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Paths of Civilization

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VoidZero said:
Strange that our trade post made no noises lately. I would have thought they feel pressured from closeness to foreign states and lack nearby protection.
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Why? None of those states ever make any aggressive moves, and we also provide all of those people's tin. Or we used to.
 
pbluekan said:
Hahhahhahaha.

It is exactly like those. I'm not gonna get to far into politics here, but Iraq was about oil, and the Panama Canal was occupied for economic interests almost exclusively.

Trelli is the same situation, but what you're advocating doesn't make sense even when you consider your own post. When/if we surround the not!Black Sea, we will have immense military, sea, and trade power. You're telli me that the Trelli would anger us simply for trade leverage.

We will literally be able to ask them to capitulate based on just the idea of our displeasure.

They hold leverage over us now, yes. But on any timescale where we could be even close enough to conquer them, they won't even consider telling us no.
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I said it is exactly like the Panama Canal and the artificial islands, but it's not like Iraq (Iraq wasn't about oil, we have oil already and Saudi Arabia as our ally, Iraq was about control over the Middle East). As for expecting the Trelli to capitulate just because we have a stronger military, I wouldn't bank on it. Constantinople held out against invaders for centuries. Look up what it took for the Ottomans to conquer it, it wasn't easy even for them and they were far more powerful than us. They will be able to get supplies by sea while cutting off our own sea trade. They will presumably have very good fortifications so that even though we will outnumber them an assault will be difficult and we will be forced to conduct a siege along with a naval blockade, hoping that no other power wants to break the blockade and keep us from controlling the strait. Until we actually do conquer them, this threat will always be present. The only other solutions are to either build a canal or to stop expanding west and start expanding south so that we can access the Mediterranean directly without going through them.
 
Just whantend to add this before i go to sleep
Early Iron Bringers: Materials advancement always a possibility during Golden Ages, regardless of available excesses
GA + coal mine = good chance for steel
 
Kiba said:
What exactly are those threats?
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They can apply enormous tariffs, or even cut off the flow of trade into and out of our civilization. They can allow our (future) enemies to use the strait to invade our shores, and deny us the ability to counter-invade them. They can act as a financier, a supplier, intel source, pirate haven, rebellion inciter, or coalition builder.

pbluekan said:
Trelli is the same situation, but what you're advocating doesn't make sense even when you consider your own post. When/if we surround the not!Black Sea, we will have immense military, sea, and trade power. You're telling me that the Trelli would anger us simply for trade leverage? How could they even back up that leverage?
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Simply for trade leverage? Who's to say that they will always be content with only controlling the strait itself. In the future, they may have designs on Anatolia, or our Northern Coast. Not to mention that the control of trade is absolutely vital to their existence. If they think that we are nearly powerful enough that we can force their tariffs lower, or even bypass them entirely, they will have no choice but to act against us. Just like the Highland Kingdom and Thunder Speakers are currently our non-warring enemies because they feel that we have too much power in the Lowlands.

And how will the Trelli fight against a superior force? By allying with our other enemies, or by using their immense wealth to hire mercenaries. They may not look threatening now, but I wouldn't want to face a coalition of the Trelli, the Highland Kingdom, the Thunder Speakers, the Thunder Horse, the Swamp People, and any of the Steppe Nomads and Balkan/Hungarian tribes that they are able to hire.
 
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Thomasfoolery said:
Last we heard of the Metal Workers they'd collapsed into a bunch of different villages. So they're not really a huge threat to them.
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Only thing Greenshore would be worried about is nomads.

Timewinders said:
I said it is exactly like the Panama Canal and the artificial islands, but it's not like Iraq (Iraq wasn't about oil, we have oil already and Saudi Arabia as our ally, Iraq was about control over the Middle East). As for expecting the Trelli to capitulate just because we have a stronger military, I wouldn't bank on it. Constantinople held out against invaders for centuries. Look up what it took for the Ottomans to conquer it, it wasn't easy even for them and they were far more powerful than us. They will be able to get supplies by sea while cutting off our own sea trade. They will presumably have very good fortifications so that even though we will outnumber them an assault will be difficult and we will be forced to conduct a siege along with a naval blockade, hoping that no other power wants to break the blockade and keep us from controlling the strait. Until we actually do conquer them, this threat will always be present. The only other solutions are to either build a canal or to stop expanding west and start expanding south so that we can access the Mediterranean directly without going through them.
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Dude, their walls weren't designed for sieges and their navy aren't designed for huge naval battles.

And yes, we will have the resources to simply surround them and build a canal. It will take ten of thousand of people, but it can be done. This is far more resource intensive than conquering them, but it's the right thing to do and doesn't turn us more militaristic than we already are.

TheDanishLord said:
Just whantend to add this before i go to sleep
Early Iron Bringers: Materials advancement always a possibility during Golden Ages, regardless of available excesses
GA + coal mine = good chance for steel
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We don't need a coal mine for steel.
 
So we're all just sitting here, waiting to see what AN's clip of Alucard laughing means....

So seriously who else is scared shitless right now?
 
Rakuhn said:
They can apply enormous tariffs, or even cut off the flow of trade into and out of our civilization. They can allow our (future) enemies to use the strait to invade our shores, and deny us the ability to counter-invade them. They can act as a financier, a supplier, intel source, pirate haven, rebellion inciter, or coalition builder.

Simply for trade leverage? Who's to say that they will always be content with only controlling the strait itself. In the future, they may have designs on Anatolia, or our Northern Coast. Not to mention that the control of trade is absolutely vital to their existence. If they think that we are nearly powerful enough that we can force their tariffs lower, or even bypass them entirely, they will have no choice but to act against us. Just like the Highland Kingdom and Thunder Speakers are currently our non-warring enemies because they feel that we have too much power in the Lowlands.

And how will the Trelli fight against a superior force? By allying with our other enemies, or by using their immense wealth to hire mercenaries. They may not look threatening now, but I wouldn't want to face a coalition of the Trelli, the Highland Kingdom, the Thunder Speakers, the Thunder Horse, the Swamp People, and any of the Steppe Nomads and Balkan/Hungarian tribes that they are able to hire.
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There's no way they would have connection with the HK or the TS. Only possibility is the Swamp People.

While they can apply enormous tariffs or cut off flow of trade, it also hurts them.
 
pbluekan said:
See cat->Grab cat->Pet cat->Lose cat->Heartbreak

See dog->Pet dog->Smush dog's face->Pet dog->Receive Love
(Chihuahua and shitzu are pretty much exempt from this however)
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My experience goes:
See Cat -> respect Cat -> greet cat -> pet cat -> receive love -> be happy
Be in same room as dog -> receive slobber -> need to wash hands -> be sad

(Alternately: See best friend's Cat -> try to pet cat -> best friend's roonmate's dog tries to steal petting -> dont get to pet cat or receive love, and need to wash hands -> be sad :p)

McLuvin said:
So we're all just sitting here, waiting to see what AN's clip of Alucard laughing means....

So seriously who else is scared shitless right now?
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I'm still hopeful that the protagonist vampire laughing is a good thing for us protagonist vampires...though i suppose if it ends up being "we went on a walk and accidentally slaughtered more people" it might be a bit half and half...
 
Kiba said:
There's no way they would have connection with the HK or the TS. Only possibility is the Swamp People.
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Connection with the TS is highly unlikely. Connection with the HK is actually somewhat probable, as HK traders presumably can go through the rather large amount of unclaimed post-Hath land to them. Plus, the HK are straddling mountains that go past what we know, iirc. There is probably some kind of ocean/state on the other side that eventually touches the Trell.
 
McLuvin said:
Dude we are having system strain just administering a Kingdom the size of Romania, if we try to colonise America we will screw ourselves due to our inability to safely lose territory
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Our colonies are overseeing themselves rn. We just need to make sure to influence the americans' culture regularly and not artificially restrain their expansion capacity.
 
McLuvin said:
Dude we are having system strain just administering a Kingdom the size of Romania, if we try to colonise America we will screw ourselves due to our inability to safely lose territory
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Sure, I am not suggesting we do that, but getting to the America could very well speed up humanity. We are on a clock with regard to natural disasters. A volcano or a comet could hit us and there would be nothing we can do about it, because we don't have a space program.

I am disappointed that none of our actions did any boat building this turn. In my opinion, we should always do at least one new dock or more boats per turn.
 
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Kiba said:
I am hoping to get to America thousand of years early, even if they break away.
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Even if we can, i'm rather wary of that... If things are similar to the real world, we'd get to be responsible for super plagues destroying entire civs, which sounds like the kind of thing our civ would respond...poorly to, assuming we keep our general values that long (among other things, the possibility of managed ecosystems collapse occurring due to us spreading plague for once instead of spreading the solution, and our solutions being too late or not strong enough to save the natives, would probably lead to "must take actions to save as many people and systems as possible")

That said, i don't think AN would stick to the real world version of things. I personally am guessing that the Not!Americas have more surviving domesticatable animals than just the llama, and will have more advanced polities with enough large cities with close animals to have spawned plagues of their own, leading to a less total destruction during contact...and having similar effects on us or whichever civ makes contact, from their unique plagues that we're not used to.
 
Kiba said:
Sure, I am not suggesting we do that, but getting to the America could very well speed up humanity. We are on a clock with regard to natural disasters. A volcano or a comet could hit us and there would be nothing we can do about it, because we don't have a space program.

I am disappointed that none of our actions did any boat building this turn. In my opinion, we should always do at least one new dock or more boats per turn.
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You talk about comets as if they're a tragedy, not the opportunity our GSF megaproject makes them.

Man plants forest; comet kills all his neighbors; forest covers the land; man inherits the earth.
(Forest kills man; ants inherit the earth)
 
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Abby Normal said:
Even if we can, i'm rather wary of that... If things are similar to the real world, we'd get to be responsible for super plagues destroying entire civs, which sounds like the kind of thing our civ would respond...poorly to, assuming we keep our general values that long (among other things, the possibility of managed ecosystems collapse occurring due to us spreading plague for once instead of spreading the solution, and our solutions being too late or not strong enough to save the natives, would probably lead to "must take actions to save as many people and systems as possible")

That said, i don't think AN would stick to the real world version of things. I personally am guessing that the Not!Americas have more surviving domesticatable animals than just the llama, and will have more advanced polities with enough large cities with close animals to have spawned plagues of their own, leading to a less total destruction during contact...and having similar effects on us or whichever civ makes contact, from their unique plagues that we're not used to.
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It's necessary to connect to the America, even with the super plagues. There's no going around it killing everybody.
 
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