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Paths of Civilization

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@Academia Nut Has Trelli implosion caused it to lose its legacies or has it kept them?

Personally, I lean towards them keeping them as we haven't got a rule of three mercenary legacy despite having three merc companies
 
We were warned about possible internal issues if we kept our mercenaries fighting. I really hope that doesn't come back to bite us.
 
Kiba said:
Possible internal issues, what?
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Oshha said:
Were we? I don't remember that happening.
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Academia Nut said:
but pushing further was going to run into a lot of problems internally. Mostly because the casualties of pushing across the strait were going to be enormous.
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Seems fairly obvious, no? Here's hoping we get a bit of extra money from having the mercs glare at Trelli while the peace treaty is worked out, but if that goes south then bad things happen.
 
We need a bricklayer guild so we can use Guild actions for it.

Jokes aside, better tech made basic walls automatic already. It's possible that a combination of ironworks and concrete (which shouldn't be too far off by now) makes significant walls much easier in terms of progress per action.

Ironically, the Dam + Lowland Canal may achieve the same by freeing up labor that would otherwise be growing food to work in quarries or transport the stone through rivers. If we can throw that many more bodies at a problem it should achieve something as well.

Watchtowers and their eventual Castle evolution may be the best bet, though. It's defence in depth. Not because the nomads will have difficulties besieging every fortress on the way, but because besieging them costs time and strategic mobility, which is a large part of what makes the bastards so dangerous. If they have to take every castle, they get bogged down. If they ride past, they leave enemy troops in their rear to make trouble.
 
Analysis and Diffcheckers -- "Myranyn Reforms II"​

Diff Checker (Civ Sheet)
Diff Checker (Civ Sheet BBCode)

@PrimalShadow @BungieONI @veekie @zamin
Academia Nut said:
General
Diplomacy 16 [+4]
-Intrigue 4
Economy 14 (+4) [-6+5]
-Sustainable Forests 24/27.5
-Econ Expansion 6 [+6-5] [Overcrowding Min: -5]
Martial 3 (+1) {8}
-Light Cavalry 1
Naval 2
Wealth 10 [-0]
+3 Salt
+2/2 = 1 Strategic
+4/2 = 2 Luxury
-1+2 Units
-5 Maintenance
Total: 0
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Econ 6 -> 14 (+4)​
6 + 8 (Expand Econ) = 14 + (+4) (Refugees) = 14 (+4)
EE 18 -> 6​
18 - 8 (Expand Econ) - 4 (Refugees) = 6
Martial 11 (+1) -> 3 (+1)​
11 - 8 (Found Mercenary Company) = 3
Wealth 8 -> 10​
8 + 2 (Hired Mercenaries) = 10

Academia Nut said:
Cultural
Culture 24 [+4]
Mysticism 23 (+9) [+3-3]
Tech 18 (+3) [-1]
Prestige 87
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Prestige 87 -> 87​
Means we didn't get any prestige from the mercenary actions, at least yet :/

Academia Nut said:
Stability
Stability -1 (anxious)
Legitimacy 3 (max)
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Stability -2 -> -1​
-2 + 2 (Enforce Justice) - 1 (Refugees) = -1

Academia Nut said:
Organizational
Centralization 7
Hierarchy 7
Religious Authority 8
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Centralization 6 -> 7
6 + 3 (Enforce Justice) - 2 (Personal Stewards) = 7

Academia Nut said:
Second Son Crisis - Lesser warriors are flowing outward, attacking outsiders and risk bringing retribution to the rest of the People. They must be reined in, but once the seed of the frontier has been planted it is hard to uproot. Causes trouble each turn, may end on its own but can be definitively ended with: Max Legitimacy? and 2 of (Cent Greater than 8?, Martial Less than 5, Yeomen Power 0?); or a Civil War
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Changes: Cent requirement is slowly getting more known; was "greater than 6?". Martial requirement met for now, confirms that non-primary martial doesn't apply.

Academia Nut said:
Periphery States (13/10+4) (Loyalty [L], Dependence [D], Effectiveness [E])
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Note that this is actually wrong. Our limit, with the new policy, should be 12 + 4. 2 Base + 8 (Prestige) + 1 (Policy) + 1 (Lord's Loyalty) = 12 for the "normal" limit, then 4 from legacies (1 vassal, 1 subordinate, 1 periphery, 1 march).
Also, AN rearranged the setup here, so our periphery/subordinate states are now listed by type, which pleases me :)

Academia Nut said:
Red Banner Company (Mercenary Company) - Can be hired to other kingdoms for wealth, or maintained to boost Martial capacity (L: 5/5, E: 4/10)
Dragon Banner (Mercenary Company) - Can be hired to other kingdoms for wealth, or maintained to boost Martial capacity (L: 5/5, E: 8/10)
Blood Rain Banner Company (Mercenary Company) - Can be hired to other kingdoms for wealth, or maintained to boost Martial capacity (L: 5/5, E: 8/10)
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New merc company, starting at 8 effectiveness, while red banner gets mulched again, going from 6 -> 4.

Academia Nut said:
Tinriver Trading Post (Trading Post) - Increases trade power for all Tin Tribe products, provides a market for an extra saltern (L: 4/5, D: 4/4) [Mature]
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Trading posts now have maturity as an explicit status, which is awesome :)

Academia Nut said:
International Games - An organized series of athletic events and mock battles to maintain fighting trim and vent the aggression of less composed warriors, this also helps foster friendly rather than destructive rivalry between major settlements and kingdoms, bringing significant glory to all. Increases Martial Tolerance by 3 for participants and by an additional 2 for the host, gives +1 Culture for every 2 True Cities within a kingdom, gives +1 Diplomacy a turn for the host for every other participant, gives a pool of Prestige equal to the number of participants that is divided among the participants each turn depending on their performance, and the host kingdom gains Culture whenever another kingdom in contact with them completes The Games megaproject. Participants: Khemetri, Trelli, Metal Workers, Harmurri, Western Ymaryn
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Participants list updated in the megaproject listing for the IG
True Cities
[2/6 City Candidates, 2 Free Cities, 11 City Limit]
[Limit is (#Provinces + #LandedNonFreeCitySubordinates)/2]
[1 Non-Supported True Cites : -1 High Cent Tolerance]​
-Valleyhome [Aqueduct, Baths, Sig. Walls, Capital, Palace] (25 EE Threshold)
-Blackmouth [Aqueduct, Baths, Governor's Palace, Sig. Walls?] (25 EE Threshold)
-Sacred Forest [Aqueduct, Sig. Walls] (22 EE Threshold) <Plague> [Baths in progress 1/3]
-Stallion Pen [Aqueduct, Mass. Walls] (18 EE Threshold) <Plague>
-Valleyguard [Aqueduct, Sig. Walls?] (13 EE Threshold) <Plague>
-Lower Valleyhome [Aqueduct] (6 EE Threshold) <Plague>

-Redshore [Aqueduct, Governor's Palace, Baths, Sig. Walls]
-Redhills [Aqueduct, Baths, Sig. Walls]

-Greenshore - Capital [Aqueduct, Sig. Walls?] (In Subordinate)
-Greenshore - Unknown City [Aqueduct, Sig. Walls?] (In Subordinate)
-Western Wall - Capital [Aqueduct, Governor's Palace, Sig. Walls?] (In Subordinate)

-Heaven's Hawk - Phygriftwyn [Aqueduct in progress 6/9] (In Subordinate)
Libraries:
[Total effect: 3 Mysticism Refund]​
-Sacred Forest (Temple, Megaproject, +1 Refund by itself)
-Valleyhome (True City)
-Valleyhome (Palace Annex x2 = 1 National Library)
-Stallion Pen (Temple)
-Redshore (True City)
-Amber Road (Temple) (In Subordinate)
Temples
[4 Total Temple Levels, 1 Natural Wonder]:​
-Sacred Forest in Sacred Shore (Lv 2)
-Dragon Graveyard in Stallion Province (Lv 2 + Natural Wonder)
-Horse Valley in Stonepen (Lv 1 + Lv 1 Observatory)
-Amber Road (Lv 1) (Subordinate)
Salterns/Salt Mines:
[Support: 2 Trade Posts, 1 Grand Docks]
[Total Effect: +3 Wealth/turn]​
-Southshore (Lv 1 Saltern)
-Northshore (Lv 1 Saltern)
-Heaven's Hawk (Lv 1 Salt Mine) (In Subordinate, Applies to Core Anyway)
Governor's Palace:
[Total Effect: -2 Min/Max Centralization Tolerances, +2 Max Interconnectivity, +0 Admin-Free True Cities]​
-Blackmouth
-Sacred Shore
-Western Wall (In Subordinate)
Colossal Walls:​
None in Core or Subordinates

Interconnectivity (17/46)
[Can gain Cent from roads up to IC 23/46, any past that will be banked]
[+5 Max Centralization Tolerance. 0 Banked Centralization]
[Formula: 2 + 3*Full_Provinces + Governor's_Palaces]​
Provinces
[14 Full Provinces - 2 Extra Sec Player Action, 5 Sec Province Actions, 2 Main Guild Actions]
[Next Action increase: +1 Sec Province Action, +1 Sec Guild Action at 15 Provinces]

[In Progress Provinces]​
-Northern Blackriver [0/6]
-Far North-Eastern Redvalley [2/6]

[Subordinate Provinces]​
-Western Wall - 2? Provinces (0? Ready to Integrate)
-Greenshore - 3 Provinces (0 Ready to Integrate)
-Gulvalley - 1 Province (1 Ready to Integrate) [Expansion Blocked by Neighbors]
-Heaven's Hawk - 1 Province (1 Ready to Integrate) [March, may not be able to expand peacefully?]
-Txolla - 3 Provinces (2 Ready to Integrate) [Underdeveloped; can gain more provinces internally]
-Tinriver - 1 Province (0 Ready to Integrate) [Mature Trading Post, cannot expand, can be transitioned to colony]
-Thunder Speakers - 1 Province (0 Ready to Integrate) [Seems Low, but they only get 2 actions?]
-Thunder Horse - 1 Province (0 Ready to Integrate) [Same]
-Amber Road - 1 Province (0 Ready to Integrate) [Immature Trading Post, cannot expand]
Safe Martial Limit - 32 {34}
[Number in {} is safe "non-primary" martial, which refers to the extra martial we gain from econ, listed in {} on the civ sheet]​
-Base Value (+10)
-14 Provinces (+14)
-Palace Arsenal Annexes (+1)
-Iron Age Census (+2)
-International Games (+5)
-Gymnasiums {+2}
Centralization Tolerances:
[Low Tolerance: "Neutral" - 3]
[Note: A Cent of 0 is yellow, with "Neutral" - 3" Suggests neutral is ~1-2 as a baseline.]​
-Government Base ("Neutral")
-Legacies (-1)
-2 Governor's Palaces (-2)
[High Tolerance: "High" + 3]​
-Government Base ("High")
-17 Interconnectivity (+5)
-Legacies (+2)
-14 Provinces (-1)
-1 Non-Supported True Cities (-1)
-2 Governor's Palaces (-2)
Miscellaneous​
-2 Secondary Gymnasium: +4 to Games Rolls, +2 Safe Non-Primary Martial
-Annex Limit: 9/18 [2 (Base) + 7 (#Provinces/2) + 9 (#LandedNonFCSubordinates)]
-Current Reformers Legacy Strength: 1/2 Refund
-Wealth Cap: 23 [10 (Provinces) + 14 (Provinces) + 3 (Guild at 6 Power) - 4 (Mylathadysm + 8 RA)
-Temp Econ Resistance: 7 (- 1 (Gov Base) + 2 (Gov + 7 Cent) + 1 (Storehouse Annex) + 1 (Iron Age Census) + 4 (Mylathadysm + 8 RA)
-Added new aqueducts and baths, recalculated city list.
-Added new temple + Observatory
-Added new gymnasium + change to martial limit
-Updated Cent Tolerance
-Added wealth cap
-Added temp econ damage resistance
Seeing as the votes already locked, no update analysis, though i'll note that the faction overriding mechanic terrifies me D=

@Academia Nut The subordinate limit is wrong, and should be 12 + 4. 2 Base + 8 (Prestige) + 1 (Policy) + 1 (Lord's Loyalty) = 12 for the "normal" limit, then 4 from legacies (1 vassal, 1 subordinate, 1 periphery, 1 march). Likewise, the subordinate count is 14, not 13. Also, super minor, but Gulvalley doesn't seem to be italicized like the rest.

Edit: AN fixed the minor issues i mentioned and added in my tracker changes to the civ sheet, so i updated the diffs :)
 
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notgreat said:
Seems fairly obvious, no? Here's hoping we get a bit of extra money from having the mercs glare at Trelli while the peace treaty is worked out, but if that goes south then bad things happen.
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AN said that Freehills and Trelli were likely going to just do light raiding against each other since neither can take on the other on their side of the strait.

So unless Freehills gets super ballsy and somehow finds a way to push without getting demolished, we shouldn't have to worry about it.
 
DakkaMania said:
Watchtowers and their eventual Castle evolution may be the best bet, though. It's defence in depth. Not because the nomads will have difficulties besieging every fortress on the way, but because besieging them costs time and strategic mobility, which is a large part of what makes the bastards so dangerous. If they have to take every castle, they get bogged down. If they ride past, they leave enemy troops in their rear to make trouble.
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Nomad logistics depend on constant moving of their horses. Bog them down, their horses start dying.
 
BungieONI said:
Alright, @Abby Normal, @veekie, @PrimalShadow could you folks please check this article I made on the PoC wiki about the timing of our income?

Income/Expense Timing.

Thank you for your time.
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Hmm...remind me of this later maybe?

Inspirit said:
Ah, that makes sense. I forgot that area became its own province. The midturn reaction was what I was thinking of, since I remember the Stallion Tribes building a wall for Stallionpen around the same time. If I'm remembering right, shouldn't Stallionpen's walls be significant as well, since it was under the old system?
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Hmm...i dont remember for sure on stallionpen, especially since we dont get to see the specific targets for subordinate actions generally, but i think my logic there was based on the stallions having taken a couple double old mains and/or single new mains on walls, and the fact that it was almost certain to include stallionpen? That said, the important thing for city calcs are the number of layers of walls around cities, not how big those walls are, and since we didn't have targets for those actions... no clue *shrug* only @Academia Nut knows for sure, and i'm not sure how much of that kind of thing he actually tracks, especially since walls were abstracted to a percentage value for a while...

Edit: Also, thanks for the quick like and edit to the civ sheet AN :)
 
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Kiba said:
Nomad logistics depend on constant moving of their horses. Bog them down, their horses start dying.
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Thats pretty much true for everyone that does raids. According to some sources, the english fought the vikings by bogging them with endless castles and leaving little to actually raid before the king could muster a larger force to kick them out. The vikings aren't an exact analogue as cavalry is a pretty different beast altogether compared to longboats, but the unpredictable nature as to where they strike is the same.

Actually, now that I think about it, our lands should already be fairly meh for nomads. Anything that can be eaten by horses is already being eaten by cows (sacred herds are expensive for a reason) and sheep. The grain is an option but while the energy rich seeds are great in terms of energy, they fuck up a horses digestive system, and those are very finicky. They can eat a bit of straw, but thats once again a hit to their digestive system as the bacteria have to adapt.

@Academia Nut

How much worthwhile grassland do we even have within nomad reach?

Would intentional reduction of grass supplies something that occurs to our military experts and be acceptable to the priesthood? We are already doing it a bit with the forests as natural barriers, but did anyone get the idea that they could shape the environment to be less suitable to cavalry?
 
Raichu1972 said:
To be honest, at this point it just sounds like you're trying to justfify the Second Sons bullshit for whatever reason.
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I'm arguing that we really should be thinking of the responsibility we have in creating them. It may be easy to lay the blame on them for being greedy but that overlooks the actions that and are part of the cause for them.

The fact that the Second Sons are sons of yeomen highlights that (I thought they were sons of patricians). In earlier posts I spoke on how yeomentry was/could be a direct result of our community property practices. The reason why the Second Sons wanted land is because their older brothers inherited land.

They weren't already disloyal.
 
BlueFlamingWings said:
I'm arguing that we really should be thinking of the responsibility we have in creating them. It may be easy to lay the blame on them for being greedy but that overlooks the actions that and are part of the cause for them.

The fact that the Second Sons are sons of yeomen highlights that (I thought they were sons of patricians). In earlier posts I spoke on how yeomentry was/could be a direct result of our community property practices. The reason why the Second Sons wanted land is because their older brothers inherited land.

They weren't already disloyal.
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I'm not sure why you thought they were the Sons of Patricians, considering that they would just push for war from within instead of going out in small groups to raid and enslave. Might be a reading comprehension problem?

The fact that they disobeyed the orders of the King and went out to pillage and enslave our neighbors shows that they were quite disloyal.
Of course there was a reasoning for them doing what they did, but having a reason doesn't absolve them of their shittyness.

Let me give an example:
Let's say Western Wall really wanted some of Freehill's land. It was good land, better than anyrthing they could claim on their own, and they know they aren't allowed to declare war on others by decree of the King.
Western Wall decides to declare war and claim Freehills anyways, because they want more good land. On the way, they decide to enslave the entire populace of Freehills, because having slaves makes them more money since they get a supply of unpaid workers for their new farms.

Is any of this the fault of the crown, for not helping the precious Western Wall in attacking our neighbors?
 
Raichu1972 said:
I'm not sure why you thought they were the Sons of Patricians, considering that they would just push for war from within instead of going out in small groups to raid and enslave. Might be a reading comprehension problem?
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I thought that because of the next update where the patrician sons were gone and we had to vote between two Redorms: to either arm the women or arm the Urban Poor. Maybe they started leaving in droves when they saw the yeomen youths succeeding?

@Academia Nut?

Also, I won't bother arguing against your obvious straw man as it is against a option I didn't vote for. I voted for the Civil War initially before switching to Letting Them Go since our Legitamacy loss was negated through Proclaiming Glory. But I still stand by the fact that all three were terrible options and we shouldn't have reached that point to begin with. As a society, we should have given them options other than becoming disloyal and attacking.
 
BlueFlamingWings said:
I thought that because of the next update where the patrician sons were gone and we had to vote between two Redorms: to either arm the women or arm the Urban Poor. Maybe they started leaving in droves when they saw the yeomen youths succeeding?

@Academia Nut?

Also, I won't bother arguing against your obvious straw man as it is against a option I didn't vote for. I voted for the Civil War initially before switching to Letting Them Go since our Legitamacy loss was negated through Proclaiming Glory. But I still stand by the fact that all three were terrible options and we shouldn't have reached that point to begin with. As a society, we should have given them options other than becoming disloyal and attacking.
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Yeomen are the ones who rise up and then become the officers through connections with Patrician Sons.
With a lot of the Yeomen leaving and in general starting to seem untrustworthy, the Patricians decided to create the reforms, with the First allowing Patrician daughters to become officers so that the Yeomen could be barred from becoming officers all together, reducing their influence in the military and making them in general uncoordinated and much more easy to put down.

The Second reform, which we are doing now, replaces the Yeomen as our primary military force, making it so we are no longer reliant on them for our military and can put them down if they start up trouble again, since the Urban Poor can be more easily controlled than the Yeomen. AN explicitly said what the reforms did and why the Patricians wanted them, so you must have either not read the thread or had a reading comprehension problem somewhere.

It's not a strawman at all, since the same premise of "part of our society feels like they don't have enough stuff and don't have the means to get more stuff, decides to attack our neighbors against the wishes of their King for wealth, land, and glory" can be found in both my example and the Second Sons crisis.

What would you have done to prevent this from happening? Declare war on one of our neighbors? Integrate more land that we didn't have the road connectivity or centralization to manage?
It's easy to say that we should have done "vague solution", but it's harder to actually clearly state what the solution to a problem we didn't really even know we had (I know AN threw a few vague hints) would be.
 
They could even have demanded we give them land in the Far North (turning the trading post into a colony), or in Txolla, and I'd at least have considered it. Even if it was still shitty of them and potentially would have pissed off subordinates.

But no, they just went out and attacked (and apparently enslaved!) random people, trying to drag us into a (civil) war.
 
PrimalShadow said:
We did give them options. They could have gone to the city and gotten jobs, either as apprentices if they have the connections our unskilled labor if they didn't. Just because they didn't like the options doesn't mean they weren't there.
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Raichu1972 said:
What would you have done to prevent this from happening? Declare war on one of our neighbors? Integrate more land that we didn't have the road connectivity or centralization to manage?
It's easy to say that we should have done "vague solution", but it's harder to actually clearly state what the solution to a problem we didn't really even know we had (I know AN threw a few vague hints) would be.
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Both of which are fair enough, though I do think the Reforms are on the right track in order to make going to the city seem like a viable alternative to them.

As I said before. what matters the most here is the story being told. Each turn last generations and in hundreds of years the West Ymaryn aren't going to remember the details of the split (or if they do due to libraries the truth will be spun to their benefit). Also, the longer they stay separate the more likely it is that they will develop their own culture and unique identity. We've controlled the People for millenniums there was a cut off point somewhere in the past where this could have been prevented.

...Hmm. Now that I think of it that may be a good topic of debate for future Ymaryn historians.
 
BlueFlamingWings said:
We've controlled the People for millenniums there was a cut off point somewhere in the past where this could have been prevented.
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I mean, we know of 3 different ways we could've dealt with it:
1) Predicted the Artisan Games overflow better and reduced our stats more
2) Immediately done the civil war
3) Immediately taken the Religion before it was ready and watch as three other things got set on fire (but it would've been smaller fires and we could've restarted the Golden Age fairly quickly)

Y'know, we're gonna have to start worrying about overflows again soon. The triad's just about full, leaving just Diplo, Wealth, and Econ. And Econ's definitely gonna be full soon since we really want that Priest quest.
 
notgreat said:
I mean, we know of 3 different ways we could've dealt with it:
1) Predicted the Artisan Games overflow better and reduced our stats more
2) Immediately done the civil war
3) Immediately taken the Religion before it was ready and watch as three other things got set on fire (but it would've been smaller fires and we could've restarted the Golden Age fairly quickly)

Y'know, we're gonna have to start worrying about overflows again soon. The triad's just about full, leaving just Diplo, Wealth, and Econ. And Econ's definitely gonna be full soon since we really want that Priest quest.
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We can always switch Active Policy away from Balanced to something stats-consuming, like Megaproject Support (DAAAAAM) or Infrastructure (never can go wrong with this one), and that'll deal with the problem.
Besides, if we reenter Gilded/Golden Age, we can get a separate Megaproject track, so there is that drain avenue...although Gilded Age is not really a thing worth striving for.
 
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