- Location
- Philippines
But we already have waves of bodies in the form of the three merc companies and our current martial of fifteen what we need right now is to tech up what we need now are elites and better equipment for our troops.
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
Abby Normal
High Clerk of the Ymaryn
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Early Classical didn't have it listed either:
Government Type
Early Classical Elective Monarchy
A king holds chief executive power, but is primarily drawn from and voted in by a limited set of families backed by economic might and military elites.
Upper Centralization Limit: High
Lower Centralization Limit: Neutral
Possible Economic Systems: Palace, Manorial, Classic Mercantile
Heroic King: Rare
Idiot King: Very Rare
Regency: N/A
Player Actions: 1 Main + 2 Secondary
Province Actions: 1/2 Provinces Secondary
Admin-Free True Cities: Capital only
Subordinates: 1 + Prestige/10
Special: Subordinate Dependency +1
But it was still an option the last action phase, as i quoted above.
King has a penalty to those, so disfavored somewhat.
Current maxed stats are:Sure, teching metalworking is a good idea. We need basic steel. Also, we should plan for whatever combo to leave two stats maxed next midturn to trigger golden age.
I really want to see the Khemetri faces when they get the announcement.
-Diplomacy - Can spend 1
-Economy - Can spend 10
-Wealth - Can spend 0
On Offense, unless we manage to spend 10+ Econ, we literally cannot unmax it.
So we just need to watch out for Wealth and Diplomacy costs.
So lets see, proposed options so far:
-Megaproject - Depends on the project, but I suspect strong pushback at present against the idea.
-Study Metal - Costs Wealth and Mysticism
-Study Alchemy - Costs Wealth and Mysticism
-More Blackbirds - Costs Wealth and Mysticism
-Raise Army - Costs Wealth
-Build Watchtowers - Costs Econ only.
-Terrify - Costs Diplomacy
-War Mission - Costs Martial only
So I'd say Golden Age plans:
Plan Hard and Tall
-Main Study Metal
-Main Watchtowers
Main Study Metal under a Heroic Mystic to get Steel for the war effort. Rapid conversion may cost Tech however.
Plan You Don't Like Me When I'm Angry
-Main War Mission
-Secondary Terrify
-Secondary Watchtowers
Spends only Diplomacy and Economy to terrorize them to try to flip their colony outright as we march basically the whole country into them.
May fail Golden Age depending on what our provinces do(there is a chance of them spending Wealth to make more Martial).
Plan Hot and Hard
-Main Study Alchemy
-Main Study Metal
This has our heroic science going straight into material techs.
Metal for Steel, Alchemy...we already have Lime and a lot of fun reagents. Primitive explosives or incendiaries make great terror weapons.
Plan Caw Caw
-Main Watchtowers
-Secondary Blackbirds
-Secondary Study Metal
Or swap the metal with the towers. Basically goes for defenses while teching up.
Lots of ways to do it, but we probably won't get a Golden Age if we use Terrify at all.
Eh, it'd finish on it's own next turn. I'd prefer to commit that to the war effort.
Eh, the passive policy will cover it if it's a priority.
Not quite, we hadn't gotten the social/massed blackbird applications yet. We only got a few archery uptechs.
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
Once again, we're dealing with a potentially superior civilization here. Three merc companies and fifteen martial may not be enough. And we need the stuff at the front right now - working towarts a tech upgrade in three turns is not sufficient.
- Location
- Australia
I have another idea.
Why don't we integrate the Stallion Tribes next turn? We could do this:
[Main] Integrate March - Stallion Tribes
[Secondary] Retraining
[Secondary] Found Mercenary Company
I think that this plan is a very good plan. It does three things:
1. Finally integrates the Stallion Tribes and does so with a Heroic Mystic King, which should ease the religious friction.
2. Gives us a big boost to Martial which will boost our provinces' war missions.
3. It gets us out of Tech 0 and better ensures we don't go over-Martial.
4. The mercenary company means we still effectively send a Main War Mission against the Khemetri, and with just a Secondary to boot.
Why don't we integrate the Stallion Tribes next turn? We could do this:
[Main] Integrate March - Stallion Tribes
[Secondary] Retraining
[Secondary] Found Mercenary Company
I think that this plan is a very good plan. It does three things:
1. Finally integrates the Stallion Tribes and does so with a Heroic Mystic King, which should ease the religious friction.
2. Gives us a big boost to Martial which will boost our provinces' war missions.
3. It gets us out of Tech 0 and better ensures we don't go over-Martial.
4. The mercenary company means we still effectively send a Main War Mission against the Khemetri, and with just a Secondary to boot.
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pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon
I like all those plans. Hard and Tall most I think.
- Location
- Austria
If we somehow lost Doube Main option, than government upgrade was not worth it when compared to Social Value slot or more techs.
Why not Double Main Study Metal?
But seriously, I think Double Main War Mission (if we have those) + Secondary New Trails/More Blackbirds/Support Artisans is a way.
Abby Normal
High Clerk of the Ymaryn
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I'm stillskeptical of getting much on that front...i think we've had at least 2 main blackbirds with no innovations now? Also, for your plans note that only secondary study metal gives +1 tech; that's my reason for supporting it.
- Location
- Australia
The Kings penalty has to do with anything to do with the war. a 2main raise army is to get our martial as high as possible for next turn without killing us with red martial. And we need a new Mercenary Company anyway. Just look at it and see us wining in 2 turns.
Raise Army - More men can be inductedinto the ranks of the warriors every year and not face major food shortfalls
* S: -1 Econ, -2 Wealth, +3 Martial, +1 Culture, potential additional effects
*M: -3 Econ, -4 Wealth, +7 Martial, +1 Culture, potential additional effects
*2M: -4 Econ, -5 Wealth, +1 Culture, founds Martial 10 Mercenary Company
Steel is a relatively easier breakthrough than say, Crossbows at this point.
We just hadn't taken Study Metal in forever.
We were able to deploy iron weapons in time for the war.
Steel is much faster to transition.
And for a sense of scale:
Provinces: 6
Actions: 3 New Secondary/Old Mains
Law Bonus: 1 New Main/Old Double Main
Total War Missions committed, 2 New Mains, aka Old Quadruple Mains
Through mathematical assessment of amount of troops lost previously, Old Secondary War Mission commits 2 Martial. New Mains commit 8. We're committing 16 Martial on War Missions. That's more Martial than we have until the Carrion Eaters come in.
We're throwing 4 Mercenary companies if we ship the Red Banner in.
Assume Trelli Mercs are crappier and give only 4 Martial each, Red Banner give 8 Martial.
Mercenaries contribute 20 Martial.
Gulvalley is fighting and they have their 8-12 Martial from when they were a March. Plus whatever Econ they have. They'd throw all of it in because they only have the one settlement to defend anyway.
44-48 Martial is being thrown at their one point.
Every man and woman who can lift a weapon is going to the field, as in, there is a reasoable supposition that our provinces are forced to Raise Army or More Blackbirds to add enough dudes to send if we take our own War Mission.
So consider the location we're fighting in. River valley systems.
Not reputed for being good at throwing large numbers into.
As such, I'd argue that throwing numbers at the problem isn't helping as much as retooling to Steel or other means of leveraging our Heroic Mystic to tech through the problem.
- Location
- United States
Double Main Raise Army doesn't actually add to our martial, it just immediately raises 10 martial worth of troops and then forms them into a mercenary company. So we would still have the same martial as before, we would just also have a 10 martial mercenary company.
Innovation rolls, we did those a long time ago and things have changed a lot since.
Either way, Blackbirds are the nastiest units in forested river valleys. They'd be good even without the science
Powerofmind
In Madness Fallen
- Location
- United States
For @Susano and... whoever he was arguing against. There were a lot.
There is no inherent hereditary component to any economic style. Any hereditary elements would be natural hold-overs from the government systems put in place above them, or social frameworks already in place in the local area. CONCLUSION: Mandala, Manor, and both Mercantilisms will be equivalently hereditary (I.E. de facto, which they already are) and none of them will naturally promote increased hereditary policies.
The ideal means of managing a polity's economy is different based on Technology, Scope, and Society. The lower the general technological level of a polity, the better a centralized and managed economy is. If a few powerful people have explicit control of the economy as 'elected nobility', that lends a lot of direct management and centralization, certainly more than state capitalism.
The larger a polity in scope, the harder it is to centralize. This is evidenced by the total collapse of the Palace System, where the bureaucratic and physical expanse has grown so large that waste would be unavoidable and huge if we tried to manage every drop of every resource we know of.
The general culture and moors of society also matter quite a lot. As seen in the paragraphs above, it is the society that informs the way an economic model is run. European Republics were few and far between, but all of them were still near-hereditary oligarchies at best. The Roman republic, in it's early days, was comparatively democratic-republic for it's time period. The American Republic-Democracy is so far removed from either as to question the need for a new term entirely! It is less a matter of our understanding of the word, and more theirs.
In accordance with the Technology, Scope, and Society of the Ymarran, a number of centralized locations with explicitly empowered individuals in charge would be best for management of food and tax obligations (which is what the 'economy upgrade' vote is about). CONCLUSION: Mandala is a good choice; interdependent central hubs for goods and obligations, owing larger fractions of their output to a regional hub, which is interconnected with other regions, which in turn owe larger fractions to a central, palace hub. Manorial is a good choice; hubs are organized to gather obligations and food and have independent ability to distribute back to the ground level, with resources owed up the lines of power being obligations of their own rather than natural, interdependent tributes. In either case, resources mostly make their way to the top, but local hubs distribute back to the populace before passing the excess around and up the line in an organized, non-profit fashion. The mercantile systems of guilds or free mercantilism, on the other hand, place the entire burden of economic supply on the traders, with the government, at best, heavily regulating the sale and hand-changing of foodstuffs and necessities (requiring the formation of entire primitive agencies to actually enforce such oversight). This opens an entire population demographic to widespread exploitative actions that would occur in such small but pervasive ways that the polity would need to invent new forms and means of gaining redress and restitution.
This conclusion will likely change as the times change, as the polity expands, and as the Ymarran develop more advanced cultural ideas, however, at the present time, and likely for the next two to three centuries (less likely but still probably the next millennium), MANDALA OR MANORIAL ECONOMIES are the best way to handle things with the lowest resultant corruption, the lowest resultant complexity, and the lowest resultant stress on current communications/transport developments, while still benefiting from smaller innovations and without promoting unwanted-in-the-near-future cultural shifts too strongly.
There is no inherent hereditary component to any economic style. Any hereditary elements would be natural hold-overs from the government systems put in place above them, or social frameworks already in place in the local area. CONCLUSION: Mandala, Manor, and both Mercantilisms will be equivalently hereditary (I.E. de facto, which they already are) and none of them will naturally promote increased hereditary policies.
The ideal means of managing a polity's economy is different based on Technology, Scope, and Society. The lower the general technological level of a polity, the better a centralized and managed economy is. If a few powerful people have explicit control of the economy as 'elected nobility', that lends a lot of direct management and centralization, certainly more than state capitalism.
The larger a polity in scope, the harder it is to centralize. This is evidenced by the total collapse of the Palace System, where the bureaucratic and physical expanse has grown so large that waste would be unavoidable and huge if we tried to manage every drop of every resource we know of.
The general culture and moors of society also matter quite a lot. As seen in the paragraphs above, it is the society that informs the way an economic model is run. European Republics were few and far between, but all of them were still near-hereditary oligarchies at best. The Roman republic, in it's early days, was comparatively democratic-republic for it's time period. The American Republic-Democracy is so far removed from either as to question the need for a new term entirely! It is less a matter of our understanding of the word, and more theirs.
In accordance with the Technology, Scope, and Society of the Ymarran, a number of centralized locations with explicitly empowered individuals in charge would be best for management of food and tax obligations (which is what the 'economy upgrade' vote is about). CONCLUSION: Mandala is a good choice; interdependent central hubs for goods and obligations, owing larger fractions of their output to a regional hub, which is interconnected with other regions, which in turn owe larger fractions to a central, palace hub. Manorial is a good choice; hubs are organized to gather obligations and food and have independent ability to distribute back to the ground level, with resources owed up the lines of power being obligations of their own rather than natural, interdependent tributes. In either case, resources mostly make their way to the top, but local hubs distribute back to the populace before passing the excess around and up the line in an organized, non-profit fashion. The mercantile systems of guilds or free mercantilism, on the other hand, place the entire burden of economic supply on the traders, with the government, at best, heavily regulating the sale and hand-changing of foodstuffs and necessities (requiring the formation of entire primitive agencies to actually enforce such oversight). This opens an entire population demographic to widespread exploitative actions that would occur in such small but pervasive ways that the polity would need to invent new forms and means of gaining redress and restitution.
This conclusion will likely change as the times change, as the polity expands, and as the Ymarran develop more advanced cultural ideas, however, at the present time, and likely for the next two to three centuries (less likely but still probably the next millennium), MANDALA OR MANORIAL ECONOMIES are the best way to handle things with the lowest resultant corruption, the lowest resultant complexity, and the lowest resultant stress on current communications/transport developments, while still benefiting from smaller innovations and without promoting unwanted-in-the-near-future cultural shifts too strongly.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
You're neglecting the New Trails idea, there. I suspect Hatvalley doesn't have great trails for moving large quantities of warriors there, after all...
If AN has our provinces passively fill in one of our limited annex spots without player approval, there will be riots.
No, we're not getting the annex without voting for it and spending an action.
- Location
- Madness realms
So which way did the vote go?
Concho117
Going really fast!
- Location
- Somewhere in Orbit
Offense won.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Copy paste error, corrected.
Well, neither you nor the Khemetri have won yet for one thing.
However, you currently have a problem with copyright infringement.
You have also discovered a bit more about the Khemetri, in that they have a god-king set up that allows them to burn religious authority in the place of stability so long as their RA is above a certain threshold (Stability rapidly drops if it is below this threshold), and so long as their prestige is high they can also boost their RA more efficiently (although they do just also throw Econ at temples). They need their prestige for both holding onto their many, many colonies, and to keep their central government functioning.
*whispers* Build Arsenals...
- Location
- his hidden lair
That would make both narrative sense, and be extremely useful for this conflict. I still think the thread will throw a fit over it sadly.
Powerofmind
In Madness Fallen
- Location
- United States
So basically, if they lose this war, their entire civ will go up in smoke?
Which assholes went out and blocked a pass with a small contingent of warriors for several days?
You think the great hall expansion was only allowed because the space was already set out then? Seems possible but I wouldn't say that's a certainty. Some of the expansions are pretty clear cut anyway.
Hm. Strategic uses of Terrify do hit their stability to force them to burn RA?
Can Terrify be used more than once in a turn to inflict a stability hit on a peer or only once?
Any spoilers on that copyright infringement? Are our Blackbirds using Longboats to LARP Vikings?
- Location
- his hidden lair
And I think we now know who has that Colonies legacy
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Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
What is this copyright infringement and are we going to get a chance to develop laws against if