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Paths of Civilization

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Hangwind said:
Yes. We need stronger nomads to drain some of our subordinate's Martial scores and make them dependent on us again.
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......this is the same reasoning that got you dogpiled for wanting to throw away our best trained troops(the Red Banner) just so we didn't have to pay for a second mercenary company i.e. a HORRIBLE idea. I mean, this is the worst idea you've had yet, and that's saying something.
 
thatguy said:
Again, iron needs to be viewed like nukes in terms of terrifying military tech. It's not a great comparison but lots of Historians have made it, because of how dangerous it is. (And also because they struggle to make good nuke comparisons)
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Controlling iron that way is also futile. Reminder that the Metalworkers are across the sea in mountains.
We won't get a short decisive victory in those conditions, meaning a war will cause metalworker refugees to go EVERYWHERE...thus propagating Iron even faster.
Hangwind said:
Yes. We need stronger nomads to drain some of our subordinate's Martial scores and make them dependent on us again.
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Iron wielding, Horse Riding nomads end civilizations. I'd very much prefer to delay THAT horror for as long as possible.
 
tryrar said:
[X] [Census] Free Administrative Tech upgrade
[X] [Crisis] Try to get to the bottom of things (???)
[X] [React] Stabilize the People (Main Improve Annual Festival)
[X] [Diplo] Attempt to bribe the Lightning Wolves (Sec Trade Mission + Sec Targeted Salt Gift)


I actually agree that going after the MW is actually a bad idea. I mean, we can't attack EVERYONE who figures out iron, can we?
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We can't, but establishing a causus beli would be really useful in delaying idea diffusion for as long as possible.
Remember that causus beli only are created by somthing traditionally being enough to go to war over. For that to happen someone needs to have gone to war over the issue in the past.
 
[X] [Census] Streamline lower bureaucracy (+1 Passive Policy)
[X] [Crisis] Instruct and reprimand rule breakers (Sec Restore Order + Sec Proclaim Glory)
[X] [Diplo] Attempt to bribe everyone (Main Salt Gift, untargeted)
[X] [React] Begin work on Iron Age Law Reform (-3 Mysticism, -1 Art per action, 3-4? actions required)
 
[] [Census] Chance to upgrade We Have Reserves
[X] [Census] Free Administrative Tech upgrade
[] [Census] Efficient land redistribution (Main DL, does not make management harder)
[X] [Census] Streamline lower bureaucracy (+1 Passive Policy)
A chance to upgrade a value doesn't sound that useful, especially for a value that is as weak as We Have Reserves (honestly, I think it is fair to call it one of our least useful values).
Main DL that doesn't make management harder saves us 2 progress on the lower-centralization increase, which means half of a centralization point taken from our range. Frankly, I value a Passive Policy more than that.



[X] [Crisis] Instruct and reprimand rule breakers (Sec Restore Order + Sec Proclaim Glory)
[X] [Crisis] Consult the priests (+1 RA, +1 Stability, ???)
[] [Crisis] Try to get to the bottom of things (???)
Anything but trying to get to the bottom of things. The last choice is clearly "protagonist bait"; it unlocks what is effectively a mandatory quest, which will draw resources and actions but potentially give goodies at the end. However, I think we have our plate full already, especially with the other revelations in this update. I want LESS things to deal with if we can.



[X] [Diplo] Attempt to bribe the Lightning Wolves (Sec Trade Mission + Sec Targeted Salt Gift)
[X] [Diplo] Attempt to bribe everyone (Main Salt Gift, untargeted)
[] [Diplo] Hit these nomads before they get going (Main War Mission + Redeploy Red Banner)
-[] [Diplo] Free Switch to Offence Policy
-[] [Diplo] Free Switch to Defence Policy
-[] [Diplo] Free Switch to Passive Defence Policy
[X] [Diplo] Eliminate the Metal Workers before they can spread their knowledge (-1 Stability, Redeploy Red Banner, Greenshore converted to a colony)
[] [Diplo] Hold tight (No action)

I am willing to commit to violence if it means our neighbors don't get iron.
I'm also willing to try diplomacy with anyone or everyone.
Prefer not to go to war now, though.



[X] [React] Begin work on Iron Age Law Reform (-3 Mysticism, -1 Art per action, 3-4? actions required)
[] [React] Build new aqueduct in Redshore (2*Sec Build Aqueduct)
[] [React] Improve saltern to take advantage of the new salt mine (Southshore Saltern expansion)
[] [React] Stabilize the People (Main Improve Annual Festival)
[] [React] Work on finishing new boat design (Main More Boats)
Main Annual Festival is rather wasteful; it is just 1 stability. I'd rather use it as a secondary, and indeed we can make time for it by starting the Law Reform megaproject now.
 
[X] [Census] Streamline lower bureaucracy (+1 Passive Policy)
[X] [Crisis] Instruct and reprimand rule breakers (Sec Restore Order + Sec Proclaim Glory)
[X] [Diplo] Attempt to bribe everyone (Main Salt Gift, untargeted)
[X] [React] Begin work on Iron Age Law Reform (-3 Mysticism, -1 Art per action, 3-4? actions required)
 
thatguy said:
We can't, but establishing a causus beli would be really useful in delaying idea diffusion for as long as possible.
Remember that causus beli only are created by somthing traditionally being enough to go to war over. For that to happen someone needs to have gone to war over the issue in the past.
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.....let me rephrase that. We can't and we shouldn't go to war with everyone who discovers iron, as that will seriously destroy our values. You can't put the genie back into the bottle once it's released dude.
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by PrimalShadow on Jul 22, 2017 at 10:59 PM, finished with 82197 posts and 48 votes.
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Raichu1972 said:
Nomads with Iron would absolutely stomp us flat.

A Nomadic Horde with Iron could easily destroy our civilization.

Please do not give the Nomads Iron.
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No, they really, really wouldn't. Seriously, Iron is not a god, it's an advantage. We have the population, we have the warriors, we have the technology. We would chew through any horde like taffy at this point. The danger comes when they have cavalry, and then it doesn't really matter whether they're using bronze or iron.
tryrar said:
......this is the same reasoning that got you dogpiled for wanting to throw away our best trained troops(the Red Banner) just so we didn't have to pay for a second mercenary company i.e. a HORRIBLE idea. I mean, this is the worst idea you've had yet, and that's saying something.
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Was there a point to this post beyond being insulting?


Seriously. Iron was always going to get out. The Nomads were always going to acquire it somehow. Nothing here is unexpected, we just didn't know when it was going to happen.
 
Ideally we won't play host to too many generations of nomad rulers, when they do come. It'd suck to end up getting a load of nomad values when we've put some much effort into cultivating the ones we have.
 
Hangwind said:
No, they really, really wouldn't. Seriously, Iron is not a god, it's an advantage. We have the population, we have the warriors, we have the technology. We would chew through any horde like taffy at this point. The danger comes when they have cavalry, and then it doesn't really matter whether they're using bronze or iron.

Was there a point to this post beyond being insulting?


Seriously. Iron was always going to get out. The Nomads were always going to acquire it somehow. Nothing here is unexpected, we just didn't know when it was going to happen.
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ook, when you keep coming up with these half-baked ideas it's hard to be objective about this. I mean, do you stop to think what it sounds like when you say you want nomads to get iron so they can stomp our March for us to reduce their martial, so we can integrate them without having to lift a finger to deal with our martial? That's almost cartoon level villainy there.

And yes, they're going to get iron eventually, there's no stopping that, but we can delay it. And that's good enough for now.
 
veekie said:
[] [Diplo] Attempt to bribe the Lightning Wolves (Sec Trade Mission + Sec Targeted Salt Gift)
-2 Wealth, additional effects depending on target, +1-2 Diplo
-5 Wealth, random amount of Diplomacy, Art, and Prestige generated (min. 1 of each) and the possibility of Mysticism generation
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This is incorrect. We get those stat boosts only for untargeted Salt Gifts. For Salt Gifts targeted towards nomads, the rewards are different. Remember the last time we did a Main Salt Gift to nomads: it was to the nomads who would become the Heaven's Hawks, and all that did was give us Prestige and friendship. If you want the stat increases, do an untargeted Salt Gift, not one targeted to nomads.
 
Hangwind said:
And ended up being the Chinese! Hell, we already elect them as kings if they're good enough, we really wouldn't mind as long as they didn't start by burning everything.
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We elected a Nomad who was familiar with our people and customs and explicitly was trying to understand us and how we govern.

A conquering nomad would do no such thing, and would rule however they pleased because they were strong and we were weak. They would try to attack all of our neighbors, and when we inevitably started to lose land, we would spiral into a failure cascade and fracture into a million pieces.
 
[X] [Diplo] Attempt to bribe everyone (Main Salt Gift, untargeted)
[X] [React] Stabilize the People (Main Improve Annual Festival)
[X] [Crisis] Try to get to the bottom of things (???)
[X] [Census] Free Administrative Tech upgrade
 
Andres110 said:
This is incorrect. We get those stat boosts only for untargeted Salt Gifts. For Salt Gifts targeted towards nomads, the rewards are different. Remember the last time we did a Main Salt Gift to nomads: it was to the nomads who would become the Heaven's Hawks, and all that did was give us Prestige and friendship. If you want the stat increases, do an untargeted Salt Gift, not one targeted to nomads.
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That's a good point I think we need the stats


[X] [Census] Chance to upgrade We Have Reserves
[X] [Crisis] Try to get to the bottom of things (???)
[X] [Diplo] Attempt to bribe everyone (Main Salt Gift, untargeted)
[X] [React] Begin work on Iron Age Law Reform (-3 Mysticism, -1 Art per action, 3-4? actions required)
 
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