Well, the previous discussion failed to convince me of your view, and other voters may be more open to reviewing their positions with new evidence. That you have no interest in the discussion is not, in fact, reason not to have it.
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
So we have 2 policies for infrastructure, one of which is doubled, another from the law, giving us at least 3 progress on any given turn.
1 policy for vassal support, 1 policy for defense, 1 policy for forestry, and 2 ??? policies.
We have two True cities IIRC, two Free cities? 2 +4 = 6 policies.
E: Artisan games give us 2 innovation rolls and grand dock gives us 1 ship innovation roll but they don't count in my mind.
1 policy for vassal support, 1 policy for defense, 1 policy for forestry, and 2 ??? policies.
We have two True cities IIRC, two Free cities? 2 +4 = 6 policies.
E: Artisan games give us 2 innovation rolls and grand dock gives us 1 ship innovation roll but they don't count in my mind.
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- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
Why is it non-doubled?
Cool, I am convinced.
[X] [Crisis] Bring them back in with the fighting (Change Tinriver from Trading Post to Colony, will claim
[X] [Secondary] War Mission-Pirates Clans
[X] [Secondary] Build Roads
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] Invite to Games - Freehills
[X] [Guild] Efficient Charcoal Kilns
[X] [Guild] Build Porcelain Works
Abby Normal
High Clerk of the Ymaryn
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Both of the "player" infrastructure policies are doubled, only the "auto" one from the law isn't, so we get 5 progress each turn right now.
We have 1 Vassal Support, 1 Defense, 1 Forestry, and 2 Infrastructure policies chosen, for a total of 5 player policies.
We currently have 4 active true cities: Valleyhome, blackmouth, redshore, and redhills. Free Cities count as true cities for most things.
We get passive policies from our economic system, Guild Mercantile, as shown on the civ sheet:
"Passive Policies: 1 + True Cities (includes Free Cities)"
That is, 5 total at the moment.
Then, one of the inherent benefits of Free Cities at our tech level (along with "remove base 1 econ/turn upkeep" and "remove the normal true city -1 high cent tolerance penalty") is that they give an additional passive policy according to their "AI", which seems to be mostly about the overall picture of the civ as a whole, but with a bit more focus on the cities themselves (i.e. they started out making baths and libraries for themselves, but also took some innovation policies and martial policies to benefit the overall civ)
Then, due to the choices we've made for megaprojects, we have 1 Infrastructure policy (from the Iron Age Law, which is not doubled by the law bonus like player-chosen infrastructure policies) and 1 innovation policy (from the Artisan Games, which does get the benefit from the AG, that being doubled innovation rolls at the cost of 1 wealth)
Balance? Its just what AN decided the benefit of the Iron Age Law (with "Community Health" Focus) should be:
"New effects: player chosen Infrastructure policies doubled (one action only for active policies), one additional passive infrastructure policy always active (effect not doubled), -1 Wealth each turn."
Edit: But yeah, i'll try to remember to add in passive policies to my infrastructure tracker next update.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
We don't have a narrative reason as to why the automatic infrastructure policy from Iron Law is non-doubled. I expect its that way for balance reasons.
Hmm... this law discussion just got me thinking. We'll likely need a Classical Law upgrade to account for the changes we've been making and will make in response to the Liquidity Crisis.
As a tangent, I wonder what level of social development we'd have to be to get other nations sending their kids to our academy once we build it.
Also you are missing a Main.
- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
Aaah, ty
I edited my post two minutes before you asked.
Folks, I count 26 categories, 10 of which we are leading or dominating in. With porcelain work, we are likely to dominate or lead in 46% of trade goods.
We are going to fast run out of thing to dominate and may likely come into other conflict with other polities for stealing all their trade dominance.
We are going to fast run out of thing to dominate and may likely come into other conflict with other polities for stealing all their trade dominance.
ExNihilo
SPACE!
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I am entirely fine with this.
We're very, very good at defense, and we gain a stability every time they're forced to give up.
Also, they'd have to come to us, which means we don't have to be nearly as concerned about logistics.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Crow dammit I knew that little voice in my head saying I missed something was right.
Beeeeeeeeeh.
Did you fix it?
ExNihilo
SPACE!
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Not yet. I'm bad at formatting, but I'll add a blurb by 6:30.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Nah I got it.
[X] [Crisis] Bring them back in with the fighting (Change Tinriver from Trading Post to Colony, will claim additional territory when fighting pirates, -1 Legitimacy)
[X] [Main] Proclaim Glory
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] War Mission - Pirate Clans
[X] [Secondary] Ironworks (Redshore)
[X] [Secondary] Invite to Games - Freehills
[X] [Guild] Efficient Charcoal Kilns
[X] [Guild] Efficient Charcoal Kilns x2
[X] [Main] Proclaim Glory
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] War Mission - Pirate Clans
[X] [Secondary] Ironworks (Redshore)
[X] [Secondary] Invite to Games - Freehills
[X] [Guild] Efficient Charcoal Kilns
[X] [Guild] Efficient Charcoal Kilns x2
Now that we are out of a crisis, let us analyze what we did wrong and right.
What we did right:
What we did right:
- Unlock intrigue.
- Chose subordinate reform.
- Use hunt troublemakers to find out more information about the crisis, preventing us from making decisions that put us further away from our goal.
- Focus on increasing our centralization.
- Made an unforced error based on misunderstanding about temp damage.
- Deliberately made the decision to save blackbird at the expense of starving the population.
- Built road when it didn't give us stability, however necessary roads are.
- Maybe made it harder on ourselves by picking panem. We were saved by subordinate reform and panem unlocked opportunities to upgrade an ironwork to level 2, and complete a really valuable quest.
- Building that observatory contributed to famine, but gave us a valuable quest.
Wiadi
Uncompromising Radical Leftist
- Location
- Something Clever
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[X] [Crisis] If they want to go play bandit they can get caught up along the way (-3 Martial, -1 Stability)
Seriously not sold on the whole "you can undermine royal authority if you do it for the right reasons" concept, especially in the context of self-interested violence.
Seriously not sold on the whole "you can undermine royal authority if you do it for the right reasons" concept, especially in the context of self-interested violence.
Carrnage
Human
- Location
- New Zealand
Or we grow tinriver and encircle them.
Naw, we already went over it. The nomads will get, but cannot keep the majority of the techs without our infrastructure. It means Nomads using case hardened steel, better bows, and getting a head start on horse techs mainly, as well as a bunch of tactics they can't use because they don't do infantry.
Pattern welded steel might show up for their elites, but without the entire logistics chain leading to the hammer mills, will never see bulk usage.
Meanwhile their location is entirely logistics suicide to hold. It's across the Black Sea then over the mountains. They are using Pioneering Spirit and a lack of centralized government to spread towards Europe like a fungus.
Taking them is orders of magnitude worse than taking Trell. We'd die from Lords Loyalty/Stewards kicking us.
We just rolled badly for them so far.
As far as I can tell GPs seem to be getting Palace Annex -1 level. Probably from using the Palace as a template, like AN said.
Mechanically it seems like it'd be a +50% to the urban population, since the Panem upkeep of urban population is 2 Econ, and Block Housing moves it to 3?New option, available thanks to the Panem status. I'm surprised it doesn't list "increased vulnerability to fire and disease", and i'm not sure if that means it doesn't make those worse or if it just doesn't show it... *ponder*
Also still not sure how the city priority list is affected by this, with the EE limit changes...
Still, seems pretty powerful, if expensive. As is, i think we would be better off avoiding it for now and "just" building up lv 1 stuff...if it weren't for the guild quest offering a full megaproject for free
That it allows us to double the number of gyms, Baths and Aqueducts is indicative that it probably is a giant disease/fire hazard. It was so for Rome, they only did that for Rome itself since they could feed the city with Egyptian grain
Seconded, but I actually feel Palace fortifications have value because they get propagated out to the Governor Palaces as well, which is important if we do pick up the Prototype Deployment idea, as Royal Guard units usually make fine demi-elites even if drawn from commoner stock.
Counter to that is maintaining Priests and Urban Poor at comparable power levels so the Factions can stay busy playing with each other. Patricians hate social mobility, while the Urban Poor love it(the Traders and Guilds don't really care, but they do trigger the Patricians when they get too rich) and the Priests currently favor the lower classes, with the upper classes being favored if they are nice to the lower classes. Get the Priests and Urban Poor to 4 and you'd be seeing the Patricians busy suppressing one or the other when there isn't an actual crisis.
We actually have more Navy than the pirates, otherwise we wouldn't be winning to the point that our randoms rogues actually can fight them and win.
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There are limited places at the top. Anyone unwilling to fight to stay on top won't BE on top. Not for long anyways.
Which means the fight for social mobility is neverending.
Worth it, but you never get to "win."
Abby Normal
High Clerk of the Ymaryn
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The nomads themselves can't use it too well, no, but we already saw what they do with advanced tech and/or the expert metal workers needed for that tech: trade them across the steppes and spread that tech to everyone they can. Thats the real worry, once the Trelli, the Mountain Horse, and so on get that tech by way of the nomads.
Also, "just means nomads with much better steel, much better bows, and a jump forward in cavalry development" is pretty terrible as well, i'd say, given the danger of "hard mode" nomads?
That seems like it would be a bit too powerful...imagine if every governor's palace was also a national-level library, if/when we grab library x3? Or +1 tech once we grab another arsenal? (or maybe arsenal + shrine + library, depending on if the +1 tech is "just" the 3 arsenals or if its from synergy) I do think we'll unlock similar bonuses as we build up the palace, but i dont think it'll be straight up "as if 1 level lower".
Minor thing, but i'm pretty sure gyms, as "regular" buildings/actions, aren't limited in number like infrastructure.
Hmm, potentially--though i also have to wonder if, given our general theme of "internal matters worse than external", having our "core of breakaway state" governor's palaces fortified might prove bad for our internal integrity and centralization. Also just personally i like the narrative behind the palace (and derivatives) being more... "open" than most conventional palaces, if we can afford it. The palace isn't a fortress, needing to keep out enemies. Its a place of governing, knowledge, religion, artisanry, and (once we get more gardens) nature.
True. Of course, once we get the other factions higher, we'll have even more powers to pay attention to... hopefully those powers are mostly good??? Like maybe urban poor faction poor helps allieviate some portion/subset of the true city econ/admin/disease/etc penalties? That would be quite useful...
- Location
- a
[X] [Crisis] Bring them back in with the fighting (Change Tinriver from Trading Post to Colony, will claim additional territory when fighting pirates, -1 Legitimacy)
[X] [Main] Proclaim Glory
[X] [Secondary] War Mission-Pirates Clans
[X] [Secondary] Ironworks- Redshore
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] Invite to Games - Freehills
[X] [Guild] Efficient Charcoal Kilns
[X][Guild] Build Porcelain Works
[X] [Main] Proclaim Glory
[X] [Secondary] War Mission-Pirates Clans
[X] [Secondary] Ironworks- Redshore
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] Invite to Games - Freehills
[X] [Guild] Efficient Charcoal Kilns
[X][Guild] Build Porcelain Works
We already have a policy of building substantial wall for every town we have. When we fracture, it will already be hell to reunify the Ymaryn.
So we might as well build it.
Frankly, if not for the absurdly-good quest we just got there is no way I would touch Block Housing with a ten-foot pole. It seems to just about double the cost of a city (+1 Econ/turn cost, and now allows and therefore implicitly requires Aqueducts/Baths) but without ANY of the benefits (no extra policy, no culture bonus, no wealth bonus during GA).
If we are very lucky, lvl2 ironworks will give us something different from lvl1. If we aren't, we will have spent time & energy building something that not only doesn't help us, but requires more work to update to our health standards and which costs econ every turn. :/