I mean, really truly FULL science would be a mix-and-match of:

Main: Study (metal, health, alchemy, forest, poppies)
Secondary: Study (metal, health, alchemy, forest, poppies)
Secondary: Study (metal, health, alchemy, forest, poppies)

E:
Hell if we REALLY want steel, do

Main: Study Metal
Secondary: Study Metal
Secondary: Study Metal x2

I support this choice.
This plan makes me quite happy!
If only we could... :(
 
Last edited:
Main: Arsenal
Secondary: Trails
Secondary: Palace Shine upgrading to Temple or Trails

That ought to make our production and distribution a bit better for this war.

A real temple for the Shaman King seems proper.
 
Do we really need a secondary war mission this turn? I mean we are painfully low on tech to to the point that we almost cannot take advantage of the full the innovations that come our way.

Main more artisans
Sec Arsenals
Sec Study Metal

Our provinces can handle the fighting for now we need to shore up our inneficiencies. To put it inot peerspective if we do not do this we will be at tech 1.
 
Main: Arsenal
Secondary: Trails
Secondary: Palace Shine upgrading to Temple or Trails

That ought to make our production and distribution a bit better for this war.

A real temple for the Shaman King seems proper.
We actually have word from AN saying building Arsenals is probably a better idea idea for what you want.

*whispers* Build Arsenals...

The thread has determined that this will get Mystic King 3 close access to the artisans and boost our progress in tech ups. There is also synergy talked about with having an arsenal and library and a temple.

E: Oh derp. Ignore everything I said. I didn't see the Main Arsenal.
 
Guys how about we do not take a war mission this turn the provinces can handle the fighting we should focus on new weapon innovations. There is quite a bit of synergy between building an arsenal, supporting our artisans, and studying metal.
 
So, we have large scale mining operations.
We have watermill driven trip hammers to crush the ore.
We have full on iron bloomeries to refine it.
So what, if anything, is stopping us from mass-producing iron things?
 
So, we have large scale mining operations.
We have watermill driven trip hammers to crush the ore.
We have full on iron bloomeries to refine it.
So what, if anything, is stopping us from mass-producing iron things?
Absolutely nothing but we need to tech up more and study metal to fully break into steel and more blackbirds to have finally get a proper spy/assasin network.
 
Anyway, I've been looking at our actions which have the tags "Additional effects", "Potential innovations", "other effects", and "potential new discoveries". This post is probably also in some ways redundant as people have come to similar conclusions already but I don't see the harm in posting this for new people who may not know or are curious.

Here they are collected and organized by those tags.


"Potential Innovations"
Art Patronage - Wealth of the first and second kind can be used to create wealth of the third kind to the benefit of all
*S: -1 Econ, -2 Wealth, +3 Culture, +1 Tech, +1 Prestige, potential innovations
*M: -1 Econ, -4 Wealth, +5 Culture, +1 Tech, +1 Prestige, higher chance of innovations
Build Docks - With large numbers of ships being built, a new place to store them all, the goods they bring in, and a place to build them might be a good idea
*S: -1 Econ, +1 Diplo, increased trade power
*M: -2 Econ, +3 Diplo, potential for new innovations, increased trade power
Build Glassworks - A new material discovered recently, new luxuries and trade goods could be made from relatively cheap materials
*S: -1 Econ, -2 Tech, 1 Sustainable Forest used, +2 Wealth, +2 Culture, chance of new innovations
*M: -2 Econ, -2 Tech, 1 Sustainable Forest used, +2 Wealth, +4 Culture, increased chance of new innovations
Build Mills - By harnessing the power of flowing water, work can be done, freeing up considerable amounts of labour
*S: -2 Wealth, -1 Tech, +3 Econ, potential for innovation
*M: -3 Wealth, - 1 Tech, +4 Econ, increased potential for innovation
Support Artisans - With the growing importance of skilled artisans to the maintenance of society, additional support may sometimes be needed
*S: -1 Econ, -2 Wealth, +3 Tech, +1 Culture, potential innovations
*M: -1 Econ, -4 Wealth, +5 Tech, +1 Culture, higher chance of innovations

These all seem to be actions that generate innovation rolls like the innovation passive does. They also are very artisan and "practical" heavy. These are our applied engineering options I think.


"Other Effects"
Black Soil - There are many places that could benefit from further black soil, but making more is starting to take up more resources than it is currently returning
*S: +2-3 Econ Expansion
*M: -2 Econ, 1 Forest Slot Consumed, +6 Econ Expansion, other effects [King]
* used 3 times
Build Theatre - Having a place for the presentation of plays should be a great way to propagate the People's culture and entertain the masses
*S: -1 Econ, -1 Wealth, -1 Culture, +4 Culture end of turn, other effects
*M: -1 Econ, -2 Wealth, -1 Culture, +4 Culture end of turn, +2 Culture next turn, other effects
New Trails - There are many settlements with only marginal trails, so more could be useful. 2/3 to next Centralization cap increase (5/14)
* S: -1 Econ, +1 Centralization, +1 Diplo, other effects
* M: -2 Econ, +2 Centralization, +2 Diplo, other effects
Plant Hemp - This sturdy plant has been planted in limited quantities before, but you now have cultivars that can take well to being planted in large areas and could use it for
*S: -2 Econ, -2 Econ Expansion, +1 Tech, +1 Mysticism, +2 Diplo if have boats, +1 Econ next turn
*M: -3 Econ, -3 Econ Expansion, +2 Tech, +1 Mysticism, +3 Diplo if have boats, +1 Econ next turn, other effects
Plant Poppies - Within some temple grounds there are gardens where the poppy grows, and the milk of the poppy can be harvested. Expanding production should have interesting effects.
*S: -2 Econ, -2 Econ Expansion, +2 Mysticism, +2 Wealth
*M: -3 Econ, -3 Econ Expansion, +2 Mysticism, +5 Wealth, +1 Martial, new trade good

These are a grab bag of things and it is rather unclear what will happen, aside from poppies getting a trade good and a massive boost to our med tech. I'd say chances for innovation rolls, cool narrative effects and social events.


"Potential discoveries"
Expand Forests - The People have knowledge of how to regrow and repair forests, which extends to bringing them to places they have never been, with considerable effort. With charcoal now in higher demand, can also provide a sustainable supply (7/8 currently locked up)
* S: -2 Econ, -1 Econ Expansion, grows forest, +2 Econ next turn if in settled territory and controlled, potential discoveries, +0.5 Sustainable Forest
* M: -3 Econ, -3 Econ Expansion, grows forest, +4 Econ next turn if in settled and controlled territory, improved odds of success, other effects, +1 Sustainable Forest
Study Alchemy - Materials can be made to transform their form through special treatment. What wonders can be discovered in this process?
*S: -2 Mysticism, -2 Wealth, +1 Tech, potential new discoveries
*M: -4 Mysticism, -3 Wealth, -1 Econ, +1 Tech, increased chance of new discoveries
Study Health - What secrets of nature can be used to improve the health of the People?
* S: -1 Econ, -1 Wealth, +1 Mysticism, potential new discoveries
*M: -1 Econ, -1 Wealth, -1 Mysticism, increased odds of success
Study Metal - Iron and copper, gold and silver, what other secrets are hidden in metal and stone?
* S: -1 Econ, -1 Wealth, -1 Mysticism, +1 Tech, small chance of new insights
* M: -1 Econ, -2 Wealth, -1 Mysticism, improved chance of new insights
Study Stars - What secrets do the heavens hold when you study the stars and their motions carefully? 11 Uses, 0/4 Uses in a Row
*S: -1 Wealth, +3 Mysticism, tiny chance of new insights
Cannot be used as a Main action

Well these seem to be pretty straight forward innovation rolls, and they slot in as our "sciences" and egg head stuff.

"Exploring" sub category
Survey Lands - What interesting discoveries are within the People's lands?
* S: Potential new discoveries
* M: -1 Econ, improved odds of success
Sailing Mission - Boats have proven themselves capable of exploring long distances, so what else might they discover along the shores of the sea?
* S: Potential new discoveries
* M: -1 Econ, improved odds of success

These though are about going to meet new people and find new things, though there is some evidence that if Survey finds the right things(like limestone) they can trigger innovation rolls as well or spawn the option to innovate into new things via opening new tech trees.
Sailing Mission and land based Into the Wild missions can also trigger tech up possibilities I think if we meet interesting new people.


"Additional Effects"
Expand Snail Cultivation - While now more reliably grown and harvested, the snail domestication has only managed to hold environmental changes at bay rather than increase production. More investment would increase cultivation
* S: -1 Econ, +1 Wealth, +1 Culture, potential additional effects
* M: -3 Econ, +3 Wealth, +1 Culture, increased chance of additional effects
More Blackbirds - Elite scouts and woodsmen, the Blackbirds are a potent force, if not exactly mainline fighters. More of them could prove useful
* S: -1 Econ, -1 Mysticism, -1 Wealth, +2 Martial, +1 Culture, many more Blackbirds, additional effects
More Carrion Eaters - Keepers of sacred and profane knowledge, the Carrion Eaters thread a dangerous path but bring valuable knowledge for treating wounds and inspiring courage, greatly bolstering the morale of warriors by ensuring them that their companions are not doomed if they fall. More could prove useful.
*S: -1 Econ, -1 Mysticism, -1 Wealth, +2 Martial, +1 Culture, many more Carrion Eaters, additional effects
More Boats - The things are expensive but oh so useful, so having more of them will increase your capacity for trade, travel, and fishing
*S: -2 Econ, -1 Wealth, +1 Tech; +1 Econ end of turn, +1 Econ, +1 Econ Expansion and Diplo next turn, additional effects
*M: -2 Econ, -1 Wealth, +1 Tech; +1 Econ, Econ Expansion, and Diplo end of turn, additional effects
* used 8 times
Raise Army - More men can be inducted into the ranks of the warriors every year and not face major food shortfalls
* S: -1 Econ, -2 Wealth, +3 Martial, +1 Culture, potential additional effects
*M: -3 Econ, -4 Wealth, +7 Martial, +1 Culture, potential additional effects
*2M: -4 Econ, -5 Wealth, +1 Culture, founds Martial 10 Mercenary Company
Expand Economy - Encourage the growth of food producing activities such as farming, pastures, or fishing, depending on where focus is placed
*S: +3 Econ, -3 Econ Expansion, potential additional effects
*14 Econ Expansion available (max 12 to keep Sacred Forest True City; max 17 for Valleyhome)
Improve Annual Festival - A festival for every season, but their expansion can help put the People at ease and teach good practices.
* S: -1 Econ, -2 Wealth, +1 Stability, +2 Culture, chance for additional effects
* M: -2 Econ, -2 Wealth, +1 Stability, +4 Culture, chance for additional effects
* Max Stability: Legitimacy - 1
Trade Mission - Sending a major caravan to another large group can bring new opportunities and find out more about the outside world
* S: -2 Wealth, additional effects depending on target, +1-2 Diplo
* M: -2 Wealth, -1 Econ, additional effects depending on target, +1 Diplo, +1-3 Diplo end of turn, +0-2 Wealth end of turn

These options are incredibly varied and are dependent on the context of the action itself. So you can get things from innovation rolls, to social advancement, to army strategic and tactical advances. The ultimate grab bag if you will.


And that's just my little thought on these to satiate my curiosity.


So, we have large scale mining operations.
We have watermill driven trip hammers to crush the ore.
We have full on iron bloomeries to refine it.
So what, if anything, is stopping us from mass-producing iron things?
Nothing really. In fact I think we already are in a lot of cases. To reach a more noticeable full swing though may only take more time for the mills to expand and things to build up in scale.

Arsenals could in theory help with that by prototyping new and more efficient methods.
 
Seeing as we have a mysticism king, shrine and arsenal are our best immediate choices for annexes.

Now if only we had the extra infrastructure passive instead of defensive we could be one turning two at once.
 
I fully expect an arsenal to give us an increased innovation chance and +1 tech a turn. So any more thought on my plan of

Main Support Artisans
Sec Build Arsenal
Sec Study metal

I feel this is a good plan for breaking into steel or just better weapons and armor over all. So while the provinces are fighting, the central government should support them by giving them better weapons and making transporting soldiers and supplies to the battlefield more efficient.
 
Has anyone considered a main study metal to increase our chances for steel discovery?
 
Has anyone considered a main study metal to increase our chances for steel discovery?

I think that we should wait for the repricing of projects by new government and strategic report about the war before commiting to any course of actions.
I mean, if Khemetri are winning but have not won yet, we need to throw even more into grinder; if they are on backfoot or in stalemate, we can afford to play longer game and focus on innovating; if Thunder Horse hear rumours of us being at war with peer power and beeline for Valleyhome from the east, any plans go out of the window too.

Roughly, if we have a breathting room, Arsenal + Metal + War Mission in some combination have my vote.

EDIT: Thing about innovation is that with all the infrastructure, we are soon going to have a ton of True Cities each giving innovation rolls, so we do not really have to do it via central government.
 
Last edited:
I think that we should wait for the repricing of projects by new government and strategic report about the war before commiting to any course of actions.
I mean, if Khemetri are winning but have not won yet, we need to throw even more into grinder; if they are on backfoot or in stalemate, we can afford to play longer game and focus on innovating; if Thunder Horse hear rumours of us being at war with peer power and beeline for Valleyhome from the east, any plans go out of the window too.

Roughly, if we have a breathting room, Arsenal + Metal + War Mission in some combination have my vote.

EDIT: Thing about innovation is that with all the infrastructure, we are soon going to have a ton of True Cities each giving innovation rolls, so we do not really have to do it via central government.
I agree with most of what you have said, but I think we should put a support artisan in there instead of a War Mission if we have an advantage next turn.

It gives us the tech to make use of any innovations we might make with metal without having to suppress future innovation rolls.
 
My opinion:
{M1} New Trails - Everyone complains about how our logistics and etc. can be improved. Increased centralization & cent cap is nice. It's not necessary but if this war ends up being a long haul sort of thing improved internal logistics will enhance our ability to throw force at this and future problems. Plus, it gets us to 7/14, half-way to having good roads.
{M2} Study Metal - On the other hand, we have a Heroic Mysticism King. He, if anyone, is the person most likely to give us steel. He's likely to die soon, too.
{S-mandatory} Build Arsenal - Infrastructure policy = 3 progress/turn. I figure that just a secondary will still give us an arsenal.
{S-alternate 1} Support Artisans - We are low on Tech, and potential innovations are nice. Plus, it synergizes w/ the Arsenal.
{S-alternate 2} War Mission - I can see the benefit in symphonizing w/ our war missions, but we will need to wait and see whether the Khem sound like a challenging enough opponent to require an extra two secondaries, or whatever symphony would give us.
 
Last edited:
A single secondary will explicitly give us an arsenal. Some people just want two.
I think most people are banking on a Grand Arsenal giving us more stuff than a regular arsenal.

To give as a comparison: It took 2 Palace Library Annexes for it to function as a proper Library.
It would take 2 Shrine Palace Annexes for the Shrine to function as a Temple.

It makes sense to then think that 2 Arsenal Palace Annexes would have a much greater effect than 1 Arsenal Palace Annex.

At least, that would be my reasoning for going for a Main Arsenal instead of a Secondary one.

Oh. Right. Our action power changed. Kk.
I can definitely see wanting 2, though.

What should we spend the remaining annexi on?
I would totally want to get another Shrine Annex, just so we can finally get that Temple to Mythmulnin and get the 2x Library 2x Temple 2x Arsenal Synergy AN talked about a while back.
 
Last edited:
They way for us to win without fighting is to have our mythic hero pull a Moses and challenge their regius authority.

@Academia Nut : Does our king know any cool magic trick?
 
I agree with most of what you have said, but I think we should put a support artisan in there instead of a War Mission if we have an advantage next turn.

It gives us the tech to make use of any innovations we might make with metal without having to suppress future innovation rolls.

Again, True Citites seem to be giving passive innovation rolls, so if you want more innovation rolls, you need to invest into aqueducts, it seems.
And into artisans to pay Tech costs, and into Trails to offset Centralization costs.

But, like...Khemetri likely have at least equal population, their equivalent of The Button (!) and their whole kingdom is at stake. This is going to be extremely painful, so...we may need to spend every single action on War Missions, depending on how it goes.
 
Back
Top