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Paths of Civilization

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BungieONI said:
You say we, but I want to. Looking to the future, I want a naval presence of around 4 so that we don't have to worry as much about hostilities on the sea. And this option gives us even more martial to help ensure we get to the win and can push through to the point that we can get the naval.

Also, in either case if we let the quest fail, the free negation is used and we are forced to deal with the next quest. Unless you mean something different, because you are not being very clear with this part.
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I don't know if we're going to have an action to burn on More Warships, and 6 Wealth is a lot when we're in the middle of Mass Levy + Great Dam. I really want Naval, but I don't know that we can afford it right now, especially since every conflict we're part of is entirely land-based.

As for the failed quest: as I understand it, if we choose support faction with Re-roll, the traders just get a new quest. They don't fail the last one, so there's no wasted negate, the traders simply decide they want something other than Naval right now.
 
VoidZero said:
A Triple Entente so to speak?
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Yep.

They supply the ore and other resources, we send out high level finished goods in larger quantities than they can, which then can be used to expand further, giving them more resources to send out to be processed, and so on. So long as we keep expanding our industry over time, we'll be promoting their expansion, as well as keeping them peaceful.
 
Citino said:
Yep.

They supply the ore and other resources, we send out high level finished goods in larger quantities than they can, which then can be used to expand further, giving them more resources to send out to be processed, and so on. So long as we keep expanding our industry over time, we'll be promoting their expansion, as well as keeping them peaceful.
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Peaceful toward us.

I hope we do build a lasting relationship, but you never know what will change in the future.
 
Citino said:
Yep.

They supply the ore and other resources, we send out high level finished goods in larger quantities than they can, which then can be used to expand further, giving them more resources to send out to be processed, and so on. So long as we keep expanding our industry over time, we'll be promoting their expansion, as well as keeping them peaceful.
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And then when they collapse from all the over expansion the remaining should lack the industry to challenge us.
 
[X] [Hero] Both the War Chief and the Governor of MoS are Heroic Martial
[X] [Target] Split focus between the Forhuch and Highlanders, hold against the nomads

[X] [Traders] Support Faction for a new faction quest (Patricians will not switch support immediately)

[X] [React] Sec Proclaim Glory
[X] [Kick] No further kick

Umi-san said:
切りなきゃ。
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?
 
Citino said:
Yep.

They supply the ore and other resources, we send out high level finished goods in larger quantities than they can, which then can be used to expand further, giving them more resources to send out to be processed, and so on. So long as we keep expanding our industry over time, we'll be promoting their expansion, as well as keeping them peaceful.
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Peaceful to us, that is. I am sure people to the south and the west will not like Ymaryn-iron supplied armies.
 
[X] [Hero] Both the War Chief and the Governor of MoS are Heroic Martial
[X] [Target] Split focus between the Forhuch and Highlanders, hold against the nomads
[X] [Traders] Support Faction for a new faction quest (Patricians will not switch support immediately)
[X] [React] Sec Support Sacred Orders
[X] [React] Sec Proclaim Glory
[X] [Kick] No further kick

Can we please get two heroes rather than a genius? Every genius we've had so far has been mentally unstable. Two heroes would be much better. Also, I'm worried that if we don't do anything about the Highlanders, they'll finish crushing the Harmurri before we finish fighting the Forhuch.
 
Timewinders said:
Can we please get two heroes rather than a genius? Every genius we've had so far has been mentally unstable. Two heroes would be much better. Also, I'm worried that if we don't do anything about the Highlanders, they'll finish crushing the Harmurri before we finish fighting the Forhuch.
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AN rolls for stability of geniuses, but the option mentions that the king will be at least semi-stable.
 
[X][Hero] The War Chief is an Avatar of War (Genius Martial, at least semi-stable Diplo and Admin)
[X][Target] Focus everything on the Forhuch, hold the line against the nomads
[X][React] Sec Proclaim Glory
[X][Traders] Support Faction for an extra turn (Patricians will switch support to Yeomen immediately)

I'm curious as to whether or not this will effect lord's loyalty.
 
Why would we go with [][Traders] Support Faction for a new faction quest (Patricians will not switch support immediately) instead of [] [Traders] Support Faction for an extra turn (Patricians will switch support to Yeomen immediately)? I'm getting sleepy, can someone post the pros and cons for both Trader choices. I would prefer @veekie to give a solid analysis, but anyone else with a solid argument will do.
 
Marlin said:
Why would we go with [][Traders] Support Faction for a new faction quest (Patricians will not switch support immediately) instead of [] [Traders] Support Faction for an extra turn (Patricians will switch support to Yeomen immediately)? I'm getting sleepy, can someone post the pros and cons for both Trader choices. I would prefer @veekie to give a solid analysis, but anyone else with a solid argument will do.
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The new faction quest shifts from the expensive Naval quest to something more likely to be in line with what the war requires, while also boosting our innovation during a major war, something pretty useful since we are stressing our system pretty heavily here.

The extra turn option keeps the Naval quest, but it gives us +6 to martial right away, due to the Yeomen Power.
 
BungieONI said:
You say we, but I want to. Looking to the future, I want a naval presence of around 4 so that we don't have to worry as much about hostilities on the sea. And this option gives us even more martial to help ensure we get to the win and can push through to the point that we can get the naval.

Also, in either case if we let the quest fail, the free negation is used and we are forced to deal with the next quest. Unless you mean something different, because you are not being very clear with this part.
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BungieONI said:
Right, right now it's not a priority, nor is it something we can actually do. However I am trying to keep the future in mind after this war and set us up to get things I want done then, completed.
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I am fairly certain the quest fail negation is not being used, as this runs counter to how Support Faction works. It also just wouldn't make much sense mechanically, as we're essentially bribing them to stop caring about boats right now to help with the war effort. Of note, nowhere does it say that the current quest fails, just that we are using Support Faction to generate a new quest. We will almost certainly still have a free negation.

Thinking for the future is fine, and getting our Navy score up is a good long term goal. The question is whether or not forcing us to work on that right now for +1 Navy is worth it, which I think it is fairly obviously not since we need to avoid spending as much econ and wealth next turn as possible to avoid popping cities in the middle of Epic Age 2: Electric Boogaloo.

Marlin said:
Why would we go with [][Traders] Support Faction for a new faction quest (Patricians will not switch support immediately) instead of [] [Traders] Support Faction for an extra turn (Patricians will switch support to Yeomen immediately)? I'm getting sleepy, can someone post the pros and cons for both Trader choices. I would prefer @veekie to give a solid analysis, but anyone else with a solid argument will do.
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I have a post that discusses the pros and cons here, which veekie seems to agree with:

8bitBob said:
I want to discuss the trader vote.

Currently, the winning vote is:

[] [Traders] Support Faction for an extra turn (Patricians will switch support to Yeomen immediately)

I don't understand why people prefer this. The main advantage it grants is more martial, which, as a reminder of our current martial:

Martial 9/37 {85/39} Levy Overmax: Pay for it later

We currently have very little need for more temp martial. According to AN, having more won't be that detrimental, but that doesn't change the fact that we straight up don't need more martial at the moment.

The other advantage to this vote is that it allows us more time to complete the current Trader quest. Frankly, the quest is nice, but it's not mission critical to gain single extra point of Navy when all of our current problem are in the steppes or lowlands. We could better spend this wealth on a Support Sacred Order, or any number of other things like letting wealth overflow into Econ and preventing our cities from popping, which would tank our wealth income as markets go offline.

That leads me to our other option:

[] [Traders] Support Faction for a new faction quest (Patricians will not switch support immediately)

According to the update, the Traders are no longer pissed. I am assuming that means they will no longer generate a spite quest and are no longer suppressing our innovations. This gives us a chance to generate a new, more situation appropriate Trader quest from a happy faction at temp power of 8, while also greatly improving our chance of innovating warfare technologies. With a genius martial, this could easily lead to great leaps in tactics and warfare, or perhaps supporting a wartime economy.

This seems much more potentially valuable to me at the moment than 6 temp martial and a potential +1 free Navy (if we have the time for it) for boats we aren't using right now.
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bluefur87 said:
So, important things.

I require an omake from the perspective of our Vassal, ThunderHorse at the moment. Bonus points if the player base is all tsundere towards us.

If we manage to make it to fighting the HK and sweep in to save the day, I require an omake from the Harm too! Preferably from the viewpoint of someone playing the game like a Europa Universalis type set up and seeing we're coming in to save the day with an 80+ stack of martial.

These reactions. I need them. Please?
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I'll add it to the list.
 
Marlin said:
Why would we go with [][Traders] Support Faction for a new faction quest (Patricians will not switch support immediately) instead of [] [Traders] Support Faction for an extra turn (Patricians will switch support to Yeomen immediately)? I'm getting sleepy, can someone post the pros and cons for both Trader choices. I would prefer @veekie to give a solid analysis, but anyone else with a solid argument will do.
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Well, for starters we're actually getting the Patricians to invest in the war by supporting the faction for an extra turn. This means can translate to the patricians investing more of their personal money into the war so the Yeomanry will get more tools, or by training their kids, or even the Yeomanry kids in the ways of fighting better. The quest itself is also rather good long term, because we want that naval power.

*Insert horribly bias viewpoint of other option here that does a pitiful attempt at not being biased.*
 
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Marlin said:
I'm getting sleepy, can someone post the pros and cons for both Trader choices.
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Extra turn pros:
1) +6 Martial immediately
2) +1 Naval is worth quite a bit, we actually do want that long-term
2a) We can't really afford it right now. Giving us 2 extra turns to deal with it means we get it once the war is over
New Quest cons:
1) Could be a spite/negative quest (using up our free negation)
2) Could require something we can't afford during wartime
3) Is a mystery box

Extra turn cons:
1) Costs a lot to finish
2) Naval doesn't help us in the short-term
New Quest pros:
1) Could have a very useful quest reward
2) Is a mystery box
 
[X] [Hero] The governor is competent enough, but War Chief is the ideal general (Heroic Martial and Diplo leader)
[X] [Target] Split focus between the Forhuch and Highlanders, hold against the nomads

A heroic Diplo martial will have the skill and expertise to pick a solid commander and effective force to harass the Highlanders while he focuses on the turks. The fact that he's heroic Diplo and martial gives him a significant leg up against the enemy heroic King, and ensures that moral loss will be minimal on our side.

[X] [Traders] Support Faction for an extra turn (Patricians will switch support to Yeomen immediately)

[X] [React] Sec Proclaim Glory
[X] [React] Sec Palace Annex - Grand Hall
 
Janadus said:
I don't know if we're going to have an action to burn on More Warships, and 6 Wealth is a lot when we're in the middle of Mass Levy + Great Dam. I really want Naval, but I don't know that we can afford it right now, especially since every conflict we're part of is entirely land-based
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We know {S} War Missions activate 2 Martial and {M} War Missions likely active four. At that rate, considering we have 4 Main actions for the King and 3.5 for the Provinces, we could deploy about 30 Martial per turn. If we subtract the Secondary Martial we're getting from the Banner companies (who automatically deploy), we have 66 Martial.

We literally have so much that we can't even deploy half of it over the course of a turn where we do nothing but throw out War Missions. Being nervous about spending Econ or Wealth (especially Wealth) is pointless. We'd have to spend a ton in order to actually cut into our war making capacity. Considering that we're currently getting our Wealth topped up by trading Tech, being concerned about using it up is pointless; anything that we use will be regenerated very quickly. We have so much 'spare' Martial that we're not actually doing anything with it.

If anything, we want to consider ways we can desperately spend stats. Currently, for Mid-Turn, we're looking to take about 37-38 Stats in income; we only have a buffer of 15 before we start overflowing into Martial. We'll likely spend some stats between now and then, but we will be overflowing into Martial. That's not a bad thing considering we're in the middle of a war, but it could very easily cause problems as our everything overflows. Combined with Kings Do Not Kneel and the veterancy Martial we're likely to get, we could hit our primary Martial cap. We may be forced to eat a Gilded Age next turn just to spend some of our stats and cool down the economy; we're near the point of overheating and cooking off.

Stats are not the problem, squishing the Forhuch chieftain like the bug he is, that's our problem and that's a question of actions and luck which our stats can't do anything about.
 
Janadus said:
s for the failed quest: as I understand it, if we choose support faction with Re-roll, the traders just get a new quest. They don't fail the last one, so there's no wasted negate, the traders simply decide they want something other than Naval right now.
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Thanks for clarifying! I totally agree with this interpretation.

8bitBob said:
Thinking for the future is fine, and getting our Navy score up is a good long term goal. The question is whether or not forcing us to work on that right now for +1 Navy is worth it, which I think it is fairly obviously not since we need to avoid spending as much econ and wealth next turn as possible to avoid popping cities in the middle of Epic Age 2: Electric Boogaloo.
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Oh I agree :p. That's why I don't want to do it next turn, but the turn after at which point I think is where this support will put it. Trying to do it in the middle of Epic War 2: The Remix Tape is folly.
 
Just a reminder that both the Forhuch and the Northern Nomads have heroic martial leaders. We really don't want to leave either one of them to face off against a normal commander*.

*As opposed to [(Excellent, Genius), (Excellent, Hero), (Hero, Hero)].
 
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