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Paths of Civilization

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Timewinders said:
Like, I'm not the kind of person who advocates needless war. It's a waste of resources. But Trelli's position is so important that controlling the city would provide not only a ridiculous amount of wealth but also a stranglehold on vessels moving in and out of the black sea. A not!Rome, for example, would find it impossible to launch a naval attack on our nation without going through Trelli. We should use the slavery as an excuse to conquer it.
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We can easily culturally conquer them without resorting to war just by surrounding the Trelli on all side.
 
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Kiba said:
We can easily culturally conquer them without resorting to war just by surrounding the Trelli on all side.
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It won't be that easy. If we surround Trelli on all sides then Trelli will actually have more power over us. They won't need us to get supplies because they can get them by sea. Meanwhile they would still control the only access point from the Mediterranean to the Black Sea and could cut off our trade at any time. They will levy taxes on any of our trade ships that get through. They would have no reason to submit to us, and could end up a thorn in our side like Scotland was to England, opportunistically working with our enemies against us.
 
Timewinders said:
It won't be that easy. If we surround Trelli on all sides then Trelli will actually have more power over us. They won't need us to get supplies because they can get them by sea. Meanwhile they would still control the only access point from the Mediterranean to the Black Sea and could cut off our trade at any time. They will levy taxes on any of our trade ships that get through. They would have no reason to submit to us, and could end up a thorn in our side like Scotland was to England.
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We can just dig a canal.

After all, we would be on all sides, including the not-isthmus it rests on.
 
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Timewinders said:
It won't be that easy. If we surround Trelli on all sides then Trelli will actually have more power over us. They won't need us to get supplies because they can get them by sea. Meanwhile they would still control the only access point from the Mediterranean to the Black Sea and could cut off our trade at any time. They will levy taxes on any of our trade ships that get through. They would have no reason to submit to us, and could end up a thorn in our side like Scotland was to England, opportunistically working with our enemies against us.
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We will be like, their biggest trading partner and their closest neighbors, which will create a tremendous interdependence between us to the point that war is suicidal.
 
Timewinders said:
Fair point, that would work as well. But it would be much easier, quicker, and more profitable to just conquer it outright. I don't know when we will have the tech to build a canal like that.
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I agree that it would be quicker and easier to just conquer the city (though assimilation will be weird). But doing so without a real reason (aiding enemies or directly attacking us) would harm our nation's moral compass.

All we really need to do is keep land creeping toward them. They will either become culturally assimilated or feel threatened.
 
pbluekan said:
Cats? Clean? They might lick themselves but they still poop in your house and then walk all over every surface. Dogs aren't any better, in that department, but I prefer the 'happy love' you get from a dog.
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I mean, i did say it wasn't entirely objective, didn't i? :p Mostly its a matter how if something feels grimy or anything like that, if its got a smell, and then if i've got a negative association with it (so even if i double bag trash with good bags, its still conceptually trash).

Also while i agree that dogs are much more upfront about their affection, i always have to think to Aang (ex's cat) trying to cuddle in my lap when i kneeled near him to clean up some stuff, getting annoyed at that being impossible while i'm kneeling that way, and pointedly walking over to my bed and staring at me until i obeyed him and walked over so he could cuddle with me :p (Also, the kid i tutored that was amazed at how his cat was being more affectionate with me after just meeting me than he was with any of the family, because i've watched enough My Cat from Hell to know how to properly say hi to cats :p)

...Also, given our wealth, our love of nature, our beliefs on treating animals right, and our badge system, i am now picturing a cat decked out with the fanciest collar ever, since they keep winning awards for the most vermin handled each month :p
 
Kiba said:
We will be like, their biggest trading partner and their closest neighbors, which will create a tremendous interdependence between us to the point that war is suicidal.
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Yes, but think about how this works out in real life. Taiwan has an enormous dependence on China yet it still allies with America and threatens China's ability to defend its coast. When a small nation is next to a much larger one, the only way for them to keep their independence is to play a balancing act between the larger nation and its biggest rival. The Trelli won't risk going to war, but they will be a thorn in our side.
 
maximillian said:
It'll take large quantities to get utterly high. And the poppy, unless you establish country sized plantations, is produced in very low quantities, making it a high luxury good. Add transport costs and drug use becomes an indulgence only for the rich and powerful, as was the case in much of history. The whole idea of drugs running rampant is based on a false premise.
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This is basically why I wasn't concerned. Rampant opium abuse didn't happen till the eighteenth century or so AFAIK.
 
Hangwind said:
We need this. There's one thing that pine trees do better than any other tree in the world. Paper. Their wood pulp is highly valued for being good for paper. That would be huge. If we can get pine trees and go into a Golden Age on Diplomacy, Art, and Econ, we might get it.

It would be to our administration what Iron was to our army.
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> Paper
Huh, duly noted.
 
Timewinders said:
It won't be that easy. If we surround Trelli on all sides then Trelli will actually have more power over us. They won't need us to get supplies because they can get them by sea. Meanwhile they would still control the only access point from the Mediterranean to the Black Sea and could cut off our trade at any time. They will levy taxes on any of our trade ships that get through. They would have no reason to submit to us, and could end up a thorn in our side like Scotland was to England, opportunistically working with our enemies against us.
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Who says it will be easy? Doing the right thing isn't always easy.

This is why Phygrif, despite conquering and destroying Xoh, is considered controversial. It was a great victory, but the thread recognized the evil for what it is.
 
@Academia Nut

How lush are our forests? Is it more like the Knysna-Amatole or more like the dryer forests of Lebanon and Chile?

Both of these are Mediterranean climates, just slightly differing conditions.

Is cypress a thing?
 
Umi-san said:
@Abby Normal how to greet?
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There's probably more, but the bits i remember from when i first decided i liked cats and binge watched my cat from hell:
-Stay low to the ground, because it makes them feel safe; kneel or even lay down to get to their level if possible
-Don't stare at them too much, because that can make them feel targeted
-I think they're like dogs and perceive bared teeth as a threat, so don't smile open mouthed?
-as with most animals don't make sudden movements or loud sounds out of nowhere
-Slow blink at them; make eye contact and then very slowly blink, keeping your eyes closed a decent bit; this is basically saying "i trust you not to attack me while i can't see you", and if you ever see a cat do that to you, thats basically what its saying to you
-slowly present them with something that smells a lot like you and is long enough to be a bit aways from your hand; the tips of glasses if you have them are good are good, or i use my phone if i dont have sunglasses on. Put it a few inches/a foot away from their face and hold it still so they can approach and smell it
-Then, once they have your scent, if they're still there and not spooked or all fluffed up, hold out your hand the same way (i curl my fingers in a bit, but i'm not sure if thats actually a tip that helps, or jst my habit?), and let them sniff it and, if they so choose, pet themselves with it
-That "let them pet themselves" bit is important; that way they're in control, and you can't accidentally pet them somewhere they don't want to be petted
-Finally, once you have gained their trust, bribe the nice Trelli or Khemtri merchant that owns them with a fortune of salt, mercury, or sapphires in order to make them yours, and then find another merchant who has a cat, and repeat until you have enough cats to bring home have run out of non-cat valuables
-Repeat on every trading trip until the People can be wealthy in the only truly important trade good :V

Edit: But yeah, if you want an actual expert's advice, watch My Cat from Hell, because my advice is 90% stuff i learned from there, and may not be remembered perfectly

Edit 2: And in case anyone reading knows more than i, and i got something wrong, please correct me :)
 
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[X] [Alchemy] Full support (Main Study Alchemy, Stallions very pleased)
[X] [WC] Send many experts to work at the problem (-3 Art, -2 Centralization, +2 Wealth, +2 Wealth next turn)
[X] [React] Main New Trails
 
Symphony
Adhoc vote count started by McLuvin on Jul 11, 2017 at 6:00 PM, finished with 73506 posts and 94 votes.
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Abby Normal said:
There's probably more, but the bits i remember from when i first decided i liked cats and binge watched my cat from hell:
-Stay low to the ground, because it makes them feel safe; kneel or even lay down to get to their level if possible
-Don't stare at them too much, because that can make them feel targeted
-I think they're like dogs and perceive bared teeth as a threat, so don't smile open mouthed?
-as with most animals don't make sudden movements or loud sounds out of nowhere
-Slow blink at them; make eye contact and then very slowly blink, keeping your eyes closed a decent bit; this is basically saying "i trust you not to attack me while i can't see you", and if you ever see a cat do that to you, thats basically what its saying to you
-slowly present them with something that smells a lot like you and is long enough to be a bit aways from your hand; the tips of glasses if you have them are good are good, or i use my phone if i dont have sunglasses on. Put it a few inches/a foot away from their face and hold it still so they can approach and smell it
-Then, once they have your scent, if they're still there and not spooked or all fluffed up, hold out your hand the same way (i curl my fingers in a bit, but i'm not sure if thats actually a tip that helps, or jst my habit?), and let them sniff it and, if they so choose, pet themselves with it
-That "let them pet themselves" bit is important; that way they're in control, and you can't accidentally pet them somewhere they don't want to be petted
-Finally, once you have gained their trust, bribe the nice Trelli or Khemtri merchant that owns them with a fortune of salt, mercury, or sapphires in order to make them yours, and then find another merchant who has a cat, and repeat until you have enough cats to bring home have run out of non-cat valuables
-Repeat on every trading trip until the People can be wealthy in the only truly important trade good :V
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See cat->Grab cat->Pet cat->Lose cat->Heartbreak

See dog->Pet dog->Smush dog's face->Pet dog->Recieve Love
(Chihuahua and shitzu are pretty much exempt from this however)
 
Kiba said:
Who says it will be easy? Doing the right thing isn't always easy.

This is why Phygrif, despite conquering and destroying Xoh, is considered controversial. It was a great victory, but the thread recognized the evil for what it is.
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I'd argue that the canal idea could work, but the idea of just culturally assimilating Trelli is unrealistic considering the leverage they have over us and the threat we pose to them. As for "doing the right thing", I don't see how that plays a role in geopolitics. The ruler of a nation has a duty to ensure the safety of their people. By leaving Trelli alone we risk our long-term national security. This isn't like Phygrif, and it's not like the U.S. invading Iraq for dubious reasons. This is like the U.S. occupying the Panama Canal or China building artificial islands in the South China Sea. It's a hostile act, but it's one taken for defensive purposes. I'd be fine with making the Trelli into some kind of tributary state where we just use Terrify to keep them in line. We don't necessarily need to conquer them, but we do need to have control over the connection between the Black Sea and the Mediterranean Sea.
 
Timewinders said:
I'd argue that the canal idea could work, but the idea of just culturally assimilating Trelli is unrealistic considering the leverage they have over us and the threat we pose to them. As for "doing the right thing", I don't see how that plays a role in geopolitics. The ruler of a nation has a duty to ensure the safety of their people. By leaving Trelli alone we risk our long-term national security. This isn't like Phygrif, and it's not like the U.S. invading Iraq for dubious reasons. This is like the U.S. occupying the Panama Canal or China building artificial islands in the South China Sea. It's a hostile act, but it's one taken for defensive purposes. I'd be fine with making the Trelli into some kind of tributary state where we just use Terrify to keep them in line. We don't necessarily need to conquer them, but we do need to have control over the connection between the Black Sea and the Mediterranean Sea.
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What exactly are those threats?
 
Timewinders said:
and it's not like the U.S. invading Iraq for dubious reasons. This is like the U.S. occupying the Panama Canal or China building artificial islands in the South China Sea. It's a hostile act, but it's one taken for defensive purposes.
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Hahhahhahaha.

It is exactly like those. I'm not gonna get to far into politics here, but Iraq was about oil, and the Panama Canal was occupied for economic interests almost exclusively.

Trelli is the same situation, but what you're advocating doesn't make sense even when you consider your own post. When/if we surround the not!Black Sea, we will have immense military, sea, and trade power. You're telling me that the Trelli would anger us simply for trade leverage? How could they even back up that leverage?

We will literally be able to ask them to capitulate based on just the idea of our displeasure.

They hold leverage over us now, yes. But on any timescale where we could be even close enough to conquer them, they won't even consider telling us no.
 
Strange that our trade post made no noises lately. I would have thought they feel pressured from closeness to foreign states and lack nearby protection.
 
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