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Paths of Civilization

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maximillian said:
Those stopping ports are what blends and spreads culture, ideas and people's across the coastline. And economic collapse may very well spur greater regional implosion and and explosion in piracy.

They also happen to be scenic and quite romantic.

Lastly, Death by shifting trade routes is a horrible way to go.
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Doubt piracy and economic collapse will massively occur and if it does so what? that'll impact the Trell and their economic victims. culture ideas and people will just spread to the south more

so is the nile

their own fault for depending on trade rather than internal dev. a glass jaw is a glass jaw.
 
maximillian said:
Because as ships sail, they stay close to the shore and stop at the various ports and harbours on the way. By creating a new route that circumvent most of the coastline, those ports and harbours and the entire local economies and peoples that live off them are now fucked. For the ships don't traverse and stop along the route anymore.
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I still fail to see how the coastlines you listed are affected by this - the canal is at the very south of our coastline, trade ships will still pass each of our cities. And the aegean and ionian seas aren't even accessible to us.
 
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I STRONGLY oppose the Canal right now.

AN has basically told us it would be on par with the Triangle Canal in cost, which means something like TEN mains, and on the order of 30 Econ.

I say "thanks but no thanks".

Do you know what else we could get with that much resources? Well, one option would be to get our Watchtowers to 100% and our roads to 100%. The watchtowers would require something like 6 mains + 1 secondary and 7 econ, given that they were at 35%. Our roads will require the rest of the actions, since they should be at 11/18 coverage or something like that; they were at 7/16 at the end of Fun And Games, and we built more Trails in More Fun And Games (+1), and Decision Point (+1), and are about to Main them (+2) with the winning vote, but we added a province so I suspect that increased our cap by 2; thus, we should be at 11/18 now, and 3 Mains + 1 Secondary + 7 Econ will be enough to pay from everything.

Another option would be to take the Expand Forest Main ten times. Note that each use actually produces a net of 1 econ and 1 LTE (at 3+ cities, anyways), so that would produce resources instead of consuming them, give us sustainable forests for the near future,make our lands much less susceptible to invasion, let us sell bulk lumber/charcoal, and probably invent any number of things (this is ten main Study actions we are talking about, here!).




Point being. Say no to Canals. We have better things to do.
 
Kiba said:
They might just trade through the Khemetri colony instead of paying through the nose of trading through the Trelli. Also, with a canal in gullvalley, trade will increase for the whole region.
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It's not about trade volumes, it about the shift in trade direction and distance. Stopping ports lived off the ships that stopped, they were passive rather than active participants in trade, so the shift in the route is very much a death sentence.
 
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I'll say no to the Trelli canal but not the triangle canal. The second is vital for our Northern defence against steppe nomads.
 
PrimalShadow said:
AN has basically told us it would be on par with the Triangle Canal in cost, which means something like TEN mains, and on the order of 30 Econ.
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he said it would be a couple actions less

the triangle canal costs 7-10

this canal should cost ~6-9 and saves us from a war or a constant econ drain as a result of whatever deal we make w/ the trell, and might encourage growth along the river or whatever. Based on the map there is a rather sizable gap between gulvalley's lowest extent and the top part of the Khem Colony. This is regrettable.

We can do Expand Forest mains via DA anyways
Watchtowers are less interesting
We plan on doing roads regardless

maximillian said:
It's not about trade volumes, it about the shift in trade direction and distance. Stopping ports lived off the ships that stopped, they were passive rather than active participants in trade, so the shift in the route I very much a death sentence.
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why should we care

ETA50M said:
I'll say no to the Trelli canal but not the triangle canal. The second is vital for our Northern defence against steppe nomads.
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a valid point
 
So I was thinking it was kind of crazy that we managed get both Stallionpen and Redhills to turn into True Cities, so I decided to go back over the numbers. We may have a problem with keeping Redhills a True City unless we start investing in our cities almost immediately. Here's our list of candidates as of the previous update:

Valleyhome 25
Sacred Forest 23
Redshore 20
Stallionpen 16
Redhills 11
Lower Valleyhome 4

Now, that's probably going to go up a bit once Redshore Baths completes, but even 12 EE is quite low. The only reason we even managed to pop the damn thing is because we went all the way down to 4 EE from the poor rains, banditry and refugees. I am somewhat worried what will happen if a Free City downgrades.
 
Umi-san said:
Doubt piracy and economic collapse will massively occur and if it does so what? that'll impact the Trell and their economic victims. culture ideas and people will just spread to the south more

so is the nile

their own fault for depending on trade rather than internal dev. a glass jaw is a glass jaw.
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Those small quaint ports are fixture of romanticism, to kill them is a cultural tragedy!
 
Umi-san said:
think of the US-japan relationship
absolutely hated and yet were fascinated w/ each other (and later switched to weird captive love)
you can hate someone and yet admit they're successful and want to copy parts of them
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You can but that's not at all what happens when we pick a trait. What we pick just means that in the story, those immigrants were successful at adding that part of their culture to their own.

Also, great job at ignoring my whole argument to read only the first sentence
 
Umi-san said:
saves us from a war or a constant econ drain as a result of whatever deal we make w/ the trell
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Or, we could just let them get trade power boost.

You know we are allowed to fail quests, right? And some are intentionally designed so that failing them is really the best thing you can do?

Umi-san said:
We plan on doing roads regardless
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And we've been planning it for dozens of turns now. Guess what? It still isn't done.

Do you know why? It is because people keep doing OTHER stuff instead, and then assuming that the roads will get done "regardless".
 
Academia Nut said:
so much so that an almost bizarre fixation had appeared in the minds of many who were the most fervently against peace with the Highlanders, leading them to picking apart the culture of their foe and adopting parts of it.
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PyrrosWarrior said:
You can but that's not at all what happens when we pick a trait. What we pick just means that in the story, those immigrants were successful at adding that part of their culture to their own.

Also, great job at ignoring my whole argument to read only the first sentence
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PyrrosWarrior said:
1: Unlike we the players, our in-game government is not actually choosing what traits get absorbed into our society. That is purely just whatever culture becomes successful enough in adding their own part to the mixing pot that it catches on to our society as a whole. Narratively, it just so happens that the highlander immigrants were able to add their own part, which can be attributed to the fact that our cultures grew up side-by-side and have been intermixing for centuries thus making it easier for highlander culture refugees and immigrants to assimilate than, say, Khemetrians.
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Incorrect.
Academia Nut said:
so much so that an almost bizarre fixation had appeared in the minds of many who were the most fervently against peace with the Highlanders, leading them to picking apart the culture of their foe and adopting parts of it.
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PyrrosWarrior said:
2: We never hated the highlander people in the first place, but rather we disliked the government in place over the culture. It makes no sense to limit based on culture when our feud is not at all cultural or societal in nature.
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People = Culture + Government. People who dislike "americans" dislike us for what our government does while knowing that american people are not their government. They dislike "americans" for their shallow, garish culture despite knowing that american people are not their culture. They do this because a people is both their government and their culture.

We hated the Highlanders as a people because of their actions, and are overall mostly neutral toward their culture other than finding the debt-slavery thing recognizable but a tad reprehensible, and being a tad weirded out by the intense patriarchy their hierarchical system relies on (unless you're a northerner).

PyrrosWarrior said:
"Amorphous Culture: Due to your nature of constantly adding new cultures into your own, your society and culture is constantly evolving in unpredictable ways, for better or worse. Effects: You lose control over what traits you gain from neighbors, and your traits will sometimes randomly mutate to an unknown based on your neighbors and dominant cultural partners. Taking in refugees raises the chances of random mutation."
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This would be an interesting value but one far worse than our current DB.
It also relies on the previous disproven assumption.

PrimalShadow said:
Or, we could just let them get trade power boost.

You know we are allowed to fail quests, right? And some are intentionally designed so that failing them is really the best thing you can do?


And we've been planning it for dozens of turns now. Guess what? It still isn't done.

Do you know why? It is because people keep doing OTHER stuff instead, and then assuming that the roads will get done "regardless".
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Roads are literally winning right now. It's not an assumption.

We made 2 secondary roads w/ our admin hero.

We can fail quests, but I don't see losing trade power and thus long term wealth gain to be very beneficial, especially since it empowers a slaving, expansionist polity who we plan on waging war w/ in the future.
 
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PrimalShadow said:
And we've been planning it for dozens of turns now. Guess what? It still isn't done.

Do you know why? It is because people keep doing OTHER stuff instead, and then assuming that the roads will get done "regardless".
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We've been doing roads. A lot of roads. In fact, it looks like we're doing some more this very update.

We can't reasonably ignore everything else and just do roads for the next century to max them out. At least wait till we aren't actively doing roads to complain about it.
 
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[X] [Diplo] Tie everything together internally (Main Build Roads)
[X] [GA] Gain random hero (-10 Culture)
-[x] [GA] Specify: Admin genius (Additional -3 Culture)

I was really really tempted to go culture hero but we have admin woes and an admin hero never lead us wrong before.
 
You know rather than spending a qyite frankly ludicrous amount of effort making a fanal why don't we just get a diplo genius/hero to diplo annex the treli.
 
pblur said:
We've been doing roads. A lot of roads. In fact, it looks like we're doing some more this very update.

We can't reasonably ignore everything else and just do roads for the next century to max them out. But at least wait till we aren't actively doing roads to complain about it.
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Unless we see a turnaround against roads, this update we should end up with 11/18 road coverage, not too bad. We could potentially bring our coverage to 100% in the next two turns if we ignore everything else, which I don't recommend.
 
Umi-san said:
This would be an interesting value but one far worse than our current DB.
It also relies on the previous disproven assumption.
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It's a DB. It's supposed to be debilitating by its very nature. I am not exactly arguing for us to be buffed here. I am arguing that Nemesis Fashion only makes sense from a player-standpoint, not a story standpoint.

Also, you haven't at all disproven that we don't hate their culture. By our very being of what our society is based on. we literally cannot hate them on a cultural level. We can only hate them on a political level.
 
Reader of all said:
You know rather than spending a qyite frankly ludicrous amount of effort making a fanal why don't we just get a diplo genius/hero to diplo annex the treli.
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that's sacrificing the magic of an admin hero and abandoning math-kun to the cold. Pair a new admin genius w/ our still living mystic genius <3 <3 <3 ;)

PyrrosWarrior said:
It's a DB. It's supposed to be debilitating by its very nature. I am not exactly arguing for us to be buffed here. I am arguing that Nemesis Fashion only makes sense from a player-standpoint, not a story standpoint.

Also, you haven't at all disproven that we don't hate their culture. By our very being of what our society is based on. we literally cannot hate them on a cultural level. We can only hate them on a political level.
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I have demonstrated AN's logic for how the Nemesis Fashion DB works both in this story and IRL. If you choose to ignore this, I cannot help you.

Why would I need to prove that we hate their culture? Hating them as a people and/or political entity is the DB's requirement, not hating their culture, for all that culture is part of a people. Edit: What I disproved w/ your suggested DB is that our value adoption method is not solely immigrants introducing parts of their culture to us. We can also deliberately acquire it.
 
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Glassware said:
A Genius admin? Unlikely to be qualified as king. Sorry, you'll have to settle for getting a boost to administrative actions instead. If you want to be absolved, vote in a hero instead.
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AN said stability of genius is based on a roll, and tends to be higher for some than others. It's somewhat speculative, but I'd say Admin geniuses would be on the more stable side.
 
maximillian said:
Bah, romance is dead in this forum.
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well, we've got the romance of our eastern frontier towns, and we have intrepid seafarers, and FYI, our Black sea coast would actually not be affected by the canal, by virtue of its location at the southern end of our coastline. So we'd still have romantic port towns.
(by the way, given that our ships can sail across the center of the black sea in 3 days, straight line, I don't think they were doing much stopping anyway.)
Edit: Just realized that this is three disjointed clauses. I should sleep more...
 
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