Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
Please tell me you're talking about carefully managed, consensus-driven legal reforms.
I have to say that I assumed letting some of the governance be handled by other factions would mean less micromanaging, not more. Not quite sure how we ended up where we did.
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
A faction which:
-monopolized our administration and making it de facto hereditary
-abused our penal system to introduce de facto slavery
-threatened civil war
Gee, I wonder why!
As for "trying" Distribute Land, the problem is that this would be opening Pandora's Box. If we do this, the Patricians can take that action on their own. As it is, we already do know enough about DL: We know it is a road to privatization of land and feudalism, we know it will establish the Patricians more in their lands, and we know that is why the Patricians want it. Those are all by themselves pretty good reasons not to take it.
I mean sure, the Chinese systems looks like it was nice. But then, so is our system. It is in many ways in fact superior. So "but China" is no argument to me.
No, things HAVE been getting worse. We shifted from non-hereditary elites to quasi-hereditary elites to hereditary elites. That wasn't just an issue of illustrating the mess in updates, but cold, raw front page data. And then there is the issue of standing of women in our society. These days it's all "but heroines don't count, divinely touched etc", whereas back in the day there wasn't a single comment about Magwyna being special. That interlude story of our traders in Trelli - one of them was a woman, who used to fight in the Red Banner, and the fact that she was a woman wasn't worth a comment. Compare that to AN's later description about how trading families work (hint: The men run the business). Or even earlier, our troops being described as "the villages' boys and strongest girls" and so on. I doubt our banners still have any women except truly exceptional ones.
In terms of gender equality and social mobility we have taken huge hits over the centuries.
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
By refusing to actually let them have independent governance, which most likely requires DL to start down.
- Location
- Illinois
Traders have threatened civil war before, the Guilds are currently threatening to shut down the entire economy, and I shudder to imagine what they Yeomen or Urban poor might threaten in the future.
Factions can be dicks. It's really not a surprise.
Doesn't mean that we should take it personally.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Its because like I've been saying repeatedly(I think this is the seventh time
), this is not how its going to be going forward. AN even confirmed this in an answer to Abby where he said "getting all of this over with quickly" basically. We have to get all of this out of the way first and then we return to regularly scheduled programming where we just have a set of Secondaries and the King Agenda to assign every turn.
- Location
- Canada
It has been done
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
And we didn't give in to Trader demands. So why should we appease the Patricians now? Nobody is saying the Patricians are the ultimate evil or something (though I would say they are extra dickish, what with needing a suppressing action and being so petty), it's just that they are being dickish right now and hence we should act accordingly.
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
Government Expansion due to development of existing land or acquiring new land --> Needs more clerks reading law and counting sum --> Get more clerks from Traders, Guilds, Yeoman --> Varying standards and errors found --> Set up standards and spread via temple or library --> Tests
Distribute Land --> Development of Land Ownership --> Widespread land ownership across farmers to scholars --> Farmers wants to move up the social ladder and thus funds his son's education --> Son goes to Exam
Which is ??? --> Black Box --> Profit.
The faction that works with Guild, Traders, and Yeoman to abuse half exile system, but got blamed for it solely. Pray tell an administration system that does not rely on hereditary in ancient world. Traders also threatened a civil war, Yeoman also nearly caused civil war. Sure you do you.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Hmm. Good point, I'd forgotten about that.
- Location
- Canada
Thank you! This argument has been dragging on in cyclical fashion for long enough.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I think this is Ymaryn culture as a whole more than this specific faction, though. That is, I don't think a coup would fix this. Fracturing might be able to if we discarded the right things? The big problem with fracturing is that one of the resultant polities will likely end up with Ymaryn tech while losing Life of Arete and either using slaves or abusing the half-exile system, which would give them dramatically cheaper actions that are nearly as effective as our current ones and hence let them out compete any other splinters that don't have those advantages. So we'd either be that faction and lose our social advances or we'd be squeezed out by them.
People have definitely come close to saying Patricians are the ultimate evil. Someone was talking about them threatening civil war because they couldn't sadistically whip a hundred slaves a day.
Last edited:
- Location
- Canada
Magwyna came with a -1 stability loss to make her queen and she became noticed over her heroic admin and heroic diplomacy abilties. In fact I don't think we ever had a regular female queen, they were all heroes hence why they are referred to as exceptions or having extra spirits so their not technically women. I mean we restricted power through the usage of meritocracy so its natural our elites would've restricted access to it unless we were actively increasing it thus making their attempts nothing null and void.
Last edited:
Wiadi
Uncompromising Radical Leftist
- Location
- Something Clever
- Pronouns
- She/Her
First point is the opposite of accurate - Distribute Land doesn't add to the land we control, it just delegates that control to more people, lowering standardization and central-government clerk needs.
Second point is likewise backwards. Distribute Land will not encourage social mobility, it will lower it, by giving the already-powerful families another axis along which to consolidate power.
Its because like I've been saying repeatedly(I think this is the seventh time
Getting all of what over with?
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
Because only the Patricians are throwing a bitchfest over the reform! Right now, the traders and yeomen are in line, but the Patricians are so friggen out of line that it's no wonder guillotine jokes were made! That's all there is to it!
That was because we didn't make the more popular guy King, though. And yes, mechanically she was a hero, but nobody made comments about her being exceptional, or her only being able to be King because she is divinely touched or whatever. Her being female simply wasn't worth a comment; she could run just like any other influential person, with no barriers. And then there is that trader and ex-soldier in Trelli. Again, that was totally normal.
It simply is so that we have slipped massively on the gender equality front.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The repeated actions and taking actions vote stuff that we just did.
Did you forget about the Guilds?
Last edited:
- Location
- Canada
I don't mind the Freehills failing to conquer the Tin Tribes but I do mind them falling to a new power which won't be as friendly or close to us.
The Tin Tribes were a statement but AN hinted at other powers beyond the straits sensing weakness which we want to avoid.
Saffron Isles taking over the straits would be horrible for the region not good. If the Freehills were going to be fine than I wouldn't care but if AN is recommending we stay on Offensive policy to help them out? Sounds like they will be near death if they get hit on two to three fronts. Right now we have a friendly civ that we have strong trade and diplomatic ties to about to pounced on all sides.
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
You are assuming that land under distribute land doesn't require clerks to manage, which is strange; i don't think Patricians have magic wand that do "more productivity" and poof land spills more food. So it is logistical to think that Patricians will get more people to work and manage that land while under the purview of the law. So effectively we are creating more positions that requires read and writing, even if those are not government jobs. Do you really think Patricians will hire clerks that gives lower quality paperwork or results?
This is yet to be proven as we did not do DL even once, nor did we get IC information or narratives support for or against.
Astra Stargazer
Comma Queen
- Location
- In a book, somewhere around here...
What the patricians need is reformation, of a peaceful sort, which we can do with some educational and administrative improvements.
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
The Guilds' demand doesn't threaten to completely tear apart our society's structure. It's doable.
- Location
- Canada
Everyone made comments about her being exceptional and a woman its how she became noticed. There were barriers to a woman running for Kingship its how we never had any average female rulers. The more popular choice was a male who half of our provinces wanted to be King and thought a woman was not able to rule. It was only Valleyhome, Redshore and Sacred Forest that didn't mind her rising to power. That trader was a woman who was a part of the Red Banner and that was only a few hundred years ago, I'm positive we still have some female messengers in our merc companies. I mean I think your projecting values we never really had onto our civ. That women were a part of our Red Banner was because only women were able to ride those horses. Our gender equality was good but it was never at the level your describing it to be.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
We don't have the luxury of deciding our actions based on proof. Reasonable arguments about their effects are the most we can consistently rely on. Insisting on more than that would trap us in indecision or have us walk into every trap.
It absolutely does threaten that; urbanization is dangerous. They're also threatening something just as bad if we don't comply. It's definitely on par with the Patrician quest as it's a thing a large faction of voters were repeatedly insisting on not doing with an awful punishment if we don't do it. It's just not as large or vocal as the DL faction and people were already a bit fatigued on refusing quests from that. We also really can't afford to suppress both factions until they give up.
Last edited: