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Paths of Civilization

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Please keep things civil and tone neutral. I don't want mods to lock the thread over heated bickering.
 
Shard said:
I'm not keen on the pastures options.
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To be fair, the pasture option would increase our Economy and make all our construction projects go easier. Hmm...

Turn 1 (this turn):
Main: Restoration of Harmony
Secondary: Pastures
Turn 2:
Main: New Trails
Secondary: Step-Farms
Turn 3:
Main: New Settlement/Build Wall
Secondary: Build Wall/New Settlement

@tryrar, is that compromise acceptable? Also, are you from Bay 12?

tryrar said:
So your solution to the DPs is to stick our heads in the sand, ignore them, and hope they collapse. Sending unsupported war missions isn't going to make them go away and get us out of Holy War any faster, you know.
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My solution to the DPs is to ignore them for a while, focus on ourselves, and come out stronger than we would otherwise with another plan.
 
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Umi-san said:
The main benefit would be that it would kill/motivate to move a bunch of the settlements they prey on.

Canal is probably a wiser choice as it would integrate our valley and coastal cities by making travel between them easier and providing a length of land that would probably be farmed as we divert water from the canal.
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Fair enough, but as we all know we really can't afford a mega project now. :sad:
 
I still want to do Settlement next turn, since that's an Econ neutral action the turn it's built, true, but it adds +1 Econ then next turn. Combined with New Trails we should be in a very good position to wear down the DPs.

I think the fundamental disagreement we have is I DON'T think we should ignore them for a while-after all, while we're focusing on us, they're also raiding our allies and getting stronger. If we keep raiding THEM effectively, we can slow their advance, and we have several plans to do this without tanking our economy.

Remember, if we can get a good result from the war, people will be also be happier due to Holy War, and Trails helps that by providing much better logistics to the lowlands.

Edit:But if trails HAS to lose, I'd prefer it to lose to Pastures, since more animals also helps with the war due to better ability to haul War Carts.
 
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Academia Nut said:
It goes further up into rough mountains that are not water navigable, and people have explored up there for the hell of it, but there's better land elsewhere. People likely have lived there in the past, but environmental perturbations likely drove them to abandon the areas and join up with your people. Much of its navigable length is only semi-navigable as it cuts through forested hills. A large chunk of the watershed on the western bank was the area where you fought the Blight and while much of it is still relatively wild, a few thousand people have taken up semi-permanent residence in the region to manage large chunks of the forest. There are some good flint deposits, some quartzy regions, quality clay beds, and a few spots where good sandstone can be found, but there's not much really exotic to the People's knowledge.
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*sighs* my geology knowledge isn't sufficient enough to guess if there are worthwhile metals up there.
Has anyone ever climbed all the way up the highest mountain in that area and looked down the other side? If so, what did they see? If not, why didn't they?

VoidZero said:
Please keep things civil and tone neutral. I don't want mods to lock the thread over heated bickering.
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lel
Shard said:
The conversion of plant energy to animal energy is an inefficient one; I think we could feed more people with Step-Farms than Pastures.
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It's 100% true that we can feed more people with Step-Farms than Pastures, the issue is how muscular and etc. those people are. It's also worth noting that a varied diet changes your body's microfauna, possibly allowing you to satisfactorily digest more food as you will have a greater variety of bacteria that are each better at digesting different things. Notably, yoghurt and unpasteurized cheese are excellent in this regard.
But mostly we just want more muscular people and it's hard to get muscular on a vegetarian diet, even if it's a pescetarian one.

bluefur87 said:
Fair enough, but as we all know we really can't afford a mega project now. :sad:
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Yeah I'm not interested in building the mega project until ~4 turns from now.
 
Andres110 said:
This is objectively wrong. The Economy stat has been explained by Academia Nut to refer to food and people, nothing else. Trade goods and luxuries boost Art and Diplomacy, but drain Economy in doing so. They don't increase it.

As for logistics, getting more food - and thus more Economy - will allow us to pay for the war. With all the many costs we'd need to pay for this multi-generational war (including building and supporting the settlement), increasing food production early is important for any long-term strategy.
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That is a misunderstanding from reading only part of my post. I did not mention trade, but was talking about expected benefits relating to the war. It will reduce costs during the war. Our Economy stat is low(3), but far from danger(1). More places to grow food(new settlement) then increased food will be better than increased food alone.

Andres110 said:
There is another reason to switch to Step-Farms. Even though they provide good effects as far as our warmaking efforts go, it's also something to do besides fight the war, which is something we never should've begun to do in the first place, at least not for 3 generations. The fact that people want food more than they want the Dead Priests dead means we can do what we should be doing in the first place without suffering from internal issues.


I have already given several long-term war-related reasons as to why we should do Step-Farms. Read them before you accuse me of not thinking long-term.

EDIT: We are going to spend a lot of Economy on the war regardless of what we do. Building more step farms will increase our Economy as it increases food. Not building them will negatively impact our Economy more than building them would.
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Can you link to your post giving long term war-related reasons. All I can find is posts about it boosting Economy and pretending the war did not happen.
Why do you think the war should have not happened? The Dead Priests are barely losing/holding steady with our involvement. Without us they would be winning. True we would have fixed our internal issues, but we would have then been overwhelmed by the massively superior DP military.

Andres110 said:
It will be 2 generations this turn and our contributions have been minor to negligible, so I'll have to dispute your claim that our involvement has made any difference in regards to the WC's status. I'm not saying we shouldn't do the trails, just that this turn isn't the best time to do them. If we rush the settlement process we'll be low on or without Economy when we start picking Expand Warriors/War Carts after we're done with it, so an Economy action now will ensure we still have some left in the tank when we've done all the preparations to ramp up the war. Step farms may not provide good nutrition for our fighters, but that's not the point. The point is to increase Economy which is what step farms will do, with the added bonuses of finishing off the technology in preparation for the new settlement.
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You appear to have missed that every post planning on new settlement has pastures (increase Economy) before Expand Warriors.


We both think Step-Farms should be done, in my view it should have occurred earlier. Now is not a good time.
Andres110 said:
I'll fully list my problems with Build War Carts here to make things as clear as possible.

-Build War Carts is meant to increase our ability to fight war and decrease our Economy, which will trigger Pioneering Spirit with the ensuing strife and increase our Economy at the cost of our Centralisation.
-Centralisation improves our ability to fight war, survive ecological disaster, and do group projects. Fighting war is a group project, as are actions that improve Economy.
-Our property and food distribution is communal, which means it's a group project and falls under Centralisation. Decreasing our ability to manage and distribute food will decrease our Economy, which goes against the point of activating PS in the first place.
-Our Harmony Spiritual Value dictates that everyone must be harmonious. Pioneering Spirit activating would mean people acting in disharmony, which goes against Harmony. More strife will be generated, which will activate PS again, which clashes with Harmony, and thus produces even more strife. Our Centralisation will go way down, we will lose the Harmony value, we enter into a death spiral, and/or we are forced to suffer an unknown bad thing. All of this decreases our ability to do anything.

Build War Carts is a bad idea at this point. A very bad one. Increasing strife is not a good thing, which is something that should be obvious but apparently isn't.
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Chrestomanci said:
[X] Formalize breaking and exposure
[X] Any who are interested may join the fight
[X] [Secondary] Step-Farms
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Andres110 said:
We should probably kill the Dead Priests before they do a mega project.
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Now they have finished it is more important not less.
 
I just had an amusing thought on if we Mained walls and seconded settlement, we might end up accidentally inventing the Fort :p
 
Andres110 said:
To be fair, the pasture option would increase our Economy and make all our construction projects go easier. Hmm...

Turn 1 (this turn):
Main: Restoration of Harmony
Secondary: Pastures
Turn 2:
Main: New Trails
Secondary: Step-Farms
Turn 3:
Main: New Settlement/Build Wall
Secondary: Build Wall/New Settlement

@tryrar, is that compromise acceptable? Also, are you from Bay 12?


My solution to the DPs is to ignore them for a while, focus on ourselves, and come out stronger than we would otherwise with another plan.
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A better plan but results in the DPs having more time to expand in our direction. If we roll better than they do it will be very successful, but if they roll better then we would have worse problems than other plans.

tryrar said:
I just had an amusing thought on if we Mained walls and seconded settlement, we might end up accidentally inventing the Fort :p
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That is basically what we are aiming for, main walls seconded settlement if Econ stat is good, main settlement seconded walls if Econ stat is not.
 
Tonight on the history channel! Engineering an Empire: How the Valley People Conquered the Lowlands

Seriously, we need to get writing ASAP so that we can record it for future posterity.
 
*Looks at inexplicable swing*
Nobody even considered that trails reduce the cost of waging war across a long distance instead of just pressing the bread button?

The trails ultimately aim to cut costs, bolster trade and expedite putting a fort down there so we CAN hit the Dead Priests in force and also claim prime farmland in the process.

Taking Step Farms pushes everything a generation back and simply gives the Dead Priests more time to work on a countermeasure for us. It doesn't even help the Instability problem, we want farms because its literally a core culture value, but we're not facing Instability due to starvation or lacks, but due to trust issues and corruption. People are in favor of the war, but not in favor of how it's so far away and how the dead priests aren't just standing there to die.

It won't take very long before they realize slaves could dig ditches everywhere to kill war cart mobility and turn it into infantry fights. We did it to the Nomads ourselves.

Then they just need to prey harder on the WC to grow.
Umi-san said:
Whether they're in the forest or not depends on partly on if there are non-forested areas that are close enough to work with, far enough to not smell the manure (which isn't burning, we burn and then grind the charcoal separately), and not used for other tasks. The forest, imo, is unlikely due to tree roots, though maybe the pits can be shallow enough that this doesn't matter. I also just may not have a good grasp in regard to tree roots.
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Our entire civilization is in forests except for settlements. Even our farms are interlaced with orchards.

So they'd share the same microflora.

Tree roots isn't a special problem here for that reason. They're everywhere. We count on it.
 
Kiba said:
Tonight on the history channel! Engineering an Empire: How the Valley People Conquered the Lowlands

Seriously, we need to get writing ASAP so that we can record it for future posterity.
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This is what I want to see omake's of if anyone wants ideas. *Looks at blight*

Kiba said:
I am honestly tempted to just keep spamming trails + settlements + walls + pasture until we finally reach their megacity.
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What do you mean tempted? Add in forests and getting to the city or until they economically collapse due to constant harassment is literally our plan. With breaks in between to allow for alternate economic growth and military build up.

At least that's what I have been proposing this entire time.
 
Our borders are literally delineated by our Sacred Forest. Once you cross that treeline, you're in OUR lands, watched over by huge black birds. And every generation, the forest grows closer, and closer...

It's like a multigenerational horror story! Now we just have to balance it against everything ELSE we're trying to do, and we'll be golden!

2680
 
Sivantic said:
Overconsumption via livestock.

Though Shapers of the land covers that...
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veekie said:
That...actually I don't think anything stops that unless the DPs come up with a new trick...
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The fact that there's a drought cycle coming will stop this somewhat. Expand Forest as a main will help reduce damage tho, and we're forewarned so we'll have decent food supplies as long as we keep our econ at 4 or so on a regular basis.
 
[X] Northern Nomads (Honour Value likely)
[X] [Main] War Mission: Dead Priest
[X] [Secondary] New Trails
[] [Secondary] [] Build Wall

edit to remove wall vote.
 
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