@maximillian
A theocratic system can replace a secular system as long as we make the ground rules sufficiently grounded in reality. It won't stagnate so long as its values are not so limited as to be unable to reflect changes in its setting and its congregation do not follow the words of its administration w/ blind faith but instead actively participate in refining and evaluating it.

Edit: I.e., I'm making an inverse of the argument because I'm disinterested in discussing veekie's belief that "blind faith" is a necessary tool for enforcing moral behavior in a society as a whole. You might as well just implement ritual stoning of the particularly immoral. Such a practice is basically the same thing as saying hell exists.

The validity of going overboard and instituting a theocracy is comparatively more interesting.


Oh I am not all opposed to theocracy (I do not champion it either), it all depends on the fundamental truths of the faith. Different ideas produce different fanatics afterall.
The right core can have a faith obsessed with scholasticism and the search for truth, whilst maintaining firm adherence to ritual and tradition, a clergy detached yet part of the people, an ethos of giving intertwined with grandeur. belief can be manifested in a colourful tapestry of variety.

Organised religion is a deeply complex and fascinating thing, it is also the work of the countless generations. I highly doubt that the thread would be able to produce in a few pages, what generations of humanity best and brightest took centuries and millenia to refine.

But I am very much willing to try.
 
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Religion works so well in this time period because it forces certain moral values on everyone, no matter how corrupt or immoral they are. As an example, the only reason our traders don't trade in slaves is because our religion says it is wrong to do so.
Not that they don't try even so.
The Law said they can't sell iron, so they resell foreign iron.
The Gods said they can't deal in slavery, so they ask "but they probably deserved it".

Very naughty people.
 
It is, but it's also something that won't happen until we can mass produce written material, and have at least a 50% literacy rate.

So until then, religion works far better than education at teaching people our values and helping them integrate into our community.

Right right, we also don't have paper yet. So next main turn would be something like:

[] Main: Build Gymnasium
[] Secondary: Plant Hemp
[] Secondary: Some Study Action

To get started on the Public Education route.
 
I find the idea that our modern values only survive because of constant indoctrination to be very dubious. For one thing, we live in rather pluralist societies, especially compared to earlier times - i.e., we are not getting 'bombarded' by a single, coherent moral message; rather we get confronted to dozens of view points, as it should be.

Our society still doesn't crumble, despite the decreasing importance of religion, because religion is ultimately not necessary in order to instill moral values. As, ironically, Ignatius of Loyola (the founder of the Jesuits) is said to have said: "Give me the child for the first seven years and I will give you the man." People rarely really question the fundamental core tenets of their upbringing. I think, ironically, you can see this best in people who do turn away from old values: People turning away from religious parents, but still believing that "something is out there". Or all the dissident movements in the East Bloc in 1989- most of them said "Socialism is actually a good idea, but...".

The core tenets always stayed.

So I would argue it doesn't necessarily take religion to reinforce them. They just need to be present in our society one way or the other, as religious values or as secular values, to be imprinted onto our children.

We are bombarded with a narrow band of values. Or does the local newspaper also regularly call for jihad against infidels, the virtues of keeping other people as slaves and have guest appearances by experts that discuss the best ways to kill LGBT people?

Those different values and viewpoints you talk about are still ultimately only a few degrees separated.


And yes, early education gives you a lot of power over later development.

Now how do you get it consistent with Iron Age infrastructure? How do you handle teenage rebellion? How do you handle immigrants with completely different values that may raise their children with their old values?

The priests are currently our only reliable tool for the job. Once we get other tools, I will cheerfully use them. But until then, I'd like to repeat: I'm no fan of religion either, but accept their current role in Ymaryn society out of pragmatism.

Please stop arguing as the entire thing starts sounding like this to me:

We can have morals without religion!

Yes, but for now we need them.

We can have morals without religion!

Yes, but for now we need them.

We can have morals without religion!

Yes, but for now we need them.

We can have morals without religion!

Yes, but for now we need them.

Repeat ad nauseum.

While I agree that there will be idiots in any society, the examples you pointed out are definitely minorities and that public education has also led to wonderful things like Vaccines, Space Travel, etc.

At first it will be elite-only, but as more Gymnasiums are opened more people will attend. It is also significantly easier to work top-down when it comes to spreading change in a society so we have that going for us. People will view Public Education as a status symbol and as such will be easier to convince to send their kids to school. Actually here's a fun fact; the reason the US school system has the school year defined as it does is because the rich would leave for the countryside in the summer to escape the heat of cities. Thus schools choose to formalize this vacation rather than operate with less than half capacity.

And while I'm not arguing for the immediate replacement of Priests I am advocating for increased attention to Gymnasiums and secular education.

And where did I deny that secular education is great? I'm pointing out the practical problems. Once we have enough, education will be cheapened as a qualifier for high position, making power available to a larger pool. But there is a limited number of spots as Chief et al. So the other educated people will look for other jobs. Like teaching or research. Some of them will start teaching lower class people because all the nobles already have better teachers.

That doesn't even get into the demand for technically skilled artisans, which will need an education to at least be able to use library resources.

But this will take centuries and even then, an education system is expensive. Extremely so.

Our rural population won't be literate for a very, very long time. But that's okay. We have time. We are working on it.
 
Not that they don't try even so.
The Law said they can't sell iron, so they resell foreign iron.
The Gods said they can't deal in slavery, so they ask "but they probably deserved it".

Very naughty people.
Yeah, the Traders will always try to push the boundaries of morality in order to make extra cash, since that's what they do.
I'm just saying that without religion they would have been doing that already.

Right right, we also don't have paper yet. So next main turn would be something like:

[] Main: Build Gymnasium
[] Secondary: Plant Hemp
[] Secondary: Some Study Action

To get started on the Public Education route.
No offense, but I think there are more and better things to be doing right now than working on public education.

We have to root out corruption, build more roads, build more temples, build more everything really.
 
We need to recenter ourselves, I think. Reiterate to ourselves what our goal as a civilization is.
My goal is to be a morally good society by any means possible - minimal to no warmaking, a society that cares for it's underclass, a happy populace that has a minimum of people being exploited, high social mobility, and accomplishing all this in harmony with our environment.
 
To those trying to screw with our religion I say this.

The Merchants were raised with a good education, they were raised in an environment that preached morality against such things as slavery.

Yet what did they do in the last update?
They tried to relax slavery laws.

'Mah seclurism' and 'Religion iz terrible always must h8' doesn't apply in this time period, this society or in this quest at the moment. The Merchant families have shown that for now and for the foreseeable future Religion is crucial to keeping a leesh on the Kingdoms morality. It is the Priests who stop looting and raping whilst at war, it is the Priests who stop slavery being used, it is the Priests who stop animal abuse.

Constantly we see the eductaed, those who know what should be right or wrong try to ignore morality for their own benefit. It is Religion that helps stop them.

Secularism doesn't work in this time period or context no matter how much theoretical maybe's you throw at the wall and hope stick.


Also we worked really really hard to create a badarse and beneficial Religion for our civ. stop trying to fuck it up because you're an aetheist. Others are religious and don't like your bashing of religions place in society, it has been just as, if not more, beneficial then it has been detrimental.
 
And where did I deny that secular education is great? I'm pointing out the practical problems. Once we have enough, education will be cheapened as a qualifier for high position, making power available to a larger pool. But there is a limited number of spots as Chief et al. So the other educated people will look for other jobs. Like teaching or research. Some of them will start teaching lower class people because all the nobles already have better teachers.

That doesn't even get into the demand for technically skilled artisans, which will need an education to at least be able to use library resources.

But this will take centuries and even then, an education system is expensive. Extremely so.

Our rural population won't be literate for a very, very long time. But that's okay. We have time. We are working on it.
I enjoy being immortal!
It's great fun!

Yeah, the Traders will always try to push the boundaries of morality in order to make extra cash, since that's what they do.
I'm just saying that without religion they would have been doing that already.


No offense, but I think there are more and better things to be doing right now than working on public education.

We have to root out corruption, build more roads, build more temples, build more everything really.
I thought we had two infrastructure passive policies that were working on infrastructure?
 
I enjoy being immortal!
It's great fun!


I thought we had two infrastructure passive policies that were working on infrastructure?
We do, but that doesn't mean that we can't build infrastructure ourselves.

We will always have things to build, plant, and make.
We also have subordinates that we can support or influence.
We can also subjugate the Highlanders.

The point is, there's a ton more things that we can and should do over trying to implement public education, since it is currently extravagant and unnecessary.
 
Right right, we also don't have paper yet. So next main turn would be something like:

[] Main: Build Gymnasium
[] Secondary: Plant Hemp
[] Secondary: Some Study Action

To get started on the Public Education route.

Priorities.

Lets first clear out existential issues before we start chasing shinies.

We still need at least one temple to reduce drift between Core and North, which AN noted was an issue.

We still need a fuckton of roads.

We need more walls before the Nomads fully switch to hard mode.

We need infrastructure in general to sustain the country. Including Libraries in every city.

We need to keep excess noble warriors busy before they start doing something stupid. (Nigh certain, young, aggressive and rich leaves little place for prudence)

Then, we can try and take shots at getting more education.
 
My goal is to be a morally good society by any means possible
This explains why you are so willing to let the Highlanders continue to fuck around and try to kill us.

Morality is more important than survival for you.

And that is why if you were a civ right next to me I'd put a spy network in you, steal your secrets, continual sabotage you, attack you whenever I could with intent to destroy and not be worried at all that you'd attack me.

Because you're a wannabe Ghandi in the age where anyone who doesn't have a shiv gets shived.
 
But a collision of forces does not necessitate a merger , an can in end in one bowing to the other, and nature being devoid of will is at a stark disadvantage to man, who's divine gift of will maketh him unique in that regard.
And the accord and harmony you speak of is already in place in the relation of subject and lord. It is the subject interest to be of service to the lord, and it is the Lords interest to care for the subject, the bonds of dominion tie them intricately.
The harmony and accord are what we make them to be, they are creations of man in utter Bondage to his mind. And a man who realises his dominion can surrender without fear of loss of that very will that grants him his supremacy.
There is no accord in servitude, only dominion. It is in the Lord's supreme interest to care for himself, which a servant performs. It is not in the Lord's supreme interest to care for the servant, so long as the servant performs. Such a relationship has not the mutual benefit of harmony; only the instability of self-absorption, the struggle of one to provide for two.

Harmony and accord, the creations of their participants, are what benefit all. To consider oneself superior is to erode mutual accord, to corrupt universal harmony. If nature is a force, so too is will. Both forces; neither unique. Consciousness, the ability to know something more than oneself, is the gift of nature and the result of nature's guidance. To be truly conscious is to acknowledge one's debt to the other, and thus to the accord; to realize harmony, a higher purpose, and a better life.
 
Breach of Rule 2.
stop trying to fuck it up because you're an aetheist. Others are religious and don't like your bashing of religions place in society
Hypocrisy much? You accuse others of arguing against the standing of religion here because they're atheists IRL but all out admit you argue for the standing of religion here because you're religious IRL. That's kinda a double standard, you know.

And no, IRL, religion has been a pox.
 
We need to recenter ourselves, I think. Reiterate to ourselves what our goal as a civilization is.
My goal is to be a morally good society by any means possible - minimal to no warmaking, a society that cares for it's underclass, a happy populace that has a minimum of people being exploited, high social mobility, and accomplishing all this in harmony with our environment.

I agree with this!

But I also agree that the Highland Kingdom will be a problem in the future and need to be dealt with. I would support going a more diplomatic route with the Trelli though.
 
Also, do note what exactly a gymnasium is; Gymnasium (ancient Greece) - Wikipedia
It's got an initial focus on physical eduction...you know, because it was unlocked with the Games and is all about training warriors and patricians' sons to do better in the Games to bring glory to their families and cities. They quickly became more in RL, due to "recognition by the Greeks of the strong relation between athletics, education and health.", and i think its likely that we'll do something similar, with our values. But its not exactly public education in the same way as we mostly think of it in modern times. If anything i'd say the immediate benefit of the Gymnasiums would be the increase in prestige from improving our rolls in the Games, with the educational benefits mostly being in the form of setting a foundation for us to later develop more extensive education systems.

Also, if the story can survive to get written down, expect later day historians and archaeologists to argue that this is evidence of a meteor impact... rather than a combination "Let's spice up some rain into something more awesome!" and a "Just so" explanation for why the lowlands are flat and semi-arid.
@Academia Nut another interesting thing in my reread: we've had the Cosmogeny thing you made, which added a more cosmic creation story, and implied that the foundation story still existed in a similar form afterwards. How have those changed over time, now that we can be mostly sure they've been fully solidified and written down?

Twelve to fifteen hours from now.



Yes, although the primary context is prevention of people not having enough to eat.
Also, i am hyped for the within-the-hour update assuming real life hasn't pushed this timeline back =D
 
Secularism doesn't work in this time period or context no matter how much theoretical maybe's you throw at the wall and hope stick.
don't agree that secularism can't work in this period

do agree that religion at present has a purpose, and should to some degree be fostered and evolved

feel that secular public education is worthwhile anyways
 
Funny enough most of the Yeomen would curb-stomp the patricians because:
1 - Diversified Nutrition.
2 - Milk
3 - Meat
4 - Bow training.

Basically the average Yeomen would have more strength on the arms than the average patrician, winch would be a really good thing, because the a Yeomen applying himself to the Gym would get access to education and them a higher place on society.
 
We need to recenter ourselves, I think. Reiterate to ourselves what our goal as a civilization is.
My goal is to be a morally good society by any means possible - minimal to no warmaking, a society that cares for it's underclass, a happy populace that has a minimum of people being exploited, high social mobility, and accomplishing all this in harmony with our environment.

Then I recommend you swallow the bitter pill and go for the HK annexation. Either by Bribe/Threat or diplomacy if a miracle happens. They and the Trelli* are the only territories of geostrategic importance to the Kingdom. Afterward, conquest isn't desirable at all as we got defensible borders, open trade access to the Mediterranian and no asshole constantly trying to shank us in the side when shit catches fire.

I'd have preferred diplomancing the HK much earlier, but now it's just unfeasible. And to be fair, the HK never sent any envoys either. This isn't 100% our fault. They could have tried talking to us about their worries and we could have negotiated something. Instead we get the current mess.

*The Trelli we can actually buy out. If we build the Gulvalley canal, we can cut them out of the trade between us and the Khemetri, after which they will probably suffer a collapse spiral from losing pretty much every Dominance they piggy bagged off. After that, we only need to start slurping, send trade missions and salt gifts. No war necessary. Although in their case, I won't be sad if we instead kill the slave traders.
 
Funny enough most of the Yeomen would curb-stomp the patricians because:
1 - Diversified Nutrition.
2 - Milk
3 - Meat
4 - Bow training.

Basically the average Yeomen would have more strength on the arms than the average patrician, winch would be a really good thing, because the a Yeomen applying himself to the Gym would get access to education and them a higher place on society.
But they wouldn't have the time to spend at the Gymnasium, nor the influence to actually get entrance to it, to my understanding?
 
feel that secular public education is worthwhile anyways

Hovewer, our civ is not at the level where we are starved of skilled workers that need much education to perform their jobs adequately.
Public education in itself will be wasted if its results are seldom used by most of the people who receive it.
I feel it is a matter for a later day, when you would NEED to be educated to get a sizable portion of jobs.
 
Decision point
[X][Pox] Yes (Khemetri gain knowledge of how to do the Sacred Warding, the People gain Predictive Astrology)
[X][Iron] Allow finished goods to be traded
[X][PiA] Highlanders (Probably In Service to Order)
[X][PDN] Majorly push forward forests (Main Expand Forests, -2 Centralization)
[X][React] Reorganize army and hunt deserters (Found Mercenary Company + Sailing Mission (anti-pirate))

Actions Taken
[Main] Enforce Justice
[Sec] Change Active Policy – Balanced
[Sec] Build Chariots
[Guild] Grand Docks
[Free] Policy – Infrastructure

Provinces – [Sec] Sailing Mission, [Sec] Study Stars, [Sec] New Settlement, [Sec] New Trails
Policies – Valleyhome Baths (3/3), Lower Valleyhome Aqueduct (3/3), Sacred Forest Temple (1/6), ignificant Walls (16/45 Significant Walls)
Western – [Main] Expand Forest, [Main] Glassworks
Greenshore – [Main] New Settlement, [Sec] Build Walls
Gulvalley – [Sec] Build Walls, [Sec] Survey
Heaven's Hawk – [Main] Trade Mission – Eastern Nomads
Txolla – [Main] Rework Irrigation, [Sec] Black Soil
Tinriver – [Main] Build Docks

Hertythyn was in his natural state of existence: mild vexation at those around him. The past twenty or so years had seen numerous minor issues piling up that he had eventually decided was the fault of too many patricians sons with not enough to do. Even as the population grew, the number of upper management positions did not grow at the same pace. Traditionally the side branches that developed took up the position of chariot archers and drivers, which tended to produce good generals as they needed a good head for the movement of troops and spatial awareness, but the use of chariots had been in something of a decline with many of the enemies of the People fighting in rough terrain. With the population still growing rapidly, this resulted in lots of well trained young men with not enough to do, and well connected parents who could keep them in comfort while viciously fighting with each other over the limited number of slots. This lead to corruption and more than a few lackluster commanders. The hunt for the pirates had taken far more years than was truly necessary, although once they had been found by the sailors the Dragon Banner had stomped on the renegades with ease.

Part of it had perhaps been the... peculiarities in culture creating some uncertainty. After the decision to just not stand in the way of the merchants sale of iron and iron goods there had been a rapid explosion and destabilization of all of the surrounding tribes. Not the major powers, they just eagerly bought them up, but every minor tribe suddenly had more weapons than what they knew what to do with, and so there was a steady trickle of refugees that the People were welcoming in with ease, but also mixing up their culture at a time of influx of mystical knowledge and culture from the Khemetri, and a rather peculiar phenomenon. There was a deep undercurrent of anger towards the Highlanders over their attacks during the war with the Khemetri, so much so that an almost bizarre fixation had appeared in the minds of many who were the most fervently against peace with the Highlanders, leading them to picking apart the culture of their foe and adopting parts of it. While this uptake of rigid adherence to the rules by many was rather useful, it was definitely a worrying trend.

In Service to Order (PiA Linked)
Order and stability are paramount, and any king who cannot maintain that needs to be replaced in short order.
Pros: First stability hit a turn is negated
Cons: At negative stability, lose 1 Legitimacy a phase

Nemesis Fashion: PiA linked abilities can only be drawn from a nemesis that the People have a problem with and intend to destroy

Also, the games in the past few years had not gone in the favour of the People, with many of their smaller neighbours showing them up. At least the Khemetri weren't being quite as thoroughly embarrassed by a poor showing, and were in fact kind of amused by the People getting showed up at their own competition and so kept coming even when smaller groups did better than them. While this was quite good from the perspective of keeping their neighbours talking to them even at the cost of a bit of embarrassment, it did bring forth the sort of problems Hertythyn had expected with regards to the People being agitated over the continued raids and fighting between the Thunder Horse and the Swamp Folk - now better known as the Harmurri.

Gain New CB - Intervention
As King of the Hill, every turn after the first that you have an Intervention CB lose 1 Prestige for not using it


Hertythyn just hoped that those two would sort the issue out on their own in short so he wouldn't feel pressed to help deal with it. Then again the Thunder Horse had doubled down on their snub and been directly insulting the envoys and traders of the People, so maybe they would force his hand. Actually, if he had to guess, the issue was perhaps linked to the belligerence the People had for the Highlanders. The Thunder Horse probably still knew about the existence of that kingdom, and thus knew that if they pressed hard they had an anvil hammer the People into. Frustrating. At least the Heaven's Hawk had thrashed and absorbed a number of nomad tribes in the north in recent years, reducing the threat from that front.

Dismissing the latest round of appeals after finding in favour of the complainant, Hertythyn then found that he had a meeting with the Spirit Chief next on his schedule. Getting up, Hertythyn made his way to the palace shrine, where the Spirit Chief was hard at work with a strange looking woman and a small army of clerks and priests drawn from the library.

"I take it that this is why you scheduled this meeting," the king asked of his advisor.

"Ah, sir, I thought you were still in chambers..." the Spirit Chief began.

Shrugging as he continued forward, Hertythyn said, "Relax, I wrapped up early and was bored with my thoughts."

"Ah, of course. We were just doing last moment checking of what we wanted to talk to you about," the head of the priests explained, the young woman he was working with conspicuously ignoring the king to keep going over all the scrolls and tablets set on tables, a few priests keeping a nervous eye on her. Noticing the king's interest, the Spirit Chief said, "Ah, this is Tormulyna. She... ah, she's not going to acknowledge you right now."

"Spirit-touched?" Hertythyn asked, trying to keep his tone soft. He liked the order of his forms, but he had been informed the few times he had been brought into contact with the spirit-touched through his official duties of how the priests preferred he behave.

"Exceptionally so. Tormulyna is barely capable of speech, but she does have quite the knack for letters despite that. A generation ago when we were given the information from the Khemetri about their considerably more sophisticated tradition of astrology we began to work it out for ourselves. The sophistication and complexity was extreme, and we began to literally dig up ancient records of harvest results to compare to noted astrological phenomena. You see, astrology is the study of history as much as it is the study of the heavens. The gods reveal their signs and portents through the motions of the heavens, but unless you know what they did the last time there was a certain alignment or disruption you can't have any idea what any given sign might mean. Along the way it was discovered through the systems my predecessors established in the wake of Yenyna that Tormulyna has a particular affinity for this sort of work. We gave her resources and support and... well."

Picking up a scroll, the Spirit Chief unrolled it to reveal something of a mess of astrological calculations scribbled everywhere that Hertythyn could only vaguely follow due to his knowledge of administrative math.

"We are still triple-checking the details, but the stars have revealed to us something of critical importance. A series of alignments and portents has revealed to us that the gods are paying very careful attention to us and we are in a precarious situation. According to our calculations, if we perform a series of extremely careful steps we can ensure fabulous peace and prosperity for at least a century, but if we fail at this, or worse yet turn against the prophecies, then terrible ruin might be awaiting us," the High Priest explained.

"Explain," the king asked, narrowing his eyes.

"I'll gloss over the details that got us here, but within the turning of the next solstice we must let go of one enemy, take up a shield for a friendly stranger, and bring forth a dragon and dragon egg to the east," the Spirit Chief explained.

Parsing it a bit, Hertythyn asked, "Officially declare that we're not going to take a swing at the Highlanders, tell the Thunder Horse we're tired of their shit and we're going to separate them and the Harmurri - even though the Harmurri started the current fight - and bring forth some combination of the Dragon Banner, Yenyna, and Yenyna's son to the fighting in the east?"

"We're triple - quadruple checking in some instances - the horoscopes, but yes, that is what we have drawn from the secondary and tertiary calculations."

"The last several points can be done if some ease, but that first point is going to infuriate a large segment of the population still upset over the way the Highlanders have been behaving for the past several generations."

"The gods command it. We do it all to gain their favour, or we should prepare for whatever disaster their displeasure brings down upon us," the Spirit Chief stated plainly.

Accept the prediction?
[] Yes (Forfeits the CB against the Highlanders, declares war against the Thunder Horse, brings Yenyna out of retirement, ???)
[] No (???)

AN: Voting shall be open for six hours
 
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Mou~

People don't wanna "Support Subordinate - Gulvalley" and "Influence Subordinate - Txolla"

EDIT - Ninja'd by AN
 
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