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Paths of Civilization

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Raichu1972 said:
We elected a Nomad who was familiar with our people and customs and explicitly was trying to understand us and how we govern.

A conquering nomad would do no such thing, and would rule however they pleased because they were strong and we were weak. They would try to attack all of our neighbors, and when we inevitably started to lose land, we would spiral into a failure cascade and fracture into a million pieces.
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So, if bribe or tribute don't work, we'll have to fight to the death to avoid being ruled by a nomad who would ruin our civilization through a war of conquest. Damn.
 
[X] [Census] Streamline lower bureaucracy (+1 Passive Policy)
[X] [Crisis] Instruct and reprimand rule breakers (Sec Restore Order + Sec Proclaim Glory)
[X] [Diplo] Attempt to bribe the Lightning Wolves (Sec Trade Mission + Sec Targeted Salt Gift)
[X] [React] Begin work on Iron Age Law Reform (-3 Mysticism, -1 Art per action, 3-4? actions required)
 
[X] [Census] Streamline lower bureaucracy (+1 Passive Policy)
[X] [Crisis] Instruct and reprimand rule breakers (Sec Restore Order + Sec Proclaim Glory)
[X] [Diplo] Attempt to bribe the Lightning Wolves (Sec Trade Mission + Sec Targeted Salt Gift)
[X] [React] Stabilize the People (Main Improve Annual Festival)

So somebody else figured out iron huh? Well no matter, we just need to do a few study metal actions until we come up with steel. We've been making iron for such a long time and in such vast quantities somebody must have noticed some accidental steel.

Which reminds me...

@Academia Nut what ever happened to those "mechanical bows that shoot rocks" we put so much resources into? I haven't seen any mention of them since that turn where we chose how much resources went into studying them.
 
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Andres110 said:
We can't attack the Metal Workers. They've done nothing wrong, they don't deserve to be attacked by us.
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Well, they stole/reverse-engineered our strategic tech that nobody else had, which can very reasonably be called an act of war.

Lilithium said:
Has the corruption that's regressed our people managed to reach forward past the screen? Have they gone mad? Just what was the point of waxing poetic about friendly happy hard working dwarfelf farmers? Where did our hobbits go to?

This conduct is not ghibbli.
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Everyone has a price.
 
tryrar said:
ook, when you keep coming up with these half-baked ideas it's hard to be objective about this. I mean, do you stop to think what it sounds like when you say you want nomads to get iron so they can stomp our March for us to reduce their martial, so we can integrate them without having to lift a finger to deal with our martial? That's almost cartoon level villainy there.

And yes, they're going to get iron eventually, there's no stopping that, but we can delay it. And that's good enough for now.
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That's practicality.

And no, we really can't. The second refugees spread from the Metal Workers, iron is in the playground. And refugees will spread, because they're a confederation instead of a centralized state like us. All it takes is one bad harvest.

More, if our merchants have sold to them, then they've likely sold to other people as well. The cat's out of the bag, the genies out of the lamp, the horse is out of the barn and heading for the horizon. We can't change that, we can only deal with it. Nomads with iron is going to be a thing now, we might as well get what we can out of it.

Thought of the Day: The Chinese use two brush strokes to write the word 'crisis.' One brush stroke stands for danger; the other for opportunity. In a crisis, be aware of the danger--but recognize the opportunity.
 
[X] [Census] Efficient land redistribution (Main DL, does not make management harder)
[X] [Crisis] Consult the priests (+1 RA, +1 Stability, ???)
[X] [Diplo] Hit these nomads before they get going (Main War Mission + Redeploy Red Banner)
[X] [React] Stabilize the People (Main Improve Annual Festival)

So~~ that happened. Preparing war in the north.
 
Andres110 said:
This is incorrect. We get those stat boosts only for untargeted Salt Gifts. For Salt Gifts targeted towards nomads, the rewards are different. Remember the last time we did a Main Salt Gift to nomads: it was to the nomads who would become the Heaven's Hawks, and all that did was give us Prestige and friendship. If you want the stat increases, do an untargeted Salt Gift, not one targeted to nomads.
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No, what we specifically did was give the salt to someone so that they could use the salt as a salt gift. We were even warned it had modified results because of this in the choice.
 
notgreat said:
You read the chart wrong, Art->Wealth->Diplo->Mysticism.
(And as you noted caps have changed)
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Mmm, not exactly opposed to the Law winning FYI, I just like the Festival + Restore + Proclaim narrative, and the rest were frosting on the cake(which has now tragically become frostingless)
Andres110 said:
This is incorrect. We get those stat boosts only for untargeted Salt Gifts. For Salt Gifts targeted towards nomads, the rewards are different. Remember the last time we did a Main Salt Gift to nomads: it was to the nomads who would become the Heaven's Hawks, and all that did was give us Prestige and friendship. If you want the stat increases, do an untargeted Salt Gift, not one targeted to nomads.
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We've done targeted salt gifts before. They return stats as normal unless stated otherwise. In the case of the Hawks it set them up for diplo annexation.
In which case not getting the return is kind of a good thing, since it means we probably managed to hire them somehow :p
 
PrimalShadow said:
Well, they stole/reverse-engineered our strategic tech that nobody else had, which can very reasonably be called an act of war.


Everyone has a price.
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They didn't steal it, they were sold it by our fucking idiotic merchants.

The Metal Workers did nothing besides take an opportunity available to them.

It was our stupid merchants that fucked up and sold it to them in the first place, and I hope that Restore Order cracks down on all the asshats who did.
 
Hangwind said:
That's practicality.

And no, we really can't. The second refugees spread from the Metal Workers, iron is in the playground. And refugees will spread, because they're a confederation instead of a centralized state like us. All it takes is one bad harvest.

More, if our merchants have sold to them, then they've likely sold to other people as well. The cat's out of the bag, the genies out of the lamp, the horse is out of the barn and heading for the horizon. We can't change that, we can only deal with it. Nomads with iron is going to be a thing now, we might as well get what we can out of it.

Thought of the Day: The Chinese use two brush strokes to write the word 'crisis.' One brush stroke stands for danger; the other for opportunity. In a crisis, be aware of the danger--but recognize the opportunity.
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...that's not practicality, that's full on Machiavelli. And if you keep going full on Machiavelli I'll keep calling you on it. Please stop.
 
PrimalShadow said:
Well, they stole/reverse-engineered our strategic tech that nobody else had, which can very reasonably be called an act of war.
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No it can't. It is not a valid casus belli, which is why Stability will drop if we attack them. If they got it by doing what the HK tried to do - trying to kidnap our smiths - then it would be, but they didn't, so it isn't. Killing and subjugating a whole bunch of people for peacefully developing iron is wrong.
 
[X] [Census] Streamline lower bureaucracy (+1 Passive Policy)
[X] [Crisis] Instruct and reprimand rule breakers (Sec Restore Order + Sec Proclaim Glory)
[X] [Diplo] Attempt to bribe the Lightning Wolves (Sec Trade Mission + Sec Targeted Salt Gift)
[X] [React] Stabilize the People (Main Improve Annual Festival)
 
Andres110 said:
No it can't. It is not a valid casus belli, which is why Stability will drop if we attack them. If they got it by doing what the HK tried to do - trying to kidnap our smiths - then it would be, but they didn't, so it isn't. Killing and subjugating a whole bunch of people for peacefully developing iron is wrong.
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Morally wrong? Yes.
Wrong, period? Well, it depends on how you reason about such things...
 
[X] [Census] Streamline lower bureaucracy (+1 Passive Policy)
[X] [Crisis] Consult the priests (+1 RA, +1 Stability, ???)
[X] [Diplo] Eliminate the Metal Workers before they can spread their knowledge (-1 Stability, Redeploy Red Banner, Greenshore converted to a colony)
[X] [React] Begin work on Iron Age Law Reform (-3 Mysticism, -1 Art per action, 3-4? actions required)
 
PrimalShadow said:
Morally wrong? Yes.
Wrong, period? Well, it depends on how you reason about such things...
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It's morally wrong and tactically wrong.

We can't kill all of them in one turn, not with just the Red Banner, so at least one person with the secrets will inevitably escape, and I'm sure that they could easily seek asylum in exchange for teaching a nation how to craft star-metal.
 
PrimalShadow said:
Morally wrong? Yes.
Wrong, period? Well, it depends on how you reason about such things...
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I'd say objectively wrong, because the biggest thing we can do to spread iron right now is to attack the Metalworkers and cause them to spawn refugees with iron tech in all directions.

Aside from you know, instead of being the longest standing trade partner of their nation we made a grudge
 
tryrar said:
.....let me rephrase that. We can't and we shouldn't go to war with everyone who discovers iron, as that will seriously destroy our values. You can't put the genie back into the bottle once it's released dude.
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We currently have no genies out of the bottle, saying that something is worth going to war for a civilisation is not the same as saying that civilisation will go to war for that thing every time it happens.
And I seriously think we should go to war over this issue and establish a precedent to be able to go to war over similar issues inot the future, our main advantage is tech superiority, and with our trait's is likely to remain as such, but only for as long as we can keep our enemies from copying us.

Besides, I think we'd probably end up at war with the new metal workers anyway as they come off of their coming iron driven conquest kick and find that all of the best trade has to go through us. Similarly I think that bribing the nomads just leads to them targeting the metal workers and our nearby rich colony rather than all of our marches.
our nice guy options here are creating predicable future problems that I don't see anyone planning around.
 
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[X] [Census] Streamline lower bureaucracy (+1 Passive Policy)

[X] [Crisis] Instruct and reprimand rule breakers (Sec Restore Order + Sec Proclaim Glory)

[X] [Diplo] Attempt to bribe the Lightning Wolves (Sec Trade Mission + Sec Targeted Salt Gift)
[X] [Diplo] Eliminate the Metal Workers before they can spread their knowledge (-1 Stability, Redeploy Red Banner, Greenshore converted to a colony)

[X] [React] Stabilize the People (Main Improve Annual Festival)​
 
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