Paths of Civilization

[Rakuhn]

If the Western Ymaryn are still around and fighting the Storm Wolves once we finish off the pirates and our contracts with the Freehills are over (pretty unlikely), we should lend them our mercenaries.

It isn't about preventing steel casing techniques and cavalry from reaching the Steppes, it is about preventing every other technology that we develop in the future from being automatically exported to the nomads.

 

[PrimalShadow]

If the Western Ymaryn are still around and fighting the Storm Wolves once we finish off the pirates and our contracts with the Freehills are over (pretty unlikely), we should lend them our troops.

It isn't about preventing steel casing techniques and cavalry from reaching the Steppes, it is about preventing every other technology that we develop in the future from being automatically exported to the nomads.

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Sure. Once our mercenaries are free, I don't object to helping the WY. I don't like them, but I like nomads even less - and besides, this gives us a chance to make a bunch of wealth instead of losing it.

Note also that the WY are a Games participant. That buys them something. After all, actions to help them increase the prestige of the games as a diplomacy measure, in the same way that our actions against Trell tarnished it.

 

[Abby Normal]

{S} Hunt Troublemakers
Gives us advance notice on possible problems. Could be incredibly valuable, or it could be worthless - depending on what information it gives us and whether we have the time and ability to deal with it. The downside is that the -1 Intrigue by itself costs almost a full main worth of resources, and the action adds another secondary on top of that. Cheap, it is not.

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Note that the update even hinted at this being useful, either in an immediate sense or in a "how to deal with faction hijacking" sense:

"No, I think that at most the guilds might just pull out some bribes to get more housing or industry built to improve their lot, but I don't think I've heard anything dangerous. Doesn't mean its not there, just, you know, I haven't heard anything," the general said.

"Well, fortunately I have people whose job it is to find such whispers. Now, as to the pirates..."

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Noticed that while preparing my A&D post, which now just needs the infrastructure update to be posted

 

[Umi-san]

It isn't about preventing steel casing techniques and cavalry from reaching the Steppes, it is about preventing every other technology that we develop in the future from being automatically exported to the nomads.

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They aren't part of our polity. If we take a non-proprietary stance and do not suffer large stab losses, we might not export our tech.

@Academia Nut Do megaproject kicks trigger PiA?

 

[notgreat]

Honestly I really want to open up the Artisan Games to international participants. With Western Ymaryn spreading all our tech anyway unless we decide to conquer them (which I'd prefer not to do) we might as well get the bonus of having even more massively increased tech research rates.

I can't remember if we've done the new Main Expand Forest action, ever.

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We've done it as a [PSN] a couple times and never got tech from it. [PSN] actions are AFAIK exactly equivalent to their corresponding normal action.

 

[PrimalShadow]

Note that the update even hinted at this being useful, either in an immediate sense or in a "how to deal with faction hijacking" sense:

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Great point; I hadn't thought of that.

Hopefully it is general information about Hijacking and not one-off info.

E.g. if we learn that our Guilds are SUPER-interested in Block Housing and will fight is to get it - well, we we're going to build those anyway, so that is 3 secondaries worth flat-out wasted.

 

[Kiba]

Thanks for clearing.

Still I'm not supportive of Second Son movement and thus decided to null that decision.

[X] [Main] Survey Lands
[X] [Secondary] Improve Annual Festival
[X] [Secondary] Hunt Troublemakers
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] War Mission - Pirate Clans

[X] [Guild] Efficient Charcoal Kilns
[X] [Guild] Expand Snail Cultivation

Anyway, main survey land for sources precious metal and to trigger development options to absorb excess centralization from stability combination of festival/hunt trouble/enforce justice.

Also get snail cultivation for eventual aquaculture or costal sea farming. Charcoal kiln to reduce forest use and setup next turn's ironwork and found mines.

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We can't trigger mining development anymore since Wildcat Prospecting was removed and merged into PSN. Damn, that trait was useful.

 

[LuciDreamer]

It's good to know that much of the crises seem to finally be over. Now we can stop bickering with each other! Phew.

When can we start spamming watchtowers, by the way?

[X] [Crisis] Bring them back in with the fighting (Change Tinriver from Trading Post to Colony, will claim additional territory when fighting pirates, -1 Legitimacy)
[X] [Main] Proclaim Glory
[X] [Secondary] War Mission-Pirates Clans
[X] [Secondary] Build Roads
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] Invite to Games - Freehills
[X] [Guild] Efficient Charcoal Kilns
[X] [Guild] Efficient Charcoal Kilns x2

 

[VoidZero]

@Academia Nut

Can faction hijack inadvertently cause negative stats, even if temporary?

Does our subsidiary states have mega project options? And are they allowed to start on it without any overlord input?

 

[Kiba]

@Academia Nut

Can faction hijack inadvertently cause negative stats, even if temporary?

Does our subsidiary states have mega project options? And are they allowed to start on it without any overlord input?

Click to shrink...

1) Yes
2) We never seen them to do it, and it always seem to require integration before we're allowed to do any megaproject.

 

[ctulhuslp]

When can we start spamming watchtowers, by the way?

Click to shrink...

The core premise of the quest is that there will always be more things to do than actions to do them with, so never

 

[Oshha]

Can faction hijack inadvertently cause negative stats, even if temporary?

Click to shrink...

Already answered.

Mechanically they are unconstrained, but will generally try not to crash the economy. However, if they are selfish enough to force an override, they can be stupid enough to do damage accidentally.

Click to shrink...

 

[Abby Normal]

Analysis and Diffcheckers -- "Myranyn Reforms III"​

Diff Checker (Action List)
Diff Checker (Civ Sheet)
Diff Checker (Civ Sheet BBCode)

@PrimalShadow @veekie @zamin @BungieONI

Spoiler: Civ Sheet

General
Diplomacy 18 [+4]
-Intrigue 4
Economy 10 (+4) [-6+5]
-Sustainable Forests 24/27.5
-Econ Expansion 10 [+6-5] [Overcrowding Min: -5]
Martial 3 (+1) {8}
-Light Cavalry 1
Naval 2
Wealth 10 [+2]
+3 Salt
+2/2 = 1 Strategic
+4/2 = 2 Luxury
-1+2 Units
-5 Maintenance
Total: 0

Click to shrink...

Diplo 16 -> 18​

16 - 4 (Pushing for Peace) + 1 (Overflow from Tech) + 5 (???) = 18
Not really sure where the ??? comes from... i guess probably from passing the crisis? or maybe from succeeding at peace? *shrug*

Econ 14 (+4) -> 10 (+4)​

14 - 4 (2x Palace Annex) = 10 + (+4) (Still pending refugees) = 10 (+4)

EE 6 -> 10​

6 + 4 (Palace annex refunds) = 10

Cultural
Culture 24 [+4]
Mysticism 24 [+3-3]
Tech 24 (+2) [+1-1]
Prestige 87

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Culture 24 -> 24​

24 - 4 (2 Palace Annexes) = 20 + 8 (Overflow from Mysticism) - 4 (Overflow to Tech) = 24

Mysticism 23 (+9) -> 24​

23 + 9 (Pending) = 32 - 8 (Overflow to Culture) = 24

Tech 18 (+3) -> 24 (+2)​

18 + 1 (Pending Refunds) = 21 + 4 (Overflow from Culture) - 1 (Overflow to Diplo) = 24 + (+2) (Remaining Refunds) = 24 (+2)
I had thought all the refunds would go at once, but since i can't see any reason for us to gain more tech refunds otherwise, i guess i missed those coming in staggered? *shrug*

Stability
Stability 0 (neutral)
Legitimacy 3 (max)

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Stability -1 -> 0​

-1 + 1 (Pushing for Peace) = 0

Statuses

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And second son crisis is gone! Woo! Specifically, we met the "Martial < 5" and "yeoman power 0?" options, thanks to...the patrician faction??? Talk about unusual allies But yeah, the patrician factions newly matured power (add or remove their faction power from faction they support/oppose) took the yeoman faction power down to -2, solving the crisis for us

Capital Palace
A grand center of government, the palace seats the king and all the necessary organs of governance, as well as being aesthetically attractive and imposing, so as to show off the wealth and power of the People. Required capstone project to move beyond Bronze Age models. Grants access to the Governor's Palace extended project.
Annexes (11/15): Grand Hallx2, Shrine, Library x2, Storehousex2, Garden, Arsenal x3
Annex Effect: +1 National Library count, -1 Temp Econ damage for all palaces, +1 EE before Valleyhome loses TC status, +1 Safe Martial, +1 Tech Refund, +1 Tech/turn

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New annexes have had some rather nice effects.
2nd storehouse: "-1 temp econ damage" -> "-1 Temp Econ damage for all palaces" (That is, governor's palaces)
3rd Arsenal: Added a per turn tech drip
So even beyond the benefits to the reforms, and future benefits from more gov palaces, we've gained 2 temp econ resistance and 1 tech/turn out of a mere main action, 4 econ, and 4 culture...annexes are pretty great

Spoiler: Action List

Expand Economy - Encourage the growth of food producing activities such as farming, pastures, or fishing, depending on where focus is placed
*S: +4 Econ, -4 Econ Expansion, potential additional effects

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Steel Blooded takes effect, making Expand Econ even stronger =3

Found Free City - Cities are hard to manage, giving them increased autonomy to manage themselves will reduce administrative overhead. Current Possibility: Blackmouth
*S: Transfer 2 Econ and Econ Expansion, converts True City to Free City. Free Cities now produce a Passive Policy of their choice in activity each turn

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"Current Possibility" has been updated, no longer lists only sacred forest.

Plant Poppies [Guild] - Within some temple grounds there are gardens where the poppy grows, and the milk of the poppy can be harvested. Expanding production should have interesting effects.
*S: -2 Econ, -2 Econ Expansion, +1 Mysticism, +3 Wealth
*M: -3 Econ, -3 Econ Expansion, +1 Mysticism, +7 Wealth, new trade good

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Now that we have a decent supply of poppies, they don't create unique/new opportunities for health and/or mystical usage, so lose some of their mysticism benefit and all of their martial benefit. Luckily that means more being sold, and thus a higher wealth boost

Study Stars - What secrets do the heavens hold when you study the stars and their motions carefully?
*S: -1 Wealth, +1 Mysticism, gives mid-turn astrological predictions
Cannot be used as a Main action

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Study stars gives +1 mysticism again, likely due to having an observatory that makes it easier to study the stars.

Governor's Palace - Every palace lowers Min. Centralization by 0.5 and adds +1 to max interconnectivity, Temp Econ damage resistance, and adds +1 to max Martial, but also reduces Max. Centralization by 1 and can serve as the core of a breakaway state in a civil war. Each {S} costs 3 Econ and 3 Culture and produces 3 Progress

Click to shrink...

Pretty big changes to the GP.
-Min cent tolerance only improves by 0.5 now, instead of 1.
-Thanks to palace storehouse x2, GP now give a Temp Econ Resistance, either due to the palace having stores to distribute to GPs or by them "copying" the design of the palace.
-GP's add to max safe martial, either due to arsenal x3 (and the same "copying" of the main palace) or due to the reforms in general

Colossal Walls - True Cities can support truly gigantic walls. Each {S} committed consumes 3 Econ and 1 Martial for 3 Progress. Valleyhome (0/9), Sacred Forest (0/9), Blackmouth (0/9)

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Blackmouth added as a target for colossal walls. Odd that the free cities aren't listed, and that SF is despite not being an active city while other unactive cities aren't...

Block Housing - Multilevel housing that allows for many, many people to be stuffed into a small area. Can only be built in locations with sufficient shipping to bring in enough external food to keep the locations fed, but can allow for Level 2 infrastructure to be built. Block Housing increases the city's EE limit by 5, but decreases the limit for cities without Block Housing by 4. Each Block Housing also increases the Econ tax of a True City by 1. Every {S} cost 3 Econ and 3 Tech for 3 progress. Redshore (0/3), Blackmouth (0/3)

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New option, available thanks to the Panem status. I'm surprised it doesn't list "increased vulnerability to fire and disease", and i'm not sure if that means it doesn't make those worse or if it just doesn't show it... *ponder*
Also still not sure how the city priority list is affected by this, with the EE limit changes...
Still, seems pretty powerful, if expensive. As is, i think we would be better off avoiding it for now and "just" building up lv 1 stuff...if it weren't for the guild quest offering a full megaproject for free

Ironworks [Guild] - Huge, centralized centers of iron production, these facilities make high quality iron tools cheaper and more widely available. Every facility adds +1 Econ, -1 EE, -1 Tech to the Expand Economy action. Every {S} cost 3 Econ and 3 Tech for 3 progress, and completed Ironworks also consume an additional 2 sustainable forest. Valleyhome (0/3), Redshore (0/3), Redhills (Wonder), Blackmouth (0/3)

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Very interesting ability... basically lets us replicate the Iron/Steel -blooded legacies, albeit at a one-off forest cost and a constant (per EE usage) tech cost. Given we usually have tech stockpiled pretty high one or two stacks should be safe on tech, especially with the refund.

Palace Annex - Can construct additional palace annexes, with each {S} committed consuming 2 Econ and 2 Culture for a new annex (11/15)
-Great Hall Expansion
-Shrine
-Library
-Gardens
-Storehouse
-Arsenal
-Fortifications
-Stables

Click to shrink...

And we've finally unlocked stables as an annex! If we ever have the time, we should build at least one...preferably i'd like to add another shrine and garden, and 2 stacks of stables. get to x2 of everything but fortifications, and fits within our current annex limit.

Spoiler: Update

Sometimes people behave like belligerent, braying jackasses.

Sometimes, they realize that when they sit down and talk things out, they realize that they don't need to actually keeping hitting each other.

This was one of the latter cases, thankfully enough. With the fig leaf of 'suppressing piracy', the Trelli were able to swallow the loss of their eastern holdings to Freehills and accept a peace treaty. With just a bit of pressure they were also convinced to allow for (mostly) free movement in the strait. Part of it all was of course that the Trelli desperately needed trade to flow again, and they remained the best stopover point for trade anyway, so while it was obvious that they weren't happy they were more concerned with ending the disruption to trade. For their part, Freehills seemed more than a little interested in taking a swing at the Khemetri colonies, but upon hearing that the People weren't interested in letting them have their mercenaries for such an affair, decided to just work on getting their coastlines secured.

Click to shrink...

Yay for peace! <3 And seemingly open passage through the strait without 2 wealth a turn!

And as for the glory hounding idiots who kept making trouble...

"They're going after the pirates?" The king asked of the advisor giving the report.

"Yes sir. The Western People are in something of an unstable back and forth with the Storm Tribes, so the big draw right now is to go south of Tinshore to raid 'bandit' villages, under the assumption that it is both safer and will be more condoned," the man informed him.

"Huh," was the king's reply.

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Huh indeed... definitely the best we could hope for, i imagine.

Second Sons Crisis is attacking a group you are already attacking
[] [Crisis] If they want to go play bandit they can get caught up along the way (-3 Martial, -1 Stability)
[] [Crisis] Bring them back in with the fighting (Change Tinriver from Trading Post to Colony, will claim additional territory when fighting pirates, -1 Legitimacy)

Click to shrink...

Eww, legitimacy hit, and double eww, loss of trade post That'll be 1 less diplo a turn (from mature trade post) and 1 less wealth a turn (since we'll have 3 salt production and 2 supports instead of the current 3 support)...i guess it'll be one more econ a turn, though

"However, in other news I think that the army reforms have significantly culled the number of young idiots with the right combination of skills, motivation, and ability to just run off. This will probably be the last time we get a large movement of warriors out of our control and into the surrounding areas. The remaining rural warriors have enough ties to their homes that they're no longer interested, while the urban ones don't have the means to run very far with their equipment," the advisor explains.

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<Fluff for Second sons being over>

"Finally!" The king exclaimed. "The reforms Myranyn has been pushing have finally paid off?"

"In part. The generals are thinking that there are a few more details to sort out, but they seem close to being in proper shape. Part of it too was a number of the urban patrician families leaning on their rural cousins to actually restrain the yeomanry. They also think that the new expansions the guilds are pushing in the cities may have something to do with it," the war chief stated, although it sounded like he was going off his own second-hand reports on those last tidbits of information.

"It will almost assuredly be part of your job now to keep an eye on such developments, while I have to increase the attention I pay," the king noted. "Do you think there might be any military trouble on that front?"

Click to shrink...

<Fluff for patrician faction being the final thing to end the crisis"

"No, I think that at most the guilds might just pull out some bribes to get more housing or industry built to improve their lot, but I don't think I've heard anything dangerous. Doesn't mean its not there, just, you know, I haven't heard anything," the general said.

Click to shrink...

Read: "The guilds might hijack actions to build block housing and/or ironworks this turn if we dont, but its not a big chance"

"Well, fortunately I have people whose job it is to find such whispers. Now, as to the pirates..."

Click to shrink...

I think this is suggesting that we use Hunt Troublemakers in the near future? That, or its a hint that HT would let us get a better idea of likely faction hijacking? Hmm...

"We need more men and boats to ensure that the pirates are put down... but I think we might be able to pressure them into behaving, at least for a generation or two. We have trouble stopping them on the water, but our traders have a mostly secure route so they can't make as many opportunistic strikes from their home villages so long as we take the southern routes. That still makes a mess of the Tinriver route, and their king can still make long distance strikes, but it's not something that we can't deal with long term, and if we hit them enough they might decide to just settle down and stop raiding in any sort of organized manner."

"Good to hear, good to hear."

Click to shrink...

Good to hear indeed

Patricians (5*) - Power: Add or subtract their faction power from factions they are supporting/opposing. Objective: Have Light cavalry above 3 within 2 turns. Success: Free equestrian tech

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Patricians have matured and now have a proper faction power, which is...kind of terrifying with their current high power? It's really useful now, but imagine them supporting a faction with similar faction power? i can't imagine having a faction at, say, 6 {11} power would be safe in the least...

Traders (2*) - Objective: Build a silver or gold mine within 2 turns. Failure: -5 Wealth [0/2]

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Losing the trelli quest took them from 3* -> 2* in power.
So obviously we're still having currency issues :/ Hopefully we can get a survey out soon then!

Yeomen (3* {-2})- Objective: Finish internal reorg within 2 turns. Success: Half current EE converted to Econ, Failure: -2 Econ

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Yeomen taken down to negative power thanks to the patricians!

Astrological Prediction: Investing today improves the reward tomorrow (58)

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I choose to believe that the prediction roll table has this entry:
30-70: <Vague Platitude>

Spoiler: Infrastructure

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True Cities
[2/6 City Candidates, 2 Free Cities, 11 City Limit]
[Limit is (#Provinces + #LandedNonFreeCitySubordinates)/2]
[1 Non-Supported True Cites : -1 High Cent Tolerance]​

-Valleyhome [Aqueduct, Baths, Sig. Walls, Capital, Palace] (25 EE Threshold)
-Blackmouth [Aqueduct, Baths, Governor's Palace, Sig. Walls?] (25 EE Threshold)
-Sacred Forest [Aqueduct, Sig. Walls] (22 EE Threshold) <Plague> [Baths in progress 1/3]
-Stallion Pen [Aqueduct, Mass. Walls] (18 EE Threshold) <Plague>
-Valleyguard [Aqueduct, Sig. Walls?] (13 EE Threshold) <Plague>
-Lower Valleyhome [Aqueduct] (6 EE Threshold) <Plague>

-Redshore [Aqueduct, Governor's Palace, Baths, Sig. Walls]
-Redhills [Aqueduct, Baths, Sig. Walls]

-Greenshore - Capital [Aqueduct, Sig. Walls?] (In Subordinate)
-Greenshore - Unknown City [Aqueduct, Sig. Walls?] (In Subordinate)
-Western Wall - Capital [Aqueduct, Governor's Palace, Sig. Walls?] (In Subordinate)

-Heaven's Hawk - Phygriftwyn [Aqueduct in progress 6/9] (In Subordinate)

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Libraries:
[Total effect: 3 Mysticism Refund]​

-Sacred Forest (Temple, Megaproject, +1 Refund by itself)
-Valleyhome (True City)
-Valleyhome (Palace Annex x2 = 1 National Library)
-Stallion Pen (Temple)
-Redshore (True City)
-Amber Road (Temple) (In Subordinate)

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Temples
[4 Total Temple Levels, 1 Natural Wonder]:​

-Sacred Forest in Sacred Shore (Lv 2)
-Dragon Graveyard in Stallion Province (Lv 2 + Natural Wonder)
-Horse Valley in Stonepen (Lv 1 + Lv 1 Observatory)
-Amber Road (Lv 1) (Subordinate)

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Salterns/Salt Mines:
[Support: 2 Trade Posts, 1 Grand Docks]
[Total Effect: +3 Wealth/turn]​

-Southshore (Lv 1 Saltern)
-Northshore (Lv 1 Saltern)
-Heaven's Hawk (Lv 1 Salt Mine) (In Subordinate, Applies to Core Anyway)

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Governor's Palace:
[-1 Min Centralization Tolerance, -2 Max Centralization Tolerances]
[+2 Max Interconnectivity, +0 Admin-Free True Cities]
[+2 Temp Econ Resistance, +2 Max Safe Martial]​

-Blackmouth
-Sacred Shore
-Western Wall (In Subordinate)

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Colossal Walls:​

None in Core or Subordinates

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Interconnectivity (17/46)
[Can gain Cent from roads up to half of max IC value (23/46), any past that will be banked]
[+5 Max Centralization Tolerance. 0 Banked Centralization]
[Formula: 2 + 3*Full_Provinces + Governor's_Palaces]​

---

Provinces
[14 Full Provinces - 2 Extra Sec Player Action, 5 Sec Province Actions, 2 Main Guild Actions]
[Next Action increase: +1 Sec Province Action, +1 Sec Guild Action at 15 Provinces]

[In Progress Provinces]​

-Northern Blackriver [0/6]
-Far North-Eastern Redvalley [2/6]

[Subordinate Provinces]​

-Western Wall - 2? Provinces (0? Ready to Integrate)
-Greenshore - 3 Provinces (0 Ready to Integrate)
-Gulvalley - 1 Province (1 Ready to Integrate) [Expansion Blocked by Neighbors]
-Heaven's Hawk - 1 Province (1 Ready to Integrate) [March, may not be able to expand peacefully?]
-Txolla - 3 Provinces (2 Ready to Integrate) [Underdeveloped; can gain more provinces internally]
-Tinriver - 1 Province (0 Ready to Integrate) [Mature Trading Post, cannot expand, can be transitioned to colony]
-Thunder Speakers - 1 Province (0 Ready to Integrate) [Seems Low, but they only get 2 actions?]
-Thunder Horse - 1 Province (0 Ready to Integrate) [Same]
-Amber Road - 1 Province (0 Ready to Integrate) [Immature Trading Post, cannot expand]

---

Safe Martial Limit - 34 {36}
[Number in {} is safe "non-primary" martial, which refers to the extra martial we gain from econ, listed in {} on the civ sheet]​

-Base Value (+10)
-14 Provinces (+14)
-2 Governor's Palaces (+2)
-Palace Arsenal Annexes (+1)
-Iron Age Census (+2)
-International Games (+5)
-Gymnasiums {+2}

---

Centralization Tolerances:
[Low Tolerance: "Neutral" - 2]
[Note: A Cent of 0 was yellow, with "Neutral" - 3" Suggests neutral is ~1-2 as a baseline.]​

-Government Base ("Neutral")
-Legacies (-1)
-2 Governor's Palaces (-1)

[High Tolerance: "High" + 3]​

-Government Base ("High")
-17 Interconnectivity (+5)
-Legacies (+2)
-14 Provinces (-1)
-1 Non-Supported True Cities (-1)
-2 Governor's Palaces (-2)

---

Miscellaneous​

-2 Secondary Gymnasium: +4 to Games Rolls, +2 Safe Non-Primary Martial
-Annex Limit: 11/18 [2 (Base) + 7 (#Provinces/2) + 9 (#LandedNonFCSubordinates)]
-Current Reformers Legacy Strength: 1/2 Refund
-Wealth Cap: 23 [10 (Provinces) + 14 (Provinces) + 3 (Guild at 6 Power) - 4 (Mylathadysm + 8 RA)
-Temp Econ Resistance: 9 [-1 (Gov Base) + 2 (Gov + 7 Cent) + 1 (Storehouse Annex) + 2 (2 Governor's Palaces) + 1 (Iron Age Census) + 4 (Mylathadysm + 8 RA)]

---

Spoiler: Infrastructure Tracker Changes

-Updated Gov Palace Listing with new mechanics
-Updated Safe Martial
-Updated Temp Econ Resistance
-Updated Cent Tolerances
-Reworded IC info to hopefully be clearer

@Academia Nut

Spoiler: Errors

Figured i should separate questions i have for you from the almost always super minor typos and the like i find
-The integrate actions' targets are out of date, or at least the integrate colony one.
-Wealth income has a typo on the civ sheet, with the [+2] being correct but the breakdown listing Total: +0 still.
-Horse Valley still has observatory listed as a build option: "Horse Valley (0/6) [Build Observatory 0/3]"
-Annex limit is out of date on both the civ sheet and action list, with 14 provinces and 9 landed subordinates, we should have 18 limit (2 + 14/2 + 9)
-Colossal wall targets are i think wrong, assuming "Is a true city" is the only requirement. Should include at least redshore/redhills, and either sacred forest shouldn't be listed until its active again or the other inactive city candidates should be listed.
-Gymnasium action has out of date bonuses listed, since provinces built a secondary gym last turn.
-Edit: Policies are also listed wrong, with "4/4" where it should be "5/5", and with infrastructure not having the "x2" it should have. Also, probably the most minor error i've ever pointed out, but theres no space between the passive policy choice and the "Develop Intrigue web" choice

Spoiler: AN Questions

1. Do we still need sailing missions to find the pirates now that they're an actual nation?
2. Will the conversion of Tinriver to a colony take place before or after the income for this turn? I assume after, like with most actions in the same phase, but just to be sure?
3. Now that we have an organized religion, are there any new/different bonuses from dominating the pilgrimage trade, aside from the existing "counts for luxury income" and "vague and seemingly small narrative effects"
4. What does our diplo chief think about the potential to diplo vassalize the Western Ymaryn? Like...is it even remotely feasible?
5. If/when we get ironworks EPs up, how will tech refunds work for the action? its listed with only a Secondary cost, so is a main technically 2 secondaries (with each separately refunded), or is it like most actions and is one main (and thus only gets 1 refund)?
6. Is the change to governor's palace min cent tolerance bonus a matter of their benefit changing, or a matter of it always being weaker than we thought but now we know?
7. You mentioned after we first got it that we could get partial progress on offsetting the Philosopher King costs. Have we gotten any farther on that, or do we basically need to get academies and/or great library to even start?
8. Are we allowed to know what determines if the faction powers have *s on them, or is that something we have to figure out by paying attention to when/if they come and go?

 

[PrimalShadow]

8. Are we allowed to know what determines if the faction powers have *s on them, or is that something we have to figure out by paying attention to when/if they come and go?

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This has been answered AFAIK. Faction power-counts get a star after they fail a quest; it means the next quest failure will decrease the power total.

 

[Abby Normal]

This has been answered AFAIK. Faction power-counts get a star after they fail a quest; it means the next quest failure will decrease the power total.

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Ahh, thanks--that was my first guess, since i remember thinking that earlier, but i didn't remember an AN post for it. I'll do another round of AN post searching later to try and get a quote to include i guess...

 

[Kiba]

This has been answered AFAIK. Faction power-counts get a star after they fail a quest; it means the next quest failure will decrease the power total.

Click to shrink...

Sounds like something we should put in the wiki.

 

[PrimalShadow]

Honestly I really want to open up the Artisan Games to international participants. With Western Ymaryn spreading all our tech anyway unless we decide to conquer them (which I'd prefer not to do) we might as well get the bonus of having even more massively increased tech research rates.

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I think that stance is missing much of nuance of the WY tech-steal situation.

1. It is unclear that the WY will remain a stable polity. They exist for the moment, but I expect them to have inherited many of our problems but not our legacies or megaprojects. I would not be surprised if something came around in the next half-dozen turns and killed them, or destabalized them enough that we would just swallow them with a bit PiA event.
2. If the WY beat the Storm Tribes, then they aren't spreading our tech; they just have it. This is not great, but it is a far cry from giving our our tech to everyone at the games, even if they are all tentatively our allies.
3. Right now, part of the reason WY has out tech is because it can ask for skilled Artisans to go work for them, thanks to exploiting their connections and population perception of WY as "still the People". Over time, I think it is likely that such connections will decay over time, as will the perception of WY as still the same polity as us.

 

[Candesce]

I think that stance is missing much of nuance of the WY tech-steal situation.

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While I think you have a point, I don't believe the WY situation is going to be anywhere near the last time we'll be bleeding tech. Something like this will come up again, and it might be sooner than later. Given that, shouldn't we at least profit from the tech-spread?

 

[Kiba]

I am sure it will be fun for whatever poor negaverse happens to end up in control of that polity.

 

[notgreat]

While I think you have a point, I don't believe the WY situation is going to be anywhere near the last time we'll be bleeding tech. Something like this will come up again, and it might be sooner than later. Given that, shouldn't we at least profit from the tech-spread?

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Not only that, but this would mean that backing out of The Games comes with a near complete stopper on their tech-stealing. They'll basically be locked into staying with us unless they're willing to start falling way behind everyone else.

 

[Horologer]

We can't trigger mining development anymore since Wildcat Mining was removed and merged into PSN. Damn, that trait was useful.

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We do have Main Survey Lands. Since we don't know when or if the Liquidity Crisis will make a comeback, we should probably do that ASAP. Worst case scenario, we find out we don't have precious metals and are going to have to find an external source. Best case, we find the motherlode. Either way, we get a better idea of where we stand, which is always a good thing.

I was really hoping we'd do it this turn, since we've got plenty of actions and not a lot of Econ, but the thread's already made its decision.

Oh well. There's always next turn.

 

[PrimalShadow]

While I think you have a point, I don't believe the WY situation is going to be anywhere near the last time we'll be bleeding tech. Something like this will come up again, and it might be sooner than later. Given that, shouldn't we at least profit from the tech-spread?

Click to shrink...

Sure, we will bleed tech in the future. That is basically inevitable; at this point, I think of our tech advantage as less of a permanent bonus and more of a time-limited lead that expires after a while. It is like when we invented mercenaries; we got to use them for a couple of generations, and then the idea was copied. No helping it; even the best intellectual-property-control measures eventually fail, as was seen with iron.

However. What CAN change is how long our lead lasts. Basically, other polities will always rubber-band off of our technological progress, but we can affect the LENGTH of that rubber band. International Artisan Games would make tech-spread faster and more consistent, shortening the duration of our lead.


As for benefiting from other polities? Note that AFAIK, a normal polity has only one base innovation roll. We have many times that: one roll by default + one roll from our Innovation Policy + one roll from the Docks, all doubled for a total of 6 innovation rolls. Plus more rolls if we take any of the Guild Actions that grant them or our cities do innovation policy. We build up new techs a LOT more quickly than any of our neighbors. Furthermore, PiA means that we already copy our neighbors' techs relatively well, so the end result is that the International Games would only give us a trickle of things that we wouldn't shortly be getting anyways. I don't think that is worth shortening our own lead.

 

[DakkaMania]

Now that we are back to being... less on fire, I expect us to have some free actions that we can be flexible about. Oh, sure, most of our time is going to be spent on whatever flavor-of-the-day problem/opportunity we have to deal with at the moment (currently Pirates, the Guild Quest, and Myranyn Reforms), but we will have some free actions to work with, at least. In light of this, I want to make a list of the lowest-hanging fruit: options that can be done with minimum time or resource commitment in exchange for significant returns with negligible risk.

{S} Palace Annex (x4)
Basically EVERY palace annex we've built has proven itself worthwhile. Whether it is temp-damage protection, tech income, increased martial cap, or tech refunds, I don't remember every regretting building one. We still have at least four annex slots (more if AN ever gets around to updating that to account for our increased number of provinces); it is an absolute shame that we aren't using them.

{S} Build Road
Building Roads is something that we all knowledge as necessary, but that we hardly ever gets the time for. However, right now, we are at 17 roads... which means that one more widens our centralization range by one. Since we know widening centralization range has narrative effects, and a higher range means that mechanically we can store up more centralization to spend on PSN in emergencies, I think this is well worth the single action it would take.

{S} New Free City
Each Free City gives us +1 Econ/turn, +1 Culture/turn, +1 AI Passive Policy, and +1 to our upper Cent cap, all at the low cost of one subordinate slot. Except one more Free City would make our third, which means we get a Legacy slot from it. Can we please do this before someone else takes it?

{M} Expand Forests
I can't remember if we've done the new Main Expand Forest action, ever. Not only is it net-positive in terms of stats (+1 Econ, +1 LTE), but it gives us an extra Sustainable Forest (which we can certainly use), and maybe gets us to invent paper (which we can really, really, really use). It is not certain, but the first time we do an action has often yielded something nice; it is very much a shame that we have put this one off so long.

{S} Saltern
Okay. The truth is, the provinces are never going to get to it at this rate, and since we are going to have an unpaired Saltern after losing a Trading Post, this gets us 1 Wealth/turn.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Here are some other notable mentions; actions that are also highly valuable, but have notable downsides:

{S} Invite to Games
This pays great dividends at 1 Diplo/turn and improved relations with the chosen polity, but can fizzle if we use it on someone who isn't interested, and can also cost us conflict or prestige if they try to get us involved in their wars.

{S} Integrate Colony
This pays MASSIVE returns, getting us two extra secondary actions. However, it is actually a net loss of actions if you assume the colony had been doing useful things, and it decreases our cent cap due to overextension.

{S} Hunt Troublemakers
Gives us advance notice on possible problems. Could be incredibly valuable, or it could be worthless - depending on what information it gives us and whether we have the time and ability to deal with it. The downside is that the -1 Intrigue by itself costs almost a full main worth of resources, and the action adds another secondary on top of that. Cheap, it is not.

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Your list doesn't include Influence Subordinarte, which has way overdue.


@Academia Nut

If the Guild does the megaproject, do we get the Reformers reward from it if it is a social megaproject?

 

[Kiba]

What passive policies do we have online?

Forest, Infrastructure, Vassal support? Then our true cities' choices?

 

[PrimalShadow]

Your list doesn't include Influence Subordinarte, which has way overdue.

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Influence Subordinate is about as cheap as water is dry.

Remember, my list was things that "can be done with minimum time or resource commitment in exchange for significant returns with negligible risk". Useful as Influence might be, losing 12-18 points of stats is a major expenditure, and not just something you throw into a plan without much discussion when you have a free action.

Same as the Dam, really. That is definitely something we want to do; but it isn't the type of action I was listing.