Remove ads

Paths of Civilization

Reader mode
Warning: Your spaghetti isn't quite done yet
  • Staff Post
    • McLuvin said:
    Dude the numbers of Patricians freed up would be nowhere near enough to plug up the Yeoman losses. So again that's why it doesn't work.

    except the Amazon reforms can't replace the sheer numbers and thus we still rely on militia just with a slight bolstering of Patrician elie and a major boost to Patrician power.

    Except from the fact we control their food supply, aside from the fact we control their weapons supply, aside from the fact we are watching them as they are under the very noses of our centralised controlling system of governance.

    There are more shackles on the Urban Poor than a women bolstered still Yeoman based military.

    officers include low class positions such as sergeant, also what man in this age would follow an untested, unproven woman who can't even beat them in a spar? It's an institutional problem as well as one where they still need to prove themselves as competant leaders to be considered as anything other than a joke

    Because he was being paid to be loyal, was scared of the Ymaryn and was outnumbered by those in his tribe who felt loyalty to us due to Phygrif
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    your spaghetti isn't quite done yet Although this is basically spaghetti posting, it's rather minor, please keep in mind that spaghetti posting like this fails to adress the holistic point of a larger argument in favour of breaking it up into tiny parts and is generally considered bad faith debating. You won't be infracted but please refrain in the future. I have returned to this thread proper, and have a good day.
     
  • Staff Post
    • 10ebbor10 said:
    We run the risk of losing them because they're maintained through continuity, rather than through the temples. I think they follow the King.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    They follow their local Patrician actually.

    Blackbirds are a father-to-son order ever since the road situation got to the point where they can't be centrally trained, so they don't really have a state level political order, but they act as the enforcers and internal security officers for their Patricians.
     
    ctulhuslp said:
    Look at how much our vassals are paying us. You see it? Zero. Zilch. Nothing, as far as I can see.

    Why would the Trelli break the pattern and pay us anything? Vassals explicitly are allies in wars but have their own agenda.

    And even if I am missing something and other vassals are paying us, there is another problem.
    What possible reasons would locals have to pay us instead of, like, hiring all the mercs to fuck us up as soon as they get back on their feet? They are going to resent us for takung their money even if manage to make them give us those moneys.
    For a 'historical' example, remember how we vassalised Txolla? We've invested a ton in them, and they live in no-less-wonderous Mesopotamia. Trelli are going to be more independece-minded due to distance and having their independency history longer than Lowland Minors. And less prone to giving away anything to us due to the culture of greed.
    And that's yet anothet problem: cultural friction.

    So there:
    • Why would they give us their money after conquest?
    • What stops them from rehiring a half-dozen merc companies and declaring independence?
    • What will we do with cultural friction?
    • How will we defend them from all comers?
    I don't see valid answers to any of those questions beyond people assuming it all runs on videogame logic where painting map your color means people are brainwashed to obey you and pay you taxes.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Why are you quoting ME on this?
    :confused:

    Shard said:
    We want the guild actions on Efficient Charcoal Kilns to pre-empt the Wood Shortage due to come soon.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    If we have time for Kilns, we build Kilns. If it takes delaying kilns a bit to save us Stability and resolve the clusterfuck that is happening in Trell, that is more than than worth it.
     
    PrimalShadow said:
    Why are you quoting ME on this?
    :confused:


    If we have time for Kilns, we build Kilns. If it takes delaying kilns a bit to save us Stability and resolve the clusterfuck that is happening in Trell, that is more than than worth it.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    Because I wanted to argue aboyt Econ bu forgot about it while I was typing response to eborr :oops:

    So about Econ...we will see how is the new army cost. And also how many Econ do we lose to ransom stability hits to WY. Maybe you are right and we will have spare for generating wealth via guild actions (then again, we need to take kilns someday, so there is that too), but I am far from sure.

    Regarding Trelli: I am all for completely stopping expansion while we digest what we have. I really want Mesopotamia and direct control over the whole not-Caucasus (latter because it's defensible against cavalry and, well, horse-riding nomads) before we take any more lands. Which, yes, means missing opportunities. We cannot take all opportuinities.
    Plus, as I've said in earlier post, there is a number (about 4 at least) of questions without answers regarding holding and exploiting Trelli (and this assumes we'll take them). I'd rather not.
    My long-term seafaring plan is diploannexing Harmurri sometime in the next two thousand years. We are not in a hurry in this regard.

    PrimalShadow said:
    It depends entirely on the cost. If we have to go out and actually conquer, we shouldn't do it. If we can just pay mercenaries to take the city or get said city via diplomacy, that is a whole 'nother story.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    I can very tentatively get behind diplomacy, but mercs...again, it will depend on funds we have on hand.
    Plus, again, taking Trelli is the easiest part.
     
    ctulhuslp said:
    So about Econ...we will see how is the new army cost. And also how many Econ do we lose to ransom stability hits to WY.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    How many times does this have to be debunked before it stops being brought up?

    We get ONE Econ-loss to WY per turn. Judging by what happened this turn, that loss happens shortly before midturn, after we've already got returns from start-of-turn actions.

    We already had the Econ-loss event this turn; we are incapable of losing any more Econ this turn.
    Next turn, the econ loss will happen AFTER our Expand Economy actions and the like pay out.

    So when planning our econ expenditures next turn, we do not have to consider "random stability hits". It doesn't matter, in the same way that how much econ we get from our own Refugee influx at that time doesn't matter.


    The only way that Econ drain matters is when planning our Econ for the turn AFTER (i.e. not the coming turn which we are going to see in another 2 or so updates, but the next one after that). If you want to plan for THAT turn, sure, start thinking about refugee losses (and gains). But in practice, the effect on that turn is much more determined by how many expand econ actions we and our provinces take than our immediate econ expenditures.

    ctulhuslp said:
    Maybe you are right and we will have spare for generating wealth via guild actions (then again, we need to take kilns someday, so there is that too), but I am far from sure.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    I suppose it DOES depend on what we want to do for the M-reforms, if anything at all; if the expenses there are large enough and we don't get a lot of refugees this turn and Steelblooded doesn't pull through for us, we might find ourselves without enough Econ to spare a point or two for extra wealth generation.
     
    PrimalShadow said:
    How many times does this have to be debunked before it stops being brought up?

    We get ONE Econ-loss to WY per turn. Judging by what happened this turn, that loss happens shortly before midturn, after we've already got returns from start-of-turn actions.

    We already had the Econ-loss event this turn; we are incapable of losing any more Econ this turn.
    Next turn, the econ loss will happen AFTER our Expand Economy actions and the like pay out.

    So when planning our econ expenditures next turn, we do not have to consider "random stability hits". It doesn't matter, in the same way that how much econ we get from our own Refugee influx at that time doesn't matter.


    The only way that Econ drain matters is when planning our Econ for the turn AFTER (i.e. not the coming turn which we are going to see in another 2 or so updates, but the next one after that). If you want to plan for THAT turn, sure, start thinking about refugee losses (and gains). But in practice, the effect on that turn is much more determined by how many expand econ actions we and our provinces take than our immediate econ expenditures.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    Well, yes, I know, and I was planning about the turn after. We'll likely get another SS trigger with -1 stability, for example.
    And I did it because your post I was respondinf to before that listed -6 from Panem which applies once per turn and, I think, already applied this turn...or did it?
    If it didn't we are in a wee bit of trouble because we need 12 Econ at midturn+regular after just to compensate.
     
    ctulhuslp said:
    Well, yes, I know, and I was planning about the turn after.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    If you are planning ahead two turns instead of talking about the next turn, you need to quantify that explicitly. Practically speaking, I think it is far to early to be thinking about that; there are enough unknowns to make it hard to plan for next turn, much less the turn after.

    ctulhuslp said:
    And I did it because your post I was respondinf to before that listed -6 from Panem which applies once per turn and, I think, already applied this turn...or did it?
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    My earlier post on income counted Econ for next turn, not the turn after. Next turn, our econ income will be -6, consisting of -4 from Panem and -2 from non-free-True-City Upkeep. That will be offset by positive refugee income, which comes at the same time as other income; as a result, this cost will conservatively be reduced to -4. Since we pay that BEFORE we get our resource payments from e.g. Expand Economy, we need to make sure that we can spend it without going negative.

    None of this has anything to do with the turn after next. This is all the coming turn, and on the coming turn we have our Econ costs well in hand.
     
    Last edited:
    @Academia Nut how exactly does our vassal system work right now? Is it different from other nation's vassal systems? Or are we going to be seeing more about it next turn with the reforms?
     
    ctulhuslp said:
    what does the scouter Martial advisor say about Western Ymaryn's or Freehill's powerlevel ability to take and hold Trelli?
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    Western Ymaryn are too far away and will not be participating. Freehills probably doesn't have the strength, but they are the closest organized group, so they probably have the best chance of current possible competitors.

    Citino said:
    how exactly does our vassal system work right now? Is it different from other nation's vassal systems? Or are we going to be seeing more about it next turn with the reforms?
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    Hmmm... yeah, it will come up in the next update.
     
    Academia Nut said:
    Western Ymaryn are too far away and will not be participating. Freehills probably doesn't have the strength, but they are the closest organized group, so they probably have the best chance of current possible competitors.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    So a century later after rebellion ex-slaves are likely to own Trelli?
    Karma is a bitch :cool:

    Dutch said:
    Invisitext
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    D-did AN forget about two civs in the area?
    Maybe we should make a spreadshit or something. Setting is quite too huge to keep in mind.
     
    ctulhuslp said:
    So a century later after rebellion ex-slaves are likely to own Trelli?
    Karma is a bitch :cool:
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    Wish we can send arms or something. Better than having Trelli be an uncontrolled chaos, and point out that the Ymaryn are quite serious about their sincerity.


    ctulhuslp said:
    D-did AN forget about two civs in the area?
    Maybe we should make a spreadshit or something. Setting is quite too huge to keep in mind.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    Let's list all the civs in the region, historical or otherwise.

    Khemetri, Hamurri, Mountain Horse, Metal Worker(why do they keep losing to nomads?), Metal Wolves, Xohyr, Thunder Speaker, Thunder Horse, and Spirit Talker, That Eastern Salt People(TM), Highland Kingdom, and Western Confederacy.

    So, um, who's likely to have been forgotten by AN?
     
    Kiba said:
    Wish we can send arms or something. Better than having Trelli be an uncontrolled chaos, and point out that the Ymaryn are quite serious about their sincerity.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Woth Ironworks we probably can afford it, and it was us who freed them, so...sounds nice.

    Kiba said:
    Let's list all the civs in the region, historical or otherwise.

    Khemetri, Hamurri, Mountain Horse, Metal Worker(why do they keep losing to nomads?), Metal Wolves, Xohyr, Thunder Speaker, Thunder Horse, and Spirit Talker, That Eastern Salt People(TM), Highland Kingdom, and Western Confederacy.

    So, um, who's likely to have been forgotten by AN?
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    Eastern Salt People are nomads so, ehhh, who the heck knows what's up with them.

    I am pretty sure it's nomads in general: we are overdue on another attack by them, this time by unlimited light cavalry.
     
    Kiba said:
    Khemetri, Hamurri, Mountain Horse, Metal Worker(why do they keep losing to nomads?), Metal Wolves, Xohyr, Thunder Speaker, Thunder Horse, and Spirit Talker, That Eastern Salt People(TM), Highland Kingdom, and Western Confederacy.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    1. You're missing Free Hills or whatever they're called.
    2. My money is on the various Horse Nations.
     
    Kiba said:
    Let's list all the civs in the region, historical or otherwise.

    Khemetri, Hamurri, Mountain Horse, Metal Worker(why do they keep losing to nomads?), Metal Wolves, Xohyr, Thunder Speaker, Thunder Horse, and Spirit Talker, That Eastern Salt People(TM), Highland Kingdom, and Western Confederacy.

    So, um, who's likely to have been forgotten by AN?
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Well, you forgot the Hathatyn.
     
    ctulhuslp said:
    Woth Ironworks we probably can afford it, and it was us who freed them, so...sounds nice.

    Eastern Salt People are nomads so, ehhh, who the heck knows what's up with them.

    I am pretty sure it's nomads in general: we are overdue on another attack by them, this time by unlimited light cavalry.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    Unfortunately, we don't have a concept of foreign internal defense or military aids nor do we have the econ or wealth for that.
     
    Reader mode
    You must login or register to reply here.
    Remove ads
    Back
    Top