Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
The precedent it sets is almost certainly worth it, imo
Ancient Scholar
Amateur Editor/Beta
- Location
- United States
So we have alot of Delende Est. When's the crusade?
- Location
- United States
Well, the Patricians likely wouldn't have gone to reform the military if the Yeomen didn't go fuck off for several decades, so in that sense I think it was worth it.
I mean, there would be pain and suffering either way but it is unclear which is better.
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
I'm fairly sure a lot more our people would die if a civil war starts, adding various opportunity strike from surrounding polity and eastern vassals bowing out. Averting the civil war is most definitely worth it.
More like the precedent it didn't set.
We still don't have any nobility profiting from conquest (much), and we didn't have to drop an army on our own citizens.
Well. We'll see how it turns out, though we'll probably never be certain what the counterfactual would have been.
I am not sure. Think it would happen anyway to prevent it from ever happening again.
Never. We just keep on growing via Colonies and Diplo-annexation.
Honestly I think we're fine with everyone now. Western Ymaryn's about to be crushed by the Nomad Cavalry, HK's been sitting tight in their mountains and I kinda want to send a trade mission to them, and Trelli's been weakened enough that we've got free access through the straits.
[X][Main] Enforce Justice
[X][Secondary] Proclaim Glory
[X][Secondary] War Mission-Pirates Clans
[X][Secondary] Ironworks- Redshore
[X][Secondary] Invite to Games - Freehills
[X][Guild] Efficient Charcoal Kilns
[X][Guild] Build Porcelain Works
Especially when we know previous groups of Second Sons have been slaving bastards, I'm putting a higher priority on keeping track of the shit this most recent group will be getting up to over telling people how awesome they've been.
[X] [Crisis] If they want to go play bandit they can get caught up along the way (-3 Martial, -1 Stability)
[X][Secondary] Proclaim Glory
[X][Secondary] War Mission-Pirates Clans
[X][Secondary] Ironworks- Redshore
[X][Secondary] Invite to Games - Freehills
[X][Guild] Efficient Charcoal Kilns
[X][Guild] Build Porcelain Works
Especially when we know previous groups of Second Sons have been slaving bastards, I'm putting a higher priority on keeping track of the shit this most recent group will be getting up to over telling people how awesome they've been.
[X] [Crisis] If they want to go play bandit they can get caught up along the way (-3 Martial, -1 Stability)
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On the other hand. That extra point of stability puts us at our cap of 3, which is golden-age territory. Perhaps more importantly, we are getting our free cities up this turn, which will tank out Cent cap; I'm not sure we are going to be happy to have that extra point of centralization.
A fringe benefit of the WYmaryn getting fucked is that the narrative is now that if they run off for glory, the Crown will allow you to reap the consequences of your actions in full.
The last group on the other hand, has at least a figleaf of legitimacy and in a few decades, the tale won't even mention that they were looking for glory, but to punish the wicked pirates in concert with the crown. Which is a good narrative to have.
Either PSN or integrating a vassal will fix that, though.
Abby Normal
High Clerk of the Ymaryn
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I mean, thats not exactly a good thing? that just leads to the nomads getting most if not all of our tech...and as we saw with Ironworking, them trading it across the steppes so that said tech spreads as far as possible. I doubt its all that feasible, given the reason for their existence, but if we could diplo-vassalize them now that the crisis is over that would be the best...maybe if we get a diplo hero either naturally or via golden age? hmm...
It isn't a long term problem, certainly - but it is enough of a concern that I'd rather not deal with it, especially given that the vote is already doing {M} PG + {S} EJ and not the other way around.
Do note that 8 is reasonably likely to be gold right now (7 was gold in one of the pre-update edits before AN finalized things), which would put 10 at red... but I expect to get two cities, making 8 red instead. That means 1 point of cent puts us at the first red value, and 2 at the second red value. I'm okay tolerating the former, but I'd rather mot push to the later without good reason. Even if the penalties for just touching red aren't too bad, they are after all doubled due to Guild Economy.
- Location
- Austria
I'll be honest, I do not think we need to grow anymore. If we manage to annex all our vassals that we can, we'll be of pretty good size already: imagine the country which covers Iraq, eastern Turkey, the whole Caucasus and a bit of steppe to the north of it.
That's pretty good amount of land already, let's keep focus on keeping ourselves together.
At this point, our biggest advantage is probably the fact we've survived without civil war for 2000 years or so and amassed a lot of legacies out of it. Continuity of government for such a long period is quite amazing, let's not squander it.
edit: on second thought, no, more centralization is not worth -.5 stability. I want to sit at 3 when liquidity crisis is back, thanks.
14. And 12 is the maximum number of provinces without administrative strain.
I do not know how to raise said limit though. Making clerks jobs easier via Palace Libraries maybe? I don't have a lot of ideas beyond that.
That's pretty good amount of land already, let's keep focus on keeping ourselves together.
At this point, our biggest advantage is probably the fact we've survived without civil war for 2000 years or so and amassed a lot of legacies out of it. Continuity of government for such a long period is quite amazing, let's not squander it.
edit: on second thought, no, more centralization is not worth -.5 stability. I want to sit at 3 when liquidity crisis is back, thanks.
14. And 12 is the maximum number of provinces without administrative strain.
I do not know how to raise said limit though. Making clerks jobs easier via Palace Libraries maybe? I don't have a lot of ideas beyond that.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
It does not involve Western Ymaryn at all.
Umm, even if they are defeated by the nomads, the Western Ymaryn are still going to exist. They are still going to be getting our tech, they are still going to be draining our economy whenever we take a stab hit. They are still going to have slaves. It's just now that they are going to be giving all our tech to their new nomad overlords.
And heck, the Second Sons will still have come out massively ahead. They were going to have to go to the cities to become urban poor, and instead they will own numerous slaves, own vast tracts of land, and have some level of political autonomy.
And heck, the Second Sons will still have come out massively ahead. They were going to have to go to the cities to become urban poor, and instead they will own numerous slaves, own vast tracts of land, and have some level of political autonomy.
Abby Normal
High Clerk of the Ymaryn
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I think that will only change with a new government upgrade, actually. That is, the specific "every 2 provinces past 12 lowers cent cap by 1" bit. Thus, anything that raises cent cap deals with said limit, at least indirectly. So...mostly roads? We're at +5 from IC, and even if we dont gain any more provinces or gov palaces, we can get up to +15 if we get to 45/46 IC.
The Western Ymaryn is a huge mess. They're going to find it hard to be a polity until they get their shit together and jettison PSN if they have it.
Otherwise, Western Ymaryn is likely to implode even if they held off Storm Wolves.
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
Thanks for clearing.
Still I'm not supportive of Second Son movement and thus decided to null that decision.
[X] [Main] Survey Lands
[X] [Secondary] Improve Annual Festival
[X] [Secondary] Hunt Troublemakers
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] War Mission - Pirate Clans
[X] [Guild] Efficient Charcoal Kilns
[X] [Guild] Expand Snail Cultivation
Anyway, main survey land for sources precious metal and to trigger development options to absorb excess centralization from stability combination of festival/hunt trouble/enforce justice.
Also get snail cultivation for eventual aquaculture or costal sea farming. Charcoal kiln to reduce forest use and setup next turn's ironwork and found mines.
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
The "unstable back and forth" to me doesn't mean the WP are getting crushed. It does mean they're suffering, however.
Every back and forth means they get our gear & ppl & our tech w/ them, however.
But we need to get more roads, clear off the pirates, establish better lowland connections, and consolidate our hold over our subordinates. Comparatively, keeping steel casing techniques internal is less significant.
Edit: We can always research more and "build tall" once we've finished cementing our foundation.
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Now that we are back to being... less on fire, I expect us to have some free actions that we can be flexible about. Oh, sure, most of our time is going to be spent on whatever flavor-of-the-day problem/opportunity we have to deal with at the moment (currently Pirates, the Guild Quest, and Myranyn Reforms), but we will have some free actions to work with, at least. In light of this, I want to make a list of the lowest-hanging fruit: options that can be done with minimum time or resource commitment in exchange for significant returns with negligible risk.
{S} Palace Annex (x4)
Basically EVERY palace annex we've built has proven itself worthwhile. Whether it is temp-damage protection, tech income, increased martial cap, or tech refunds, I don't remember every regretting building one. We still have at least four annex slots (more if AN ever gets around to updating that to account for our increased number of provinces); it is an absolute shame that we aren't using them.
{S} Build Road
Building Roads is something that we all knowledge as necessary, but that we hardly ever gets the time for. However, right now, we are at 17 roads... which means that one more widens our centralization range by one. Since we know widening centralization range has narrative effects, and a higher range means that mechanically we can store up more centralization to spend on PSN in emergencies, I think this is well worth the single action it would take.
{S} New Free City
Each Free City gives us +1 Econ/turn, +1 Culture/turn, +1 AI Passive Policy, and +1 to our upper Cent cap, all at the low cost of one subordinate slot. Except one more Free City would make our third, which means we get a Legacy slot from it. Can we please do this before someone else takes it?
{M} Expand Forests
I can't remember if we've done the new Main Expand Forest action, ever. Not only is it net-positive in terms of stats (+1 Econ, +1 LTE), but it gives us an extra Sustainable Forest (which we can certainly use), and maybe gets us to invent paper (which we can really, really, really use). It is not certain, but the first time we do an action has often yielded something nice; it is very much a shame that we have put this one off so long.
{S} Saltern
Okay. The truth is, the provinces are never going to get to it at this rate, and since we are going to have an unpaired Saltern after losing a Trading Post, this gets us 1 Wealth/turn.
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Here are some other notable mentions; actions that are also highly valuable, but have notable downsides:
{S} Invite to Games
This pays great dividends at 1 Diplo/turn and improved relations with the chosen polity, but can fizzle if we use it on someone who isn't interested, and can also cost us conflict or prestige if they try to get us involved in their wars.
{S} Integrate Colony
This pays MASSIVE returns, getting us two extra secondary actions. However, it is actually a net loss of actions if you assume the colony had been doing useful things, and it decreases our cent cap due to overextension.
{S} Hunt Troublemakers
Gives us advance notice on possible problems. Could be incredibly valuable, or it could be worthless - depending on what information it gives us and whether we have the time and ability to deal with it. The downside is that the -1 Intrigue by itself costs almost a full main worth of resources, and the action adds another secondary on top of that. Cheap, it is not.
{S} Palace Annex (x4)
Basically EVERY palace annex we've built has proven itself worthwhile. Whether it is temp-damage protection, tech income, increased martial cap, or tech refunds, I don't remember every regretting building one. We still have at least four annex slots (more if AN ever gets around to updating that to account for our increased number of provinces); it is an absolute shame that we aren't using them.
{S} Build Road
Building Roads is something that we all knowledge as necessary, but that we hardly ever gets the time for. However, right now, we are at 17 roads... which means that one more widens our centralization range by one. Since we know widening centralization range has narrative effects, and a higher range means that mechanically we can store up more centralization to spend on PSN in emergencies, I think this is well worth the single action it would take.
{S} New Free City
Each Free City gives us +1 Econ/turn, +1 Culture/turn, +1 AI Passive Policy, and +1 to our upper Cent cap, all at the low cost of one subordinate slot. Except one more Free City would make our third, which means we get a Legacy slot from it. Can we please do this before someone else takes it?
{M} Expand Forests
I can't remember if we've done the new Main Expand Forest action, ever. Not only is it net-positive in terms of stats (+1 Econ, +1 LTE), but it gives us an extra Sustainable Forest (which we can certainly use), and maybe gets us to invent paper (which we can really, really, really use). It is not certain, but the first time we do an action has often yielded something nice; it is very much a shame that we have put this one off so long.
{S} Saltern
Okay. The truth is, the provinces are never going to get to it at this rate, and since we are going to have an unpaired Saltern after losing a Trading Post, this gets us 1 Wealth/turn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Here are some other notable mentions; actions that are also highly valuable, but have notable downsides:
{S} Invite to Games
This pays great dividends at 1 Diplo/turn and improved relations with the chosen polity, but can fizzle if we use it on someone who isn't interested, and can also cost us conflict or prestige if they try to get us involved in their wars.
{S} Integrate Colony
This pays MASSIVE returns, getting us two extra secondary actions. However, it is actually a net loss of actions if you assume the colony had been doing useful things, and it decreases our cent cap due to overextension.
{S} Hunt Troublemakers
Gives us advance notice on possible problems. Could be incredibly valuable, or it could be worthless - depending on what information it gives us and whether we have the time and ability to deal with it. The downside is that the -1 Intrigue by itself costs almost a full main worth of resources, and the action adds another secondary on top of that. Cheap, it is not.