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Paths of Civilization

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DakkaMania said:
@Kiba

A while ago you brought up a green industrial revolution and how much forest we'd need for that.

I'd argue we are better off using every energy resource we have and do a speedrun through the industrial revolution. The faster we are, the sooner we can switch to cleaner gas and eventually electricity. Given the huge rivers we have in our territory, hydropower will be a big factor even during the revolution as we can use that for some processes. Especially as we are already settling heavy industry close to rivers to take advantage of trip hammers.

Another reason is that others will start their own revolution a few decades later if RL is any indication, and they are unlikely to care much at all about carbon emissions or whatever. So we both fall back strategically as we are not as competitive, but also serve to drag the entire misery out instead of accepting a relatively short, sharp increase and using the tech boom to switch as much as possible to electricity sooner and making that available to the world.
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The problem with starting an industrial revolution speedrun is the damage to our environmental trait.
 
SeptimusMagisto said:
[X] [King] Embrace the Absurd

[X] [War] Offer reparations for damages and universal manumission of Trelli slaves (-15 Wealth, -1 Stability, chance of further loss, -7-8 Econ Expansion, 7 temp Econ damage, +7-8 Econ next turn, current trader quest fails, ???)

I almost hope to lose the war vote, but the narrative weight of this choice tempts me so much. The Ymaryn paying a terrible price in blood and treasure to secure the freedom of others just because it's the right thing to do? Proving that we entered this war not in hopes of material gains but to protect the inaliable rights the gods bestowed on all of mankind? It's just irresistible.

Besides, it doesn't seem like this war would get us Trelli proper. Let's save that war until right after we discover steel and before anyone else has a chance to steal it.
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It goes well with the Absurd, certainly. We lost thousands of lives, pay a lot of treasure, free the slaves and see it all for naught as the Trelli just raid for more slaves.
 
We are Rome!

We suffered appalling losses and decided to keep churning at Carthage who is both a strategic threat and somebody we have a major personal beef with.
 
[X] [King] Embrace Sorrow
[X] [War] Keep fighting (2 Econ temp damage, +2 Econ next turn)

Not seeing the point in stopping now.
Poor Yshuyn.
 
Kiba said:
We are Rome!

We suffered appalling losses and decided to keep churning at Carthage who is both a strategic threat and somebody we have a major personal beef with.
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If we ran over the HK, that would be a comparable narrative. As is, this is some sort of religious war blundering that we've been forced into.
 
Kiba said:
The problem with starting an industrial revolution speedrun is the damage to our environmental trait.
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Yeah, but here we have to weigh the options. Going it slow does actually more damage as we (and the world) are stuck longer in the really dirty phase.

Besides, we won't know about the environmental damage besides the obvious pollution. And we already work on reducing that. But odds are, people will see coal mines as relatively better for the environment as they put less strain on the forests. They won't know about the global greenhouse effect.

Even then, if we unlock the Terraform action, we can plant a lot of forests that soak up the carbon released from coal. If the steppe is a forest instead of, well, steppe, thats a lot of carbon we can remove from circulation.


So, any guesses on what action will be taken by AN/Genius Admin?

I think the optimal path would be:

Main Theatre for +1Stab -1 Culture +4 Culture
Secondary Enforce Justice for +1 Stab and Cent for PSN
Secondary Found Mercenary Company -8 Martial

Provinces:
Main War Mission
Secondary Raise Army +5 Martial +1 Culture
Secondary Raise Army +5 Martial +1 Culture
Secondary Raise Army +5 Martial +1 Culture

Guild:
More Boats

This would leave us with a net +7 Martial for the Main pool, a Mercenary Company that can rotate out one of the active Banners, a Main War Mission with plenty of Martial, Max Stability, Culture should still be at maxed out so GA continues and Boats for the Naval side of the war.
 
[X] [War] Keep fighting (2 Econ temp damage, +2 Econ next turn)
[X] [King] Embrace the Absurd

Embrace the madness and insanety, little king. They are the best friends and support, anyone could ever have. And with the right twist of mind, they will make you be1t?4.
 
We can Netflix and chill.

Oh shit he's basically a magical girl protagonist in the wrong anime.
NewAgeOfPower said:
If we ran over the HK, that would be a comparable narrative. As is, this is some sort of religious war blundering that we've been forced into.
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The vote to free slaves was a near animous vote. We were not forced into it. Continuing the war with a terror action vote also won. No one forced people to vote the way they did.
 
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[X] [King] Embrace Sorrow

[X] [War] Offer reparations for damages and universal manumission of Trelli slaves (-15 Wealth, -1 Stability, chance of further loss, -7-8 Econ Expansion, 7 temp Econ damage, +7-8 Econ next turn, current trader quest fails, ???)
[X] [War] Withdraw (-5 Wealth, -5 Prestige, -1 Religious Authority, 4 Econ temp damage, chance of stability loss, +4-5 Econ next turn, current trader quest fails, ???)

GG. I guess we had to fail sometime. :cry::cry::cry:

I thought the slave option was the least intensive war option. That we would not really get into a pitch battle like the other options and focus on helping the slaves. Instead everything has gone to hell.
 
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[X] [King] Embrace the Absurd
SeptimusMagisto said:
[X] [King] Embrace the Absurd

[X] [War] Offer reparations for damages and universal manumission of Trelli slaves (-15 Wealth, -1 Stability, chance of further loss, -7-8 Econ Expansion, 7 temp Econ damage, +7-8 Econ next turn, current trader quest fails, ???)

I almost hope to lose the war vote, but the narrative weight of this choice tempts me so much. The Ymaryn paying a terrible price in blood and treasure to secure the freedom of others just because it's the right thing to do? Proving that we entered this war not in hopes of material gains but to protect the inaliable rights the gods bestowed on all of mankind? It's just irresistible.
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whoa

[X] [War] Offer reparations for damages and universal manumission of Trelli slaves (-15 Wealth, -1 Stability, chance of further loss, -7-8 Econ Expansion, 7 temp Econ damage, +7-8 Econ next turn, current trader quest fails, ???)
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Killer_Whale on Aug 20, 2017 at 7:17 AM, finished with 104999 posts and 74 votes.
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DakkaMania said:
Yeah, but here we have to weigh the options. Going it slow does actually more damage as we (and the world) are stuck longer in the really dirty phase.

Besides, we won't know about the environmental damage besides the obvious pollution. And we already work on reducing that. But odds are, people will see coal mines as relatively better for the environment as they put less strain on the forests. They won't know about the global greenhouse effect.

Even then, if we unlock the Terraform action, we can plant a lot of forests that soak up the carbon released from coal. If the steppe is a forest instead of, well, steppe, thats a lot of carbon we can remove from circulation.
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The problem with coal is not so much the carbon. We can deal with that. It's the pollution and posioning that come with it. If we stick to charcoal, we can run a much cleaner industrial revolution. Beside, with the estimation I done, we should be able to run such a revolution into the early 19th century before we are forced to switch to coal.

Meanwhile, we can stave off by developing the metallurgy and math so that we can develop a partly solar thermal powered civilization ala Israel's solar heating industry.
 
[X] [King] Embrace Numbness
[X] [War] Keep fighting (2 Econ temp damage, +2 Econ next turn)
 
[X] [War] Keep fighting (2 Econ temp damage, +2 Econ next turn)

Withdrawing right now is a good way to make us look like a bunch of fools, and we're still going strong in any case.
 
Kiba said:
The problem with coal is not so much the carbon. We can deal with that. It's the pollution and posioning that come with it. If we stick to charcoal, we can run a much cleaner industrial revolution. Beside, with the estimation I done, we should be able to run such a revolution into the early 19th century before we are forced to switch to coal.

Meanwhile, we can stave off by developing the metallurgy and math so that we can develop a partly solar thermal powered civilization ala Israel's solar heating industry.
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I still consider that a bit silly, tbh.

Thats a non trivial task even today. For a early 20th century civ, thats nearly impossible to pay and runs counter to the whole idea of the industrial revolution. That being things becoming absurdly cheap compared to the past. If we make energy too expensive, the revolution won't happen.

Solar-thermal has also the gigantic problem that it's not portable, unlike various fossil fuels or electricity. And once we have an electricity grid we've solved the most glaring issue anyway.

We might be better off using biogas as that is also an extension of our advanced sewer systems and Black Soil production.

Natural gas and oil are also possible as China extracted that stuff with drills as early as the middle ages. So we should be able to manage once the IR kicks off.
 
Embrace Arxyn
[X] [King] Embrace Anger
[X] [War] Keep fighting (2 Econ temp damage, +2 Econ next turn)

The Tyrant King was wicked. He was foolish. He was profane. But he was also strong.

I fear we need the power of the Tyrant King for this task, to embrace Evil in order to create good.
 
[X] [King] Embrace Anger
[X] [War] Keep fighting (2 Econ temp damage, +2 Econ next turn)
 
Warning: Hi again @academia nut
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    • [X] [King] Embrace Numbness
    [X] [King] Embrace Anger
    [X] [War] Keep fighting (2 Econ temp damage, +2 Econ next turn)

    I say, Fuck the slaves, they can all die for all I care. Ungrateful etc.
    Wrong choice to try and save them.

    Me, I say Crush Trelli and everyone we're at war with. Burn them all down, like we did X.
     
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    Current Tally:
    Adhoc vote count started by gutza1 on Aug 20, 2017 at 9:15 AM, finished with 105010 posts and 79 votes.
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    Lilithium said:
    We can Netflix and chill.

    Oh shit he's basically a magical girl protagonist in the wrong anime.

    The vote to free slaves was a near animous vote. We were not forced into it. Continuing the war with a terror action vote also won. No one forced people to vote the way they did.
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    I have a feeling that the unanimous votes for freeing slaves are cause most of us voters are Americans due to history.
    I'd say most others don't feel it so strongly as we haven't been exposed to the sensitizing agent.
     
    DakkaMania said:
    Supplying the troops is something we can do as our ships simply outrun theirs. They can see the ships coming, but they just zoom past. Closer to the cities this simply doesn't work very well as we are forced into a pitched naval battle. Even that we can sorta do, but our ships are vastly better at hit and run attacks, which is not an option when landing troops.

    It's also a function of the local geography. The Straits have always been nigh impossible to take from the sea. Hence why we march along the coast. There we can be regularly resupplied and work our way towards Trelli itself.

    As to plundering: Presumably we help ourselves to the enemy Companies supplies where possible, buy/confiscate supplies from occupied settlements and have the rest shipped in. AN said we had trouble projecting force that far, hence why we won't deploy a lot of War Missions, but culturally we don't leave people with so little they starve. Also, the way it works in this time period, conquered settlements didn't sabotage their invaders at every opportunity. Both for fear of reprisals and because the things they sabotage are the things they need to life. And while the army will just move on, they are stuck on their burned fields.
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    Pretty much this. We CAN move forces but they have to march overland after dropoff which takes time, and we need to take some of their ports to ease the supply lines along the way. The Trelli are aggressively patrolling all landing sites they can, but if we take the coastal villages we can land our ships unopposed there
    WeaponX1023 said:
    I thought the slave option was the least intensive war option. That we would not really get into a pitch battle like the other options and focus on helping the slaves. Instead everything has gone to hell.
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    Unfortunately it was the opposite. If you wanted a quick, decisive war, we'd have gone for Trell itself, which since they were not expecting it, would not have the necessary naval patrols to stop us from just taking their city by storm before they got their pants on.
    Except AN knew our mentality and added a note that if we had gone for Trell the slaves would be dead by the time we finished the war.

    Going for the slaves was the slowest, most extensive route because the force being liberated cannot fight, has minimal support or organization, and outright costs resources to support rather than supplying the oncoming forces. In cases where settlements surrender, we actually would need to leave warriors behind to prevent the freed slaves from slaughtering their oppressors.
    Kiba said:
    The problem with coal is not so much the carbon. We can deal with that. It's the pollution and posioning that come with it. If we stick to charcoal, we can run a much cleaner industrial revolution. Beside, with the estimation I done, we should be able to run such a revolution into the early 19th century before we are forced to switch to coal.

    Meanwhile, we can stave off by developing the metallurgy and math so that we can develop a partly solar thermal powered civilization ala Israel's solar heating industry.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    I doubt the solar heating approach is going to be feasible for a long long time.
    DakkaMania said:
    I still consider that a bit silly, tbh.

    Thats a non trivial task even today. For a early 20th century civ, thats nearly impossible to pay and runs counter to the whole idea of the industrial revolution. That being things becoming absurdly cheap compared to the past. If we make energy too expensive, the revolution won't happen.

    Solar-thermal has also the gigantic problem that it's not portable, unlike various fossil fuels or electricity. And once we have an electricity grid we've solved the most glaring issue anyway.

    We might be better off using biogas as that is also an extension of our advanced sewer systems and Black Soil production.

    Natural gas and oil are also possible as China extracted that stuff with drills as early as the middle ages. So we should be able to manage once the IR kicks off.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Charcoal however WOULD prop things up for a long while. I don't think we need to be too concerned about it for a while.
     
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