Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
You know, there are some beautiful ninjas in this quest.
This is absolutely one of them.
Edit: and I think you ninja'd me by editing out the 'I'm holding out on my vote in case things shake up.' Either that or I was hallucinating.
Last edited:
Ancient Scholar
Amateur Editor/Beta
- Location
- United States
Damn it I can't wait. When is the next update?
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
- Location
- United States
It's fine, miscommunication happens on the internet far too often.
I was trying to say that between the Thunder Horse and the Khemetri, the Khemetri are far more threatening and difficult to beat up.
the Highlanders are the weakest, personally, if only because they have the smallest amount of land and thus the least soldiers, as well as having worse iron then we do and as far as we know worse combat tactics.
- Location
- Hell
Actually, we have already had several. Three War Heroines to the ...Five, I believe, War Heroes. As of now, we just have to hope that dice gives us a chance.
Too late for that. Locked in at two Stability.
I don't think that would be a good idea, because the Stallions army is currently marching on the TS from the north. It would be weird to reclaim their martial while they are on campaign.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Couple hours, referencing <Fey mood>.
- Location
- Hell
That is pretty funny, but I did not plan on voting so I am indifferent. I was definitely expecting it as we pretty much had everyone vote already. This is also the very first vote that veekie has not been part of. That brings me much more amusement. He is going to be in for a rude awakening.
- Location
- indeterminate, possibly non-existent
- Pronouns
- Any
Probably tomorrow, maybe in a few hours if we're particularly lucky
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I have a feeling he probably would have voted for something close to the winner. He and I's voting preferences are pretty similar near as I can tell.
Abby Normal
High Clerk of the Ymaryn
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Analysis and Diffcheckers -- "Epic Age IV"
Diff Checker (Civ Sheet)Diff Checker (Civ Sheet BBCode)
Diplo 15 -> 16
15 + 1 (King of the Hill) = 16Econ 16 -> 16
16 - 1 (Raise Army) - 1 (Study Metal) - 1 (Support Artisans) - 1 (True City) - 4 (Arsenal) + 12 (Baby Boom + Pop Explosion) = 18 - 2 (War Losses) = 16 + 2 (Overflow)We know the war losses number because of how much wealth we ended up with. So even with a crit on WHR with max econ at the start of the turn, we lost 2 econ...
Econ Expansion 10 -> 6
10 + 1 (Raise Army Refund) + 1 (Study Metal Refund) + 1 (Support ARtisans Refund) + 1 (True City Refund) + 2 (Arsenal Refund) - 10 (Baby Boom before Overflow) + 2 (War Losses Refund) - 1 (2 Overflow from econ, 1 True City) = 7 - 1 (???) = 6Hmm... @Academia Nut did i miss something?
Martial 11 (+1) -> 12 (+2)
11 + 3 (Raise Army) + 1 (Veterancy) = 15 - 3 (War Losses) = 12 + 2 (Veterancy)Wow, we got what sounds like a crit on We Have Reserves, with 16 econ to start, and still lost 3 martial... I think we might have been almost completely overrun if we rolled too poorly on WHR, actually
Wealth 14 -> 12
14 + 3 (trade) + 2 (Salterns) - 1 (Census) - 4 (Mercenaries) - 1 (Study Metal) - 2 (Support Artisans) - 2 (Raise Army) + 1 (Efficient Economy) = 10 + 2 (Overflow) = 12Culture 8 -> 6
8 - 4 (Arsenals) + 1 (Support Artisans) + 1 (Raise Army)Mysticism 12 (+1) -> 13 (+1)
12 + 1 (Refund from last turn) - 1 (Study Metal) = 12 + 1 (???) = 13 + (+1) (Study Metal Refund)So we have an extra mysticism...which i think means i was right about us being short a mysticism last turn, and AN just fixed it by giving us the point this turn =3
Tech 0 -> 4
0 + 3 (Artisans) + 1 (Study Metal)Prestige 58 -> 61
58 + 3 (War missions + maybe Arsenal?) = 61Turns out taking massive casualties and being able to actually have reserves is really prestigious
Stability 3 -> 2
3 - 1 (Divine Stewards land loss) = 2
Pleasantly surprised we only lost 1...the fluff made me think we'd lose more. Still, it lost us getting a golden age! D=Woo, we dodged the "decent chance" that population explosion would downgrade
Trade Status
| Resource | Status | Rivals |
| Luxuries | ||
| Amber | Known only | |
| Fine Pottery | Minor | |
| Fine Dye | Dominating | Trelli |
| Fine Textiles | None | Swamp Folk, Trelli |
| Furs | Known only | |
| Gems | Dominating | Trelli, Tin Tribes, Khem (in) |
| Glass | Dominating | |
| Gold | Significant + minor trading (in) | Metal Workers, Khem->Trelli |
| Incense | None | Khem->Trelli |
| Mercury | Dominating | None |
| Silver | Significant (in) | MW, Trelli (in) |
| Salt | Dominating | Trelli |
| Spices | None | (SI+Khem)->Trelli |
| Wine | Dominating | Trelli |
| Strategic | ||
| Copper | Leading | Highlanders, Thunder Horse, MW, Trelli |
| Bronze | Minor | Trelli |
| Slaves | Forbidden | MW (in), Trelli, TT |
| Tin | Minor + Significant Trading | MW (in), TH (in), HK (in), Tin Tribes, Trelli->Khem |
| Iron | Non-traded dominant | MW |
| Cultural | ||
| Pilgrimage | Major Competition | TH |
Yet another subordinate slot gained thanks to prestige boost! Unfortunately, Txolla is majorly in danger, so we need to put at least decent focus on them in our war choices...
Study metal didn't get us steel like we hoped, but at least we got Case Hardening, which i think people said is really important and also a good step on the way to steel?
And double arsenal got us +1 Safe Martial limit and +1 Tech refund, which is awesome!
Logical; go hard on attack, and replenish losses.
As expected; hopefully the walls went up in a useful place.
Massive walls for their settlement from last turn.
Damn, we had our subordinate helping with support artisans and we still didn't get an upgrade to crossbows or bolt throwers :/
Expansion with walls as expected.
As expected, and confirmation that watchtowers are useful.
HH beginning to realize that our sedentary ways of static defenses can be useful
Massive walls for...maybe Xohyr remnants? Likely one of hte few remaining settlements they have now...
And tinriver is the odd one out, not expanding or preparing for war
Ughh, Highlanders!!!
Well at least they (probably) don't have siege ability yet...and hopefully we can relieve those settlements before the HK can starve them out...
Damn, it looks like our boats still aren't good enough to actually supply much... also, fucking Thunder Horse!
We Have Reserves working hard this turn...
Ughhh, heroes! Still, at least we have confirmation that our equipment and weaponry is better...hopefully that continues to be true after our losses so far...
Interesting... the bolded is still a cut off sentence (@Academia Nut ), but presumably it would be something about how we inflict great losses but don't do much to the actual settlements? Also a narrative way of showing how only the Trelli mercenaries rolled at all well at war missions on our side.
Ooooh, looks like critting on WHR, and having the Econ buffer and raise army to keep up with things, is really damn useful.
Looking at each option:
The King Still Stands:
AN described it as such:
So i'm gonna guess something like gaining a free war mission in response to the initial attacks of an enemy so long as we survive? Or maybe something like "1 martial damage from any individual war loss roll is refunded"? Either way, pretty damn useful. Not Essential, but i think the most powerful option overall, especially since legacies don't take up value slots or the like.
We Have Reserves:
An described the upgrade as:
So maybe something like just increasing effects (and maybe cost?) of martial raising actions? Or some kind of response to war being declared letting us turn econ to martial directly? Hmm... Doesn't seem super useful to me, honestly.
Honour Code Slot:
Probably the least useful right now, since low level values are usually kind of shit. Still, value slots are hard to get, and developed values are amazing. Even mid level values are great; again, see We Have Reserves saving our ass this turn.
Proclaim Glory:
Lets us keep our stability up. 2 stability is really damn nice, after all. Still, this uses up all of our culture and 2 econ. That said, if we intend to keep kicking things, its pretty useful. Probably the most useful short term, and the one that guarentees the most safety.
Storytellers:
This one seems weird...culture is certainly nice, but not very helpful right now...which makes me think there might be some hidden affects? *shrug* still, we couldn't count on any such effects, and the main use for culture right now would be the proclaim glory option, so i dont see much use to this.
So i think either The King Still Stands or Proclaim Glory would be best. The former is way stronger long term, and should provide direct military benefits, while the latter helps keep our stability up, and lets us either kick more or just have a bigger buffer.
As expected, the narrative behind this is pretty good...
Unfortunately the rolls were not as kind :/ Also, it looks like we massively influenced the economy switch, and so we got guild mercantile as an econ system...
<snip econ analysis was here before, now own section>
Well we didn't get Steel like we hoped, but we got Case Hardening, which is apparently really important both in general and in terms of getting closer to steel.
Ooooh! We finally know what comes after hero... @Academia Nut considering you said we rolled pretty poorly except for WHR, does this mean this was partially a bonus from the Arsenal synergy, or just a response to how many heroes are going around?
As for the choices:
Upgrade Heir:
This would give the best overall boost, shoring up weaknesses and putting us on par with our foes in at least having a martial hero, and it keeps the power concentrated in the king...but it also would be relatively shortlived, since the heir is in his forties*, and its "only" a hero. Not a big fan of this.
*
Geniuses overall:
So first of all it looks like either the Geniuses get more than just one awesome stat, since AN said before that a "General" is martial+admin, i think?, or they don't specifically do stats, and instead just have a more narrative boost? Also for all of these, its possible we'll get them as heir then king since the current heir is old. @Academia Nut how old are the geniuses going to be if we pick them?
Genius General
This is the obvious "focus on countering martial heroes"; make the negaverses face the possibility of a hero being outmatched. Either pure martial, or Martial+admin, probably. In particular, this will increase the chance of killing the Khemetri god king or god heir, which would be a massive boost. Otherwise, general (major) boost to war actions, which is obviously useful. With how poorly the war is going, i think this is necessary.
Genius Artisan:
Hmm...Depending on if this is general genius admin, or just artisan things (genius tech?), this is either "let the genius take care of things" or "boost mechanical tech, especially crossbows!", or both. The tech side of things would be better served by the alchemist, i think, but the admin boost would be great...if we were doing much better in the war, or had only the khemetri to worry about, i'd push for this.
Genius Alchemist:
Mystic hero king begets genius mystic alchemist? This is almost certainly the "give steel" button. That would be a major boost both in war and in general, both short term and long term... but it wouldn't directly address the martial hero problem. If things were less dire, if Txolla weren't in danger of being lost, and/or the HK hadn't cut off the south, i'd be pushing for this hard, because steel is a major boost...but as is i think its a bit too dire. That said, if we went proclaim glory and kicked hard, i think this would be alright. Drown the enemy in bodies while pursuing a great techup would be a good counter choice to the General, imo.
Genius Trader:
So apparently this is diplo guy, and would presumably try to push for peace i guess?
Seems a little risky...if they succeed they're the best short term, for ending one or more of the wars, or pulling in an ally (who? swamp folk??), but otherwise... ehh, pass.
Free Tech:
Ehh. I suppose this gives tech without acitons, while even the alchemist and artisan likely need to take an action to get us steel/ballistas/whatever. And i guess it might include admin or social techs too (tho thats both good cause those are hard to get and bad because we need military tech now), and if we get lucky we get more than one, but...ehh, pass.
Ugh, choices... So Txolla is really important, because losing them will knock our stability even more, and also probably have the remnants changing masters and fighting against us, and probably spreading iron to the TH if they haven't already picked it up. Hatvalley is important to take back our supply routes. Western Lowlands...depends on if passive policy has been walling up our new settlements, i guess... @Academia Nut how fortified are those settlements?
An of course, the button...i think at least one is needed, both for IC and OoC reasons. Because fuck all these people for this bullshit, and also because we need more actions to push back. As i mentioned in the genius choices, i think if we take Genius General we can do with just 1 or 2 kicks (and then can afford to take King Still Stands), but if we want the alchemist we should go 3 or 4 kicks (and need to take proclaim glory)
Well at least our war missions are better now...but damn, those war mission rolls and all the enemy heroes sucks D=
To add to that:
We apparently rolled poorly on everything else too...so we might have even managed steel if we'd rolled well on study metal, but nope our luck sucks this turn D=
Yeah, let's not push the button quite that hard...like i said, 1-2 is good with the General, 3-4 would be painful but might be worth it to get the Alchemist and go for steel and maintaining our advantage in metal.
Wouldn't proclaim glory take us below max econ, though?
Ouch, that makes things worse...still, at least we'll have them the rest of this turn...
The reference is to a guy mowing his lawn with a tornado visible behind him...but he's keeping an eye on it
And yeah, let's hope for good winds on this...For comparison between Guild and Classical Mercantilism. So basically guild is superior in almost every way. So at least we dodged getting classic? (though i suppose we might have ended up at like [-5+9] wealth if it was "leading*1" wealth generation or something...
Guild Mercantile instead of the expected Mandala, damn. @Academia Nut since it doesn't seem easy to switch econ systems would you be willing to share the stats for Mandala? I'm quite curious what would have changed in upgrading palace economy more directly.
Still, this is pretty good on most fronts as well.
-The extra actions are amazing, currently giving us a +50% boost to our King Actions...but they also seem to lock in actions similar to how wars and megaprojects do? So if we're lucky, we have to spend at least 1 secondary a turn on "manufacturing" actions, which leaves us +1 action for general use, and a dedicated action slot to make us take artisan/art/trade good/etc actions that we often neglect. If we're less lucky, then all extra actions are like that, and while it would be good to be forced to take those actions, and not lose our usual actions for it, it does mean we could end up in a situation where we have to spend our resources on them when we need them for other things.
Fake Edit: and AN responded like right after i finished writing this:
So its all the extra actions that have to be dedicated to production. Still, a major boon nonetheless, especially if Support ARtisans and Art Patronage are included, which AN didn't mention yet.
Fake Edit 2:
So if nothing else we can keep boosting up our mechanical tech with those actions, and we've got a good source of tech, as well as a good source of wealth by taking stuff like Poppies, which as a trade good should count
@Academia Nut i don't suppose we'll have a "increase case hardening production" option next turn to boost martial and military power that will count for this? -Temp Econ Damage on the other hand is a terrible downgrade. Our previous econ had "event - centralization"...meaning we lost 3 damage reduction. Our Census + Palace give us -2 temp econ damage, so we still have -2, but we used to have -5. the decrease just gets worse if we ever get our centralization high again...if we made it back to 6 cent (which we should imo) we'd have had 8 temp econ reduction...but now we'd only have 3. So that sucks :/ That makes grabbing storehouse x2 and garden x2 more important to me, to hopefully get another reduction point.
-Wealth Generation: Now we only need to be leading to get wealth...but because of how well we pursued our trade goods, that doesn't actually give us a boost yet. Still, it makes it easier to maintain them if we get competition.
-Passive Polices: Now this is amazing. This is already +2 passive policies, and we're almost certain to have 3 or 4 true cities in the nearish future. Add this to free cities giving another, and we could have a lot of passive policies... As is, we could put the two new ones on Infrastructure and get 7 progress a turn, quickly getting another true city and going up to 9 progress a turn, which would be amazing...also, city support can make the econ cost less ridiculous for having so many cities.
-Over-centralization penalties doubled: Ouch...means we need to be way more careful with the afore-suggested city spam. Still, hopefully shouldn't be an issue for a while, and our political system has a high centralization tolerance.
-Low wealth can trigger stability loss: ouch. Luckily we have a lot of wealth generation potential, but we need to watch out right now with our merc spam, among other things...
-Overall a powerful government type, and it + our political system cover each others flaws somewhat. Though i do still half-wish we got mandala to push the one strategy...
And now for my actual vote-
...But. I was literally just finishing up my analysis and going to vote when you posted this. My timing...why has it gotten so bad D= (...Of course that was basically what i wanted to win, aside from maybe going for alchemist, so...)
Edit: Actually, i'd also have wanted hatvalley 2nd in priority, so if it matters maybe add 1 vote to that for priority
Last edited:
DocMatoi
Theoretical Lover of Girls
- Location
- within 2 hours of the White House
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Optimism!
Abby Normal
High Clerk of the Ymaryn
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Oh, and since AN is probably about to start writing, to make sure he sees: I think we should have one more expansion left...or maybe 1 more wealth, if you forgot Efficient Economy? Since that would make it so we actually got 3 overflow to wealth, and make sense for the expansion slots.
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
Considering the fact that Minturn is when Population boom comes into effect it wouldn't have.
Abby Normal
High Clerk of the Ymaryn
- Pronouns
- He/Him
...What? We already got Population Explosion for this turn, it always comes into play during the main turn actions? That's why we're still at max econ?
- Location
- Hell
That is why you always vote first Abby
Incidentally, helping out Txolla and punching Thunder Horse's face in might provide something no one has noticed.
Does anyone have any guesses? It has not been brought up in the thread yet.
He however, has a much greater success at changing the vote. So even if you have a greater number of posts, he still has greater influence. The absence of his influence makes me laugh.
Incidentally, helping out Txolla and punching Thunder Horse's face in might provide something no one has noticed.
Does anyone have any guesses? It has not been brought up in the thread yet.
TheDanishLord
Viking Warlord
- Location
- Denmark
We need
Zhuge Liang
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
Nevermind then.
- Location
- New Zealand
Oh gosh that was a very short vote window, I didn't even finish catching up on the discussion.We just got locked in.
Soooooo here we go!
LET'S RIDE THIS TRAIN!
Aw well, it was close enough to what I wanted to vote for. Let's ride!
- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
Fuck me missed the vote not too messed about the result though.
(E: would have preferred upgrading WHR I think?)
not too messed about the result though.(E: would have preferred upgrading WHR I think?)
Because it's not actually an economic advantage over the long term? You're preventing a chunk of your society from contributing innovations, or at the very least severely limiting their ability to do so.
Last edited:
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
Loyalty.
Since they took over our religious rivals and we may be sort of 'freeing' the Thunder Speakers, into being our vassals, thus gaining religious dominance?
Well, that's sort of two guesses.
We also might recreate the Xoh empire and make them to our liking in terms of principles.