I said he tried to get Madoka to contract? Well, he did that even though me making a contract with him would have saved my life anyways -- and as a matter of fact, it did.
---[X] So, we want you guys to at least be aware of what's up with it all, because we care about you guys; you're our friends, and that's absolutely nothing to do with all the magic in the world.
----[X] Beyond that, though, another reason we wanted to tell you about all this is that, well . . . there are at least a few perks to being a magical girl, even if they're kinda outweighed by the, well -- *rub Soul Gem noticeably* -- but one of them's healing. Part of why we wanted to let you know is that we were thinking of possibly trying to heal you, maybe Kyousuke too, with your permission.
No. of votes: 2
Baroque, noahgab1133

[x] Being normal isn't enough to protect people from the monsters in the world. It's better if you know:
-[x] Unexplained suicides, murders, and disappearances are often caused by reality-warping, despair-inducing monsters called witches.
-[x] Magical girls like us fight witches. We're really powerful, so it's relatively safe for us (especially when we work together), but there's always a risk of injury or even death.
-[x] Witches can only be seen by some, but they try to kill everyone.
-[x] Warn her to be wary of sudden unexpected surges of depression - it probably means a witch is near - call us immediately.
-[x] Kyuubey talked to Madoka and Sayaka and tried to get them to make a contract. They chose not to, and that's good, but along the way they became our friends. And we've seen that it's awkward for them to be keeping secrets from you, so we wanted to let you know.
-[x] Try to measure Hitomi's potential with our senses. Also check if Hitomi can see a grief marble and if we can telepathically contact her.
--[x] If Hitomi doesn't appear to have potential: she should be grateful, she's probably not at risk from Kyuubey contracting her.
--[x] If she does have potential: watch out for Kyuubey.
[x] Kyuubey's offer is one wish in return for becoming a magical girl and fighting witches. It's usually not worth the cost - most who make a wish end up regretting it. In our case and in Mami's case, we were dying when we made a contract, so it was worth it - but Kyuubey still hid the details from us.
-[x] One detail that he hid before the contract: magic usage or negative emotions cause grief to accumulate in the soul gem, which (if not cleansed) leads to emotional instability and eventually death. Though our particular powers makes this a non-issue in our immediate vicinity.
-[x] But magic can also be very beneficial: healing for example.
--[x] Offer to heal Hitomi's broken arm.
--[x] Mention the possibility of healing Kyousuke.
No. of votes: 1
boonerunner

[X] Madoka and Sayaka were approached by Kyubey - that's the thing that offers contacts - because they have the potential. That's how they became involved. We had to make sure they were informed of the downsides, because Kyubey conveniently doesn't bother to mention any of the downsides.
[X] Kyubey prefers to keep magic a secret, but the five of us don't like keeping secrets from friends. Sorry for not telling you sooner.
[X] Besides, although it had a very high price, magic can do incredible things. It should be possible to heal Kyouske, or yourself.
No. of votes: 1
SynchronizedWritersBlock

[x]Madoka and Sayaka came across me when I was...really sick in an alleyway. That's when I made my contract...I didn't have much choice in the matter.
[x]Let Madoka and Sayaka explain how they got involved.
[X] Kyubey prefers to keep magic, and its downsides, a secret, but the five of us don't like keeping secrets from friends. Sorry for not telling you sooner.
[X] Besides, although it had a very high price, magic can do incredible things. It should be possible for us to heal Kyousuke or yourself, with a little work.
No. of votes: 1
Higure

[x] Madoka and Sayaka kind of got dragged into it by accident. That's how they met Mami.
[x] Then I met them due to circumstances around when I arrived here.
[x] And Homura met Mami earlier, and... well, lots of things have happened that tied us all together.
[x] The important thing, though, is that through all of this, you've never really been directly affected, so we've been trying to avoid dragging you into the mess that is the magical girl world.
[x] However it's not fair to them, or to you, to constantly have to tiptoe around this massive secret. You're their friend â€" our friend â€" which means we don't want to hide things from you.
[x] This isn't a recruitment speech or anything; we're not trying to drag you into being a magical girl. This is just us coming clean about some of the issues that a friend should know about.
[x] Help answer any questions she might have (though let the others take the lead where appropriate, rather than dominating the conversation), with the understanding that we're still wanting to visit Kyousuke before dinner.
No. of votes: 2
Kinematics, Torgamous

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[Firnagzen]

Plate Armor (under our coat)

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Pretty cool, we can do armor and rock the coat at the same time.

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Approximate visual reference:

(Not exactly right -among other things, no gasmask, and you have armoured pants too, but it gets you in the same ballpark.)

Actually, @Firnagzen, do our passive sensing abilities let us see Hitomi's potential (compared to Sayaka and Madoka), or would that require an active vote?

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When I wrote 'ephemeral shades of Grief' waaay back when, I meant it - it's very vague. There, but barely noticeable.

@Firnagzen Can we get an exact wording on Madoka's wish last loop? We need to know whether she simply wished for 'everything to be fixed' or wished for someone to come and fix everything.

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Try asking Homura. If you can convince her to tell you.

@Ugolino
Chill. Not over the line yet, but relax.

 

[CompassJimbo]

Try asking Homura. If you can convince her to tell you.

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I'll save that for when we stock up, then. Maybe persuade her to raid local military bases, too. MLRS batteries sound nice.

 

[boonerunner]

I think you're underestimating the lichbomb here. The soul not being in your body is apparently a super big deal in Japan. Remember how Sayaka took to combat like a duck to water, but after the lichbomb fell apart like a duck in a woodchipper?

Not opposed to telling her about witches (aside from as a direct answer to her question), just saying she's already figuring that being meduka is not for youka.

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One of the questions that Hitomi is almost certain to ask is: "What is the point - why do meguca exist?" The long answer involves the witchbomb, and we're not going to go there at the moment, but the short answer is that we fight witches. So we should either be prepared to answer this question clearly, or else preempt the question. I would prefer to preempt it, honestly.

Nothing about that scene inspires much confidence in her willingness to call us if that happens. We do not want to act as if she will. In order to be sure she isn't attacked we're going to need to implement measures that would make a call superfluous.

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I fully agree. But it's possible that being forewarned would make her more resilient or more aware of a witch's influence. It's even possible that being aware that witches exist is what allows someone (even someone with only a tiny bit of potential like Hitomi) to perceive witches and to see their effects. At any rate, it can't hurt, and it might help, so I want to make sure that we tell Hitomi about witches and the sooner the better.

 

[Kinematics]

My general answer to your concerns is that we want to be open about the full truth to Hitomi.

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I'm not disagreeing with that. Basically, there's no question she could ask (other than things touching on the witchbomb) that we should be holding back about.

But this is a quest where we have to anticipate how the conversation is going to move in the next few minutes and come up with all of the conversation topics that will need to be covered in that time.

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Sort of. We can anticipate some things, but there are others where anticipating it gets superfluous. Hitomi is likely to start asking questions about magical girls once she's calmed down started to get a handle on the situation, and we should be ready to answer them, but there is nothing she can ask that should require elaborate preparation. Simply being ready to answer questions as they come up should be all that's necessary at this point. If it's a particularly difficult question, Firn will just put in an interrupt.

Further, there's nothing she can ask that should require Sabrina be the one to answer. She's Madoka and Sayaka's friend before she is Sabrina's; they are the ones most concerned about her and affected by the current situation. Allowing them to be the ones to answer her questions is considerate and polite. We can always add in clarifications if necessary.

So it may feel like we're trying to dominate the conversation, but really we're just trying to plan ahead and make sure that we cover all of the points that need to be covered (otherwise the updates would be even shorter than they already are).

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I'd disagree. The suggested approach is definitely about dominating the conversation, not merely planning for it. Again, there is nothing about the magical girl side of things that demands that Sabrina be the primary actor. Further, most of those discussion points are, frankly, stuff that feels like it should be happening off-screen at this point. This will be, what, the third time we have to go through the same thing? It's redundant to the story, and doesn't really promote progress on anything in particular.

At the same time, letting Madoka and Sayaka talk about this I think is a good thing. Let them switch from being the ones who had to have everything told to them, to being the ones explaining things to their friends. It's a different mindset, and mentally healthy.

As to some more specific concerns: Hitomi directly asked us why she and Madoka and Sayaka are involved. The direct answer to that question is: "Kyuubey dragged in Madoka and Sayaka. We brought you in since you are their friend."

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Technically correct, but woefully incomplete. It's a much longer story. Plus, from Madoka and Sayaka's reactions thus far, they want to be able to talk to Hitomi about all this. And this is their story.

Have you ever had to deal with someone who, whenever you started telling a story to another person, interrupted and told their own version of events, such that you never got to tell your own side of things? Even if you try explaining more about it later, what's the point? Half the story has already been told, the ending already spoiled. It's irritating and obnoxious.

I don't want to be that person.

So the discussion about Kyuubey is immediately relevant since it is the answer to Hitomi's question, and it's also necessary to discuss his deceptive tendencies because that explains why Kyuubey trying to contract Madoka and Sayaka is a bad thing.

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You're conflating the idea that something must be known, with the idea that something must be known right now. Kyuubey and the witches and whatnot are important to discuss. They're just not important to discuss until we get past the initial revelation phase, possibly smooth over relations between Hitomi and Sayaka and Madoka, and generally come to grips with the new information.

And the information about witches is particularly relevant for Hitomi and it is time sensitive since (in canon) Hitomi was attacked by a witch around this time. We're going to try to prevent that (of course), but if we miss it or if Hitomi gets dragged in by another witch, then we want her to be aware of it so that she can call us for help.

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This assumes that there is no one else in the group that is concerned with Hitomi's well-being. Hitomi might not be joining us for dinner (I think? I don't remember if she had to decline). Do you think Sayaka is going to let Hitomi just go back home by herself now? To let her remain ignorant of the details of the situation, given what Sayaka herself learned just recently?

Sayaka feels a heavy obligation towards Hitomi right now. I think it's likely that being allowed to be the one to discuss matters with her will be something Sayaka would appreciate.

This particular pattern isn't guaranteed, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if Sayaka took Hitomi aside for a bit in the hospital, or went home with her rather than joining us for dinner. It gives Sayaka an outlet for working through her own issues with Hitomi, which is another thing that we've been trying to figure out how to deal with.

Anyway, the point of all that is that, while we can supply information as needed, there is nothing about the current situation that would seem to warrant actively controlling the course of the conversation beyond setting things up for open discourse.

 

[Ugolino]

Again, this is avoiding saying things for its own sake with no actual benefit and/or voting to just [q]Stand around. Putting it off doesn't add anything since it won't get said by us anyway if the situation makes that unviable.- ie: there's no reason not to have a clause to do it.

And you don't want to "spoil the story"...when that story is vital information that neither will feel enthusiastic about being shoved into the spotlight for. Right.

Hoping that Sayaka will talk about her problems, that Madoka will speak up, that Hitomi will hear about exactly the right things in just enough detail with us being a show window dummy standing on the sidelines the whole time is playing Russian roulette with the quest's future when our one and only job is to fix everything. That is the kind of person we should be and the only approach that makes sense in this quest.

"But it involves taking action" is in no way a legitimate argument not to do something.

 

[Gadjo]

So wait, Kine: what exactly are you advocating again? We would like to tell Hitomi the situation, as understood by Mami. Nothing more, nothing less. I get that we may be going a little fast, but that's no reason not to start saying these things now. We want to make sure all pertinent information gets across, so we're telling her. What's wrong with that?

 

[Ugolino]

So wait, Kine: what exactly are you advocating again? We would like to tell Hitomi the situation, as understood by Mami. Nothing more, nothing less. I get that we may be going a little fast, but that's no reason not to start saying these things now. We want to make sure all pertinent information gets across, so we're telling her. What's wrong with that?

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Absolutely nothing at all.

There is no actual reason to avoid intervening and fixing things when that is our mission statement, sole purpose, and only way to actually get what we want done. Delaying doesn't help at all, especially in the absence of any actual attempts to nudge things to happen the way they need to. Madoka and Sayaka aren't mind readers.

 

[Kinematics]

[X] Well, at the core of things it's because we're their friends -- your friends, too, if you'll let us.
-[X] I can't speak for Mami and Homura, but Madoka and Sayaka found me dying -- not as a magical girl, but just a girl. I was in a pretty bad way, I won't gross you out with the details, but despite that they stayed with me and tried to help me. Hell, when Kyubey tried to get Madoka to contract to save my life, for a moment there I was worried she'd actually do it. Since then, after I contracted, they've been the best friends a girl could ask for, and it's meant a lot to me.

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Couple other points to make to you, Gadjo:

1) The first line — "if you'll let us" — just feels wrong. That's the sort of thing you say to someone you don't know, or who isn't your friend. Saying that says that right now we don't consider ourselves friends with Hitomi. Using "us" implies that you're speaking for the entire group, which thus implies that we don't think that Madoka and Sayaka are her friends right now either.

2) The second line turns the question from one about Sayaka and Madoka, to one about Sabrina, her troubles, saving her life, etc, etc. The "It's all about me" viewpoint on the world. It even skips right past addressing the issue of her concerns about Sayaka and Madoka, instead leading in with references to Mami and Homura, who weren't even relevant to the question.

I'll take the last bit back; the objection is a bit more complicated than that, and the above doesn't quite explain it properly.

 

[Sereg]

If his best equipment said "too high to measure", then he should have made better equipment or requested better equipment from home or stopped. If getting better equipment would take a long time (and he didn't want to lose the possibility of a contract), then he should have stuck Madoka into stasis or something. Proceeding with contracting given his lack of information was risky beyond belief. And indeed the situation with Madokami ended up severely hurting the incubators in the long run (though losing energy from witchouts was a lot less of a penalty than what could have happened).

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From what we've seen of how Incubators operate, they would already be using the best equipment that they are capable of making. Anything better would be stuff they don't know is possible. They are very dedicated to improvement.

[X] Madoka and Sayaka were approached by Kyubey - that's the thing that offers contacts - because they have the potential. That's how they became involved. We had to make sure they were informed of the downsides, because Kyubey conveniently doesn't bother to mention any of the downsides.
-[x] Kyubey is not on our side and will trick people into making contracts.
[X] Kyubey prefers to keep magic a secret, but the five of us don't like keeping secrets from friends. Sorry for not telling you sooner.
[X] Besides, although it had a very high price, magic can do incredible things. It should be possible to heal Kyouske, or yourself.

How's this for reducing the whitewashing while still keeping things simple?

 

[Ugolino]

Couple other points to make to you, Gadjo:

1) The first line — "if you'll let us" — just feels wrong. That's the sort of thing you say to someone you don't know, or who isn't your friend. Saying that says that right now we don't consider ourselves friends with Hitomi. Using "us" implies that you're speaking for the entire group, which thus implies that we don't think that Madoka and Sayaka are her friends right now either.

2) The second line turns the question from one about Sayaka and Madoka, to one about Sabrina, her troubles, saving her life, etc, etc. The "It's all about me" viewpoint on the world. It even skips right past addressing the issue of her concerns about Sayaka and Madoka, instead leading in with references to Mami and Homura, who weren't even relevant to the question.

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1. We aren't friends with Hitomi so much as "friend of a friend" and acquaintances. That makes complete sense, and I think the "us" refers to the royal we there.

2. It hints at Madoka wishing to contract and explains how we got involved. It's somewhat flawed but works.

From what we've seen of how Incubator's operate, they would already be using the best equipment that they are capable of making. Anything better would be stuff they don't know is possible. They are very dedicated to improvement.

[X] Madoka and Sayaka were approached by Kyubey - that's the thing that offers contacts - because they have the potential. That's how they became involved. We had to make sure they were informed of the downsides, because Kyubey conveniently doesn't bother to mention any of the downsides.
-[x] Kyubey is not on our side and will trick people into making contracts.
[X] Kyubey prefers to keep magic a secret, but the five of us don't like keeping secrets from friends. Sorry for not telling you sooner.
[X] Besides, although it had a very high price, magic can do incredible things. It should be possible to heal Kyouske, or yourself.

How's this for reducing the whitewashing while still keeping things simple?

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Much better than the previous version.

 

[Muramasa]

@Kinematics

Don't have any major issues with your vote but I would like to bring up the healing this update if we can.

 

[AuraTwilight]

[x] Kinematics.

A lot of this arguing seems to be phrasing over points, I think we can chill out. Also, yea, mention healing.

 

[Kinematics]

@Kinematics

Don't have any major issues with your vote but I would like to bring up the healing this update if we can.

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Do you mean bring up the fact that we were going to try to heal Kyousuke with Hitomi? (ie: sort of the tail end of the point about not taking too long talking since we wanted to visit Kyousuke) Or that you wanted to get to the point of talking about healing Kyousuke with Kyousuke himself (ie: actually make it into the hospital by the end)?

 

[Muramasa]

Do you mean bring up the fact that we were going to try to heal Kyousuke with Hitomi? (ie: sort of the tail end of the point about not taking too long talking since we wanted to visit Kyousuke) Or that you wanted to get to the point of talking about healing Kyousuke with Kyousuke himself (ie: actually make it into the hospital by the end)?

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Just mentioning to Hitomi that we want to heal her arm and Kyousuke's hand if time permits us to do so. I'd be satisfied with that.