- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
Eh? Is that a thing we have?
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
Concho117
Going really fast!
- Location
- Somewhere in Orbit
We do not distribute.
AN said we have something like 2000 years to get to the modern era a while back. Incidentally, the Tang Dynasty invented gunpowder in the 9th century. So, assuming we start from 0 AD. It will takes eight hundred years, or about forty turns worth of updates to get to gunpowder, and a few hundred years before firearm technology developed to make horse archers obsolete.
Arguably, we have something like less than two thousand years to get to the modern era at this point.
Arguably, we have something like less than two thousand years to get to the modern era at this point.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
*digs it out*
Literally the artisan's library of "Things not to do".
pbluekan
Somethin's Fucky ...
- Location
- Trumpistan
"Scribe, solve for X."
"Which one, sir?"
pbluekan
Somethin's Fucky ...
- Location
- Trumpistan
AN stated we started at 4000bce ish and we have played through roughly 2000 years. If we still corresponded to a Gregorian calendar, I think we would still be somewhere in the range of 2000bce time wise, and around 500bce to 500ce tech wise.
DocMatoi
Theoretical Lover of Girls
- Location
- within 2 hours of the White House
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Yeah, according to desdydyn.
I don't think anybody in the ancient world IRL actually have a book on false and dead ends, do they? It's amazing that we systematically document it.
pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon
It's definitely true, but... INCREDIBLY expensive. I'd just as soon skip it. We have less need for 200 elites with excellent swords than 10,000 with good ones.
Hmmm... Maybe I'll write up a user-friendly guide to the crazy world of Iron-carbon compounds. Tomorrow maybe? Here's a teaser:
This phase diagram basically describes the options we have available pre-heat-treating.
L is liquid, and alpha, gamma and Fe3C are all crystalline solid phases of steel with different properties. Pure wrought Iron is on the far left, and is pure Ferrite (alpha) phase. The case on a case-hardened blade will be ceramic crystals of Fe3C (cementite) in a Ferrite matrix. Maybe around the 2-3% mark (though, since we're just getting the process down, we're probably closer to 5-6 a lot of the time. The junk they were throwing away was too far to the right on this chart, with large grains of cementite rendering it brittle and unusable.)
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BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Ohhhh yom nom nom.It's definitely true, but... INCREDIBLY expensive. I'd just as soon skip it. We have less need for 200 elites with excellent swords than 10,000 with good ones.
Hmmm... Maybe I'll write up a user-friendly guide to the crazy world of Iron-carbon compounds. Tomorrow maybe? Here's a teaser:
This phase diagram basically describes the options we have available pre-heat-treating.
L is liquid, and alpha, gamma and Fe3C are all crystalline solid phases of steel with different properties. Pure wrought Iron is on the far left, and is pure Ferrite (alpha) phase. The case on a case-hardened blade will be ceramic crystals of Fe3C (cementite) in a Ferrite matrix. Maybe around the 2-3% mark (though, since we're just getting the process down, we're probably closer to 5-6 a lot of the time. The junk they were throwing away was too far to the right on this chart, with large grains of cementite rendering it brittle and unusable.
I've thrown these things around before in the thread. I like.
This stuff is super fun for me to talk about. I liked my materials class.
Family Life and Education - Early Iron Age
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Family Life and Education
Patricians
The patricians occupy their position in society through a combination of network contacts, managerial competence (that they hoard obsessively), and the ability influence enormous amounts of resources both personally and through their positions in society. As such, the raising of their children is a massive concern to them. The first two male children are typically educated similarly, the so called "heir and the spare", with both receiving extensive education in literacy, administrative mathematics, general physical education and basic combat skill, and most importantly introduction to the extensive network of social contacts that make up the core of the patrician power base. Third and fourth sons are typically encouraged to make a deeper study of the martial arts, particularly of elite skills like chariot archery, so that they might make new contacts among the warriors and have a fast track up the social ladder should they prove proficient. Fifth and further sons (that survive to adulthood) are typically educated more practically, their fathers and grandfathers busy with their older brothers and thus setting them up as apprentices with higher standing "practical" trades, such as clerks or certain artisan groups. While not as prestigious, these sons can help keep influence networks fresh and ensure that patrician families are represented in the middle management of the guilds as well as the upper management. Many of these later sons also show signs of spiritual power and are thus sent off to the priesthood, where the contacts of their fathers help them rise up within that hierarchy faster than less connected peers. Patrician daughters are typically the glue that holds the powerful families together, and are thus given their own education in administration for the running of households and aesthetically pleasing physical education to make themselves more attractive for discerning husbands and to help promote the bearing of strong children.
Warriors
There are few hereditary warrior families that don't either aspire to become patricians or go extinct in the process, but there are many only a few generations old that are working their way up from humble beginnings. Typically a warrior family starts with a lower level militia member finding success as a caravan guard, being called up for war, or being recommended to a mercenary company. While many children are often sired during the time as active warriors, few actually follow their fathers. For the social climbing warrior, around the age of thirty to thirty five they will settle down into positions training the next generation and have 'official' children. They will attempt to pass on their skills to their sons so that they can start their careers in a more advantageous position - preferably starting in one of the Banner companies rather than being recommended in later in life. Typically the preferred position is to become a chariot driver so as to have contact with the most elite portions of society, and if they can be promoted to chariot archer from there even better. Chariot archer fathers will typically have chariot archer sons, but from there they will push for their grandsons to either marry into or found their own patrician influence network. Daughters are a typical bargaining chip in all of this, as a fit daughter from a warrior father can be an enticing marriage prospect for a patrician chariot archer whose higher status marriage prospects are not looking great.
Artisans and Clerks
As the "urban middle class", the artisans and clerks tend to take a very practical view to their children and their education. Their children will inherit their skills, or the skills of a friend in a similar career if the family needs to diversify. With their expert training and family support within their organizations, the idea is for their children to be in a better starting position and will be able to rise up in their organization's hierarchy. Theoretically a sufficiently skilled smith could rise to become a guild master and from there join the Royal Council as an advisor, having a shot at the kingship, although the upper level positions are dominated by political connections rather than technical skill. Still, at the top of the guild middle management system is where the patrician's networks begin and thus being in such a position gives one the opportunity to actually develop the political connections required to rise further. Both boys and girls tend to be trained similarly, although girls most often go off to skills considered more appropriate to their gender, such as the weavers guild.
Yeomanry
The "rural middle class" that dominates much of the population is most concerned with the maintenance of their land and ensuring that all of their children will have good farms of their own when they grow up. Since children are often farmhands and the eldest will typically take over the current farm to care for their parents in old age, this means that one of the biggest concerns of the yeomanry is ensuring that the People as a whole have more land to be settled. For very large and successful families, this typically means that some of their younger children will have to seek work elsewhere. Sometimes their parents will be able to arrange an apprenticeship with a skilled artisan, but at a certain number of children the younger ones will simply have to find their own way, migrating to the cities. Aside from farming, the yeomanry also highly prize the skills of hunters in general and the art of the bow in particular. While a point of pride and a means of defending their holdings from hostile wildlife and outsiders, more than a few of the yeomanry also see the bow as a way to get ahead in life. At its least dark this amounts to using their martial skills to become skilled warriors for the People in general, while at its most dark it becomes a form of banditry. On occasion entire trade caravans will disappear, the locals blaming bad weather. While often difficult to prove, this is usually caused by a village turning bandit - often prompted by their local leadership having some sort of dispute with the caravan.
Traders
Even more than the patricians, the life of a trader is based around who they know. Social contacts are how they gain the trust to do trade, so children are a form of coinage even more than actual coins. While girls are the most often members swapped between trade clans and prospective trade partners, if a son is needed to seal the deal then that is what is needed. While there is some administrative training, more than anything else in their child's education the ability to read and interact with others is emphasized. It is thus not particularly surprising that many of the ancient trade clans are also intimately intertwined with the patrician families. The fact that the traders have a knack for taking in exotic and attractive outsiders means that many of their members are praised for being extremely attractive.
Freelancers
Technically no member of the People goes without work if they are capable, but there are huge numbers outside the intricate webs of association and obligation, typically referred to as "freelancers". These are the lowest status and lowest paid members of the People, generated by excess children unable to inherit the positions of their parents, refugee influxes, or people who just don't quite fit in with the rest of society and drift from place to place. These people do the low skill labour off the farms, the upwardly mobile among them hoping to convince an artisan to take them on as an adult apprentice so that they can transition into that social class. This social category also frequently includes certain "artisan" work that is so looked down upon that it is considered transitory. The archetypical example is prostitution, but often itinerant performers will be in this category as well. While technically for these groups the guilds for them include highly skilled members, these members are relatively rare and most people will only associate with the professions for part of their lives for one reason or another. If they can, most in these professions will attempt to get their children into a more respectable profession. A rare few within the field find the more respectable parts for their children to apprentice on and rise up. For example, the Guild of Hospitality is heavily involved with prostitution, but also has numerous sub-sections that are more respectable: they require shamans to check health and thus have permission to pass on certain mystic secrets internally. Many urban midwives are drawn from the more intellectual prostitutes, and there are additional skills such as massage and hair cutting that fall within the purview of the guild. High ranking courtesans can glide among the heights of society, and while rarely able to leverage this into lasting advantage, more than one patrician has been prompted to find a quiet but respectable position for an courtesan-born child who can go on to support their mother's retirement in relative comfort.
Half-exiles
While technically not a heritable position, the half-exiles with children are expected to pass along lessons of spiritual humility and cleansing to any children they might have. In places where the position is a transitory one mostly occupied by the young and stupid, there are few children to worry about and their parents are often attempting them to behave according to their original social class. In places where the half-exiles are longer term and closer to a caste, their parents often inadvertently pass along the lesson that society is out to get them and there is no point bettering yourself through accepted means, which often becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. There have been a few initiatives to separate half-exiles from their children to avoid spiritual contamination, but this often results in disaster and the kings and priests siding with the half-exiles.
Priests
While many priests have little interest in having children for one reason or another, there is nothing prohibiting a priest or shaman from having children. While many of these individuals follow in their parents foot-steps through sheer exposure to the subject matter, there are very few priest families as they are typically absorbed into the patricians in short order. Having a highly skilled priest interested in marriage is far too tempting for the patricians, and when given a choice between the esoteric mysteries of priests and shamans and something more interesting the children will tend to gravitate away from the position and towards the occupations of the other side of their family.
Patricians
The patricians occupy their position in society through a combination of network contacts, managerial competence (that they hoard obsessively), and the ability influence enormous amounts of resources both personally and through their positions in society. As such, the raising of their children is a massive concern to them. The first two male children are typically educated similarly, the so called "heir and the spare", with both receiving extensive education in literacy, administrative mathematics, general physical education and basic combat skill, and most importantly introduction to the extensive network of social contacts that make up the core of the patrician power base. Third and fourth sons are typically encouraged to make a deeper study of the martial arts, particularly of elite skills like chariot archery, so that they might make new contacts among the warriors and have a fast track up the social ladder should they prove proficient. Fifth and further sons (that survive to adulthood) are typically educated more practically, their fathers and grandfathers busy with their older brothers and thus setting them up as apprentices with higher standing "practical" trades, such as clerks or certain artisan groups. While not as prestigious, these sons can help keep influence networks fresh and ensure that patrician families are represented in the middle management of the guilds as well as the upper management. Many of these later sons also show signs of spiritual power and are thus sent off to the priesthood, where the contacts of their fathers help them rise up within that hierarchy faster than less connected peers. Patrician daughters are typically the glue that holds the powerful families together, and are thus given their own education in administration for the running of households and aesthetically pleasing physical education to make themselves more attractive for discerning husbands and to help promote the bearing of strong children.
Warriors
There are few hereditary warrior families that don't either aspire to become patricians or go extinct in the process, but there are many only a few generations old that are working their way up from humble beginnings. Typically a warrior family starts with a lower level militia member finding success as a caravan guard, being called up for war, or being recommended to a mercenary company. While many children are often sired during the time as active warriors, few actually follow their fathers. For the social climbing warrior, around the age of thirty to thirty five they will settle down into positions training the next generation and have 'official' children. They will attempt to pass on their skills to their sons so that they can start their careers in a more advantageous position - preferably starting in one of the Banner companies rather than being recommended in later in life. Typically the preferred position is to become a chariot driver so as to have contact with the most elite portions of society, and if they can be promoted to chariot archer from there even better. Chariot archer fathers will typically have chariot archer sons, but from there they will push for their grandsons to either marry into or found their own patrician influence network. Daughters are a typical bargaining chip in all of this, as a fit daughter from a warrior father can be an enticing marriage prospect for a patrician chariot archer whose higher status marriage prospects are not looking great.
Artisans and Clerks
As the "urban middle class", the artisans and clerks tend to take a very practical view to their children and their education. Their children will inherit their skills, or the skills of a friend in a similar career if the family needs to diversify. With their expert training and family support within their organizations, the idea is for their children to be in a better starting position and will be able to rise up in their organization's hierarchy. Theoretically a sufficiently skilled smith could rise to become a guild master and from there join the Royal Council as an advisor, having a shot at the kingship, although the upper level positions are dominated by political connections rather than technical skill. Still, at the top of the guild middle management system is where the patrician's networks begin and thus being in such a position gives one the opportunity to actually develop the political connections required to rise further. Both boys and girls tend to be trained similarly, although girls most often go off to skills considered more appropriate to their gender, such as the weavers guild.
Yeomanry
The "rural middle class" that dominates much of the population is most concerned with the maintenance of their land and ensuring that all of their children will have good farms of their own when they grow up. Since children are often farmhands and the eldest will typically take over the current farm to care for their parents in old age, this means that one of the biggest concerns of the yeomanry is ensuring that the People as a whole have more land to be settled. For very large and successful families, this typically means that some of their younger children will have to seek work elsewhere. Sometimes their parents will be able to arrange an apprenticeship with a skilled artisan, but at a certain number of children the younger ones will simply have to find their own way, migrating to the cities. Aside from farming, the yeomanry also highly prize the skills of hunters in general and the art of the bow in particular. While a point of pride and a means of defending their holdings from hostile wildlife and outsiders, more than a few of the yeomanry also see the bow as a way to get ahead in life. At its least dark this amounts to using their martial skills to become skilled warriors for the People in general, while at its most dark it becomes a form of banditry. On occasion entire trade caravans will disappear, the locals blaming bad weather. While often difficult to prove, this is usually caused by a village turning bandit - often prompted by their local leadership having some sort of dispute with the caravan.
Traders
Even more than the patricians, the life of a trader is based around who they know. Social contacts are how they gain the trust to do trade, so children are a form of coinage even more than actual coins. While girls are the most often members swapped between trade clans and prospective trade partners, if a son is needed to seal the deal then that is what is needed. While there is some administrative training, more than anything else in their child's education the ability to read and interact with others is emphasized. It is thus not particularly surprising that many of the ancient trade clans are also intimately intertwined with the patrician families. The fact that the traders have a knack for taking in exotic and attractive outsiders means that many of their members are praised for being extremely attractive.
Freelancers
Technically no member of the People goes without work if they are capable, but there are huge numbers outside the intricate webs of association and obligation, typically referred to as "freelancers". These are the lowest status and lowest paid members of the People, generated by excess children unable to inherit the positions of their parents, refugee influxes, or people who just don't quite fit in with the rest of society and drift from place to place. These people do the low skill labour off the farms, the upwardly mobile among them hoping to convince an artisan to take them on as an adult apprentice so that they can transition into that social class. This social category also frequently includes certain "artisan" work that is so looked down upon that it is considered transitory. The archetypical example is prostitution, but often itinerant performers will be in this category as well. While technically for these groups the guilds for them include highly skilled members, these members are relatively rare and most people will only associate with the professions for part of their lives for one reason or another. If they can, most in these professions will attempt to get their children into a more respectable profession. A rare few within the field find the more respectable parts for their children to apprentice on and rise up. For example, the Guild of Hospitality is heavily involved with prostitution, but also has numerous sub-sections that are more respectable: they require shamans to check health and thus have permission to pass on certain mystic secrets internally. Many urban midwives are drawn from the more intellectual prostitutes, and there are additional skills such as massage and hair cutting that fall within the purview of the guild. High ranking courtesans can glide among the heights of society, and while rarely able to leverage this into lasting advantage, more than one patrician has been prompted to find a quiet but respectable position for an courtesan-born child who can go on to support their mother's retirement in relative comfort.
Half-exiles
While technically not a heritable position, the half-exiles with children are expected to pass along lessons of spiritual humility and cleansing to any children they might have. In places where the position is a transitory one mostly occupied by the young and stupid, there are few children to worry about and their parents are often attempting them to behave according to their original social class. In places where the half-exiles are longer term and closer to a caste, their parents often inadvertently pass along the lesson that society is out to get them and there is no point bettering yourself through accepted means, which often becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. There have been a few initiatives to separate half-exiles from their children to avoid spiritual contamination, but this often results in disaster and the kings and priests siding with the half-exiles.
Priests
While many priests have little interest in having children for one reason or another, there is nothing prohibiting a priest or shaman from having children. While many of these individuals follow in their parents foot-steps through sheer exposure to the subject matter, there are very few priest families as they are typically absorbed into the patricians in short order. Having a highly skilled priest interested in marriage is far too tempting for the patricians, and when given a choice between the esoteric mysteries of priests and shamans and something more interesting the children will tend to gravitate away from the position and towards the occupations of the other side of their family.
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
*sees Patricians* Huh,
*Sees rest* Huhhhh
Guess the whole Egalitarian thing is failing, Good work everybody
*Sees rest* Huhhhh
Guess the whole Egalitarian thing is failing, Good work everybody
- Location
- Hell
So. Do I hear SPARTA???!!!
At least, a nice version of SPARTA.
It means doing all the strategically placed exercise for no reason than to look hawt.
At least, a nice version of SPARTA.
It means doing all the strategically placed exercise for no reason than to look hawt.
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
I think its just them getting muscle and the like in the right places, and to look as fit and attractive as possible
Also lol, our traders are on average pretty attractive apparently
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Well I know that none of this is particularly surprising to me.*sees Patricians* Huh,
*Sees rest* Huhhhh
Guess the whole Egalitarian thing is failing, Good work everybody
I mean it makes sense considering the system we've set up is so admin heavy.
I do find it funny that our middle managers are about the top of the skill bracket.
ThrawnCA
Carbon-based biped
- Location
- Australia
The People have had officially-regulated prostitution for over a thousand years. One of the guilds is primarily made of up prostitutes, in fact. This education seems minor by comparison.
ETA Plus, that's coming from patrician families, where everyone is a bargaining chip. If you're concerned about dehumanising behavior, then that whole social class needs to go, along with heavy pruning of most other classes. I think it would rather tend to throw the baby out with the bathwater, don't you?
And other government systems would involve behavior just as bad, likely worse. At least mercenary ambition is driving people to do useful things. Even the exercise apparently includes health aims along with social ones.
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- Location
- Philippines
And people preferred the Yeomans hah! I guess we know where some of the wealth goes then.
Abby Normal
High Clerk of the Ymaryn
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Ughhh, ever strengthening gender roles
@Academia Nut does this part mean that its rare for any freelancer to get their kids to rise up in status, or is this specifically for those that rise up by way of going from the poorly viewed aspects of a guild to the higher status elements within that same guild (a la prostitute -> midwife) ?
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
Funnily enough, its actually better than what I expected. Guess I am to much of a Cynic
- Location
- Philippines
On the contrary this is actually better than most bronze to iron age societies what were you expecting some sort of hippy commune?