Of friends and forests
With the wealth on display, despite there being barriers of language, the Big Man still managed to get across that he wanted not just what was on offer in this expedition, or to get more of one particular thing, but he wanted regular trade with the nomads, and he wanted to stay not just for a few days to negotiate, but to rest their feet for a time as a proper feast was prepared to celebrate their arrival. For their part, as they saw the vast amounts of grain being removed from the storehouses within the heart of the primary cluster of houses, the nomads were so compelled to not fall behind that they selected a prime aurochs from their herd to slaughter to provide meat to the meal being made. There was suspicion all around, but there was beer and bread, meat and music, and dancing and revelry soon enough.

The morning after brought the yelling and shouting over what had been gotten up to the night before. While there was the usual round of admonitions and congratulations between parents about the decisions of their young adults had got up to during the night, there were a few cases of cross-tribal dalliances and it seemed that there was something of a problem. Through pantomime and a rapidly growing collection of words and grammar, the two chiefs managed to figure out what was the problem. For the people, young people having the occasional dalliance before marriage was only really a problem if there was a pregnancy or disease, and even then the individual families were expected to just sort it out. Food was grown and distributed collectively, and they always made sure that they had plenty in the storehouses for not just one year but as many years in advance as they could before the grain started to spoil. It was rare that the Big Man had to go to the people and tell them to actually try to avoid having kids for a year or two because there had been a bad harvest.

For the nomads, it was a bit of a bigger deal who was having sex with whom. It wasn't just a matter of political ties, which were obviously important, but having stable partnerships were significantly important for caring for children. Unmarried couples getting caught having sex tended to result in either an immediate marriage or mutual exile if the clan was clearly disapproving of the pairing. The Big Man considered this and then asked if they shouldn't just marry off the couples then. His counterpart frowned and pointed out that the situation was most prominently the young warriors of the people sleeping with the young women of his tribe, and that this was not a good trade.

The Big Man nodded, and then asked, "Right then, you lot who slept with their women, you're with them now."

It took a few moments for it to sink in for the nomads and the youngsters, although all of the elders in attendance were all nodding along sagely at the Big Man's words. Thinking for a moment while the nomads tried to figure out what to say, the Big Man then said, "Oh wait, that's more mouths for you to feed. Issue everyone heading out a supply of food."

It took quite some time for it to come out that yes, the Big Man was serious, and yes the rest of his people were backing them. There was then a bit of back and forth as they worked out a way to make it 'fair', the nomad chief soon realizing that this wasn't just a stunt or foolishness, but that the people took the settling of matters and injuries deadly serious, just that they applied to themselves. They wouldn't accept transgression from outsiders against them, but neither would they accept the opposite. Soon enough the trader found himself in the act of swapping out members of his own tribe just to make it so that the people staying or leaving at least had some reason to want to do so, such that he was not inflicting the injury of disruption of family unevenly to either side.

Of course, by his estimate, he came out far ahead in the deal, but for once he wondered if maybe he had found actual friends with whom he could safely and reliably trade with.

Seasons later, they returned with fresh loads of goods and slyly wondered if maybe there were anymore young warrior men who might want to sleep with their daughters, because spirits above could they fight! While there was a definite learning curve, the young men who had made fighting their profession were bloody good at it and had been the difference between survival and disaster more than once. A few of the men who had originally come with made to return to their original families with their new ones, but it remained a good trade all around. For their part, the returning men spoke of the wonders they had seen in the broader world.

And the Big Man smiled. Why ask for any one thing, when you could ask for friendship and have all the things?

Years went by and the mantle of Big Man passed along. The people were definitely having better relations with their neighbours, not just with the contact with the tribe of wanderers, but with the newly appointed heir, one Cwyrl, Son of Myta, Son of Ashryn. Born of his father's vitality and taught by his quick tongued mother, who had not spent her years idle but had bent her skills at persuasion and manipulation to climbing out of the social hole dug by her actions at getting back at Ashryn. With the assistance of his mother, he had been making headway in repairing relations with his grandfather's people, which neatly connected with another project initiated by the previous Big Man: to look into the forests atop the hill.

For generations the people had haphazardly tended to the forests, taking what they needed, which kept things mostly clear, but someone had noted that there seemed to be fewer trees. Since growing plants was what they did best, the people had gone at it with gusto... only to realize that trees were harder to tend to than grain. Still, they persisted, and as Myta and Cwyrl went about their business of doing business, they brought in people of the forests to assist. There were troubles and quarrels, but the quick tongued mother and son duo smoothed things over. Trees needed different things than grains, and just planting them in rows and expecting a forest by the next season was distinctly unrealistic.

However, in the efforts to replant areas where they had cut faster than the forest could regrow, and the people noticed something. Generations of working with irrigation in the hills and the flooding season in the valley had given them all a keen eye and awareness of how water flowed and could cut the land. They'd never really looked before, but in seeing bare areas where they were trying to plant get washed away in the spring rains while the older forest had the roots cling to the soil, their eyes lit up in enlightenment. Now that they were paying attention, they could also see how the forest soil was rich, where lowering down on the hills where they had cut away trees and bushes for fields they had to abandon the farms every few years because the soil became thin without the floodwaters of the river.

The trees were clearly important, the people just hadn't looked at what they might be doing. But they knew soil and water and they needed this now. They talked with the people of the forest who their heir, and then actual Big Man, brought to look over things, and they started to try things. Selective burning seemed to help, and it was distinctly noted that the black ash seemed to make the soil universally better, and staking down mats of reeds and fibres within the mud seemed to reduce the way the rains could cut it away and remove the tree seeds they tried to grow. Which direction they grew trees in was also clearly important, and they paid attention to how the trees could be aligned to best slow the water on the hills instead of creating channels... or they could deliberately create channels to collect water for their own uses.

It was costly, oh how it was costly to just feed people to do things that didn't directly result in grain, but as Cwryl's hair grew grey and he watched his grandchildren grow up, he knew that he was getting results... and the revenge his mother had impressed upon him to take. Crow had one last trick to play, one last laugh to caw.

Friendship with the traders had soon enough resulted in more directed marriages, political ties, and he had encouraged and orchestrated them. He had also encouraged such ties with the shattered remnants of his grandfather's people and the other victims of his father's rampage, and as it turned out, the men of the forests who hunted - and thus killed - to keep their families alive made for good warriors with just a bit of retraining. Bit by bit he was making the warriors of the families of old the servants of the traders even as he made his people the well fed warriors of the farmers. Bit by bit, piece by piece he was - and even as time closed in on him, largely had - replaced the lineages of chiefs with ones more preferable to him and his mother's ghost.

As he considered all of this, he also considered what to do with the twilight of his years. His counterpart among the traders - although he idly wondered how much longer that would last as already tribe meet ups would include their tribal head and clan leaders whenever possible and it was probably only a matter of time before the slow merger finished - had been tell him stories of the greater world: some troubling, some wondrous. There were other great peoples out there, peers to this valley in terms of significance. Amazing tales were told by the traders and the people who went with them, and he wondered if perhaps he should make a great journey to form the finale of a life well lived.

Perhaps most wondrous of all was the stories of a settlement an enormous distance away, one where the people oversaw a fantastical wonder, a place where spirits congregated and one felt intensely close to their realm. Tales told of travellers who would walk a full year to go to this place and make offerings to the guardians of the place, that they might experience the wonder themselves. Few of the people of the valley had gone, and fewer still had returned, but those who had could speak only of how their fondest wish was to have the chance to return, and how they barely had the words to describe the experience. Such an experience was one Cwryl was quite interested in.

Somewhat more practically, there were tales of a settlement in a place where all rivers emptied into a body of water that stretched across the horizon. While such a sight was assuredly a wonder to see, more important than that was the fact that the settlement had collected wonders and luxuries from the waters, and ties of trade with them could bring great wealth to the peoples. If he walked there with his counterpart, bearing gifts from the valley and things gained through the trade of their grain elsewhere, that greatly increased the chance of a lasting deal being established between them.

More troublingly, the traders were reporting that there was a group of people from somewhat distant lowlands who were also farmers, but who seemed to be more interested in attacking their neighbours than tending the land. While conflict happened and that was why warriors were needed and men needed to know how to fight, this other group seemed to revel in it. Their raids were disrupting trade, either by creating dangerous patches that the traders decided to just go around to minimize the chances of being attacked, or by wrecking previously established deals by killing the people the deals were made with or disrupting whatever activity was going on. Finding out more about these aggressive people first hand could be of significant benefit to the peoples relying upon Cwryl, especially if it could be determined if they were an actual threat.

Finally, on the list of places to go and things to see, there were dreadful campfire stories of an entrance to the Underworld up in taller hills, a place where smoke poured from the ground and the wails and groans of the dead could be heard echoing from deep within. While an ominous place, a dreadful place, there were stories... stories of how if the living walked in, while they might not walk out again, they could also deliver a petition to the spirits directly instead of having to die first... if their constitution and bravery held. A final way to serve the peoples for an old man, to walk headlong into death instead of waiting for it to claim him, and to make a request on behalf of his family and the families he protected and supported.

And then, finally, he could just spend his final days as he had spent his prior days, in work towards seeing the projects of his people fulfilled. There was always more to do for a Big Man like him, even if he had already shifted much of his duties over to the heir due to age's toll on his body. A journey might bring great benefit to the people, but staying here would definitely bring some benefit.

Decisions, decisions...

The final act of Cwryl, Grandson of the Crow, Son of Myta and Ashryn, was...
[] Pilgrimage to the site of wonder
[] Trade expedition to the village on the sea
[] Investigation of the lowland tribes
[] Journey into the Underworld
[] Keep working at home

The next great Big Man was chosen for...
[] Administration
[] Diplomacy
[] War
 
The dusty old crow is a shrewd one indeed.

[x] Investigation of the lowland tribes

Be forewarned and forearmed.

[x] Administration

Stewardship!
 
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[X] Trade expedition to the village on the sea
[X] War

Our economy has gone down to 3 and I foresee an actual war coming along...
 
[] Journey into the Underworld
That sounds like a volcano...

[X] Investigation of the lowland tribes

Always stay up to date on potential enemies.

[X] Administration

Boost centralization. Also would help ensure surplus is not wasted so we can get back to Econ 5 again. We need that if we want to have enough food to allow full time warriors.
 
We gained a ton of stuff this turn. Diplomacy, Culture and a bunch of technologies. Meanwhile all we lost was a couple of points of Economy and Centralisation.
 
So there was a sudden decrease in Monarchs in the last few centuries. There are still 43 countries ruled by a Monarch currently. Monarchy is the best government type we have that can scale upwards without issue.
a) I mentioned this as an issue. Counterpoint any elected leader isn't trained as extensively in an elective democracy.
b) Only applies at the height of power and to any noble class
c) Not a bad thing depending on your point of view (this gets into RL political debate)
d) There have been far more Competent than Incompetent rulers in history. Simply because an incompetent ruler would have their kingdom usurped by the competent neighbours.

a) Yeah, that's basically what I said. My argument was that i) the fact that you can have shitty people managing their education is a greater con, and ii) that while you will have an education formally targeted at a young leader, that doesn't necessarily mean they will be a better one. A prince's education is what, languages, law, international relations, economic principles, and some military? Most nobles and merchants educate their heirs on the first four. Most educate their male non-heirs on military matters, languages, and some econ. Daughters on languages, international relations, possibly econ depending on the culture. Basically, when our culture has expanded enough that monarchy's a benefit we'd be rich enough to have a pool of only slightly less prepared people, who would have smarter, better members among them simply because of the bell curve.
b) Yeah, genetic diseases generally only start occurring after inbreeding. It's possible that whatever line becomes the monarch family starts w/ a flaw tho.
c) I believe firmly that the power belongs to the people, as does the land, resources, etc. I'll admit that this is probably biasing me, but stand by it.
d) So basically you're down for us being taken over by our more competent neighbors when the time comes, as it inevitably will? I'll admit that the combo of a council and a hopefully decent education means that most monarchs are at least slightly competent, though. On the other hand, the bad ones fuck up hard enough to make it not worthwhile. I'd bring up the Roman empire but I don't think they count as a monarchy.

How does communal mean the land doesn't belong to the Monarch, even right now? The Chief is in charge of the people and this plot of land. The Chief of Chiefs is in charge of the Chiefs. The King is in charge of the Chief of Chiefs.
We have claimed land and every person within that land gets a fair share, and everyone outside it cannot come in to till the land without joining the community.
All I'm changing is from Elective to Absolute Cognatic Primogeniture (or perhaps Ultimogeniture, where the youngest inherits)

I am totally looking for a Noble class. We need one. Noble classes lead to scientific advancements and Culture, and we need recordkeeping ASAP.

I meant modern day us, not in-game us. The western world is primarily greek-derived philosophy.
The chief is in charge of the people but in no way in charge of the land, which belongs to the people. If you were a team leader, would all of your subordinates possessions be yours? No.


All you're changing is from a meritocratic process to a non-meritocratic one.

Wealth and leisure lead to scientific advancements, as do appropriate protections of those advancements and a satisfactory educational system targeted at science rather than theology and politics. All of these can come through a) merchant houses and guilds or b) a bureaucratic process rather than a noble class w/ wealth based on land.

Guilds, merchants, and storehouses = financial recordkeeping. Churches = genealogical records of their parish (i.e. who married whom, x of z y parents was baptized). Churches = culture (admittedly religious) as do secular things like fairs, festivals, and other non-noble life. Imo, most stories told or recorded by nobles were drawn from peasants. Also, speaking of culture, I don't want to do a regency or ren-faire-type period.

*shrug* It's true that we are based on grecco-roman democracy/republics. It's also what's responsible for most of the civil rights movements.
 
We gained a ton of stuff this turn. Diplomacy, Culture and a bunch of technologies. Meanwhile all we lost was a couple of points of Economy and Centralisation.

Admittedly a large number of these you already had and I just hadn't formally written them down, but yeah, you gained a shitload of stuff from partial integration with the traders, at the cost of creating a partial branch of people that the Big Man doesn't have direct control over, and massive subsidization of various projects that eats into grain surpluses.

Also, sparring Myta last turn meant that picking Friendship! this turn was massively boosted both by the fact that her plot was synergistic with bringing them in closer, and because earning Eye for an Eye massively increased trade appeal because traders now have a much higher degree of trust that they won't get screwed over by the people they are trading with, and can even be compensated damages... although they do also have to keep an eye on their herds around other people's crops because they have to compensate for damage.

And our warrior class was subverted by that ungrateful fuck and his spiteful mother

Two generations from now, their "revenge" means what to the people? They've still got warriors looking over them, just with a somewhat different ancestry than if the two of them hadn't launched their plot.
 
All in all, Crwyl was a good one. He certainly left a better legacy than Ashryn.
 
Two generations from now, their "revenge" means what to the people? They've still got warriors looking over them, just with a somewhat different ancestry than if the two of them hadn't launched their plot.
It's the morals of the matter, they start attacking us, we destroy them for it, they then cause massive civil strife, we forgive them for it, so then they subvert our people's ruling and warrior classes...
We have the trait eye for an eye but where the bloody justice in that series of event?
We spare her ungrateful life so she chooses the vicious raiders who kidnapped and raped her mother....
Sooooo not a bitch.
 
It's the morals of the matter, they start attacking us, we destroy them for it, they then cause massive civil strife, we forgive them for it, so then they subvert our people's ruling and warrior classes...
We have the trait eye for an eye but where the bloody justice in that series of event?
We spare her ungrateful life so she chooses the vicious raiders who kidnapped and raped her mother....
Sooooo not a bitch.

Chances are they married into the tribe or will eventually. So its less subverted and more than they now share ancestry with the scattered tribe. They wouldn't be part of the clan if they did not have some our blood inside of the warriors. Plus its not like they have any different cultures or anything.
 
It's the morals of the matter, they start attacking us, we destroy them for it, they then cause massive civil strife, we forgive them for it, so then they subvert our people's ruling and warrior classes...
We have the trait eye for an eye but where the bloody justice in that series of event?
We spare her ungrateful life so she chooses the vicious raiders who kidnapped and raped her mother....
Sooooo not a bitch.
But it's still nothing. The unification was total and absolute. For the dead old woman who planned it, and the nearly dead but still greatly invested Big Man who still loves his tribe, it's just an irony that they can share privately against the long dead prideful ass that got voted in a few updates ago.
 
All in all, Crwyl was a good one. He certainly left a better legacy than Ashryn.
Ashryn only became the monster he did due to Crow and Crwyl's mother.

Imagine you love a girl, this beautiful girl, and it's your job to protect her. One day you come home from fighting to protect your peaceful people only to find that your nemisis has stolen this girl and is raping her.

No matter how hard you try you cannot find him, cannot get your revenge, cannot save your love.

One day you discover she is dead, in childbirth to your enemies child.

So you hunt harder, you become more ferocious, however every time you come close to gaining vengeance, your enemy sacrifices his own men so he can escape, like some Saturday afternoon villain, except he's a rapist, murderer and thief attacking your peaceful people.

Then one day you get him. You kill him. Vengeance is yours. Except it's empty, it's not done anything for your hate, or brought back your love. Until you see her daughter, until you see a new chance at life.

She is wise and smart, she gives you advice as you age, as the toll brought on by your obsession with vengeance grows. Before you know it, you're a monster, but you still want to help make your people great, you still do great deeds.

As you die by your own friends and subordinates, how could you possibly know that your wife and son would invite the same killers, thieves and rapists into your tribe, that they would put these people into positions of leadership, make them into the warriors who trained and lived the easier lives, with the most beautiful women, most power and greatest respect.

You didn't, you couldn't.
In the end the only thing you're guilty of is loving a beautiful girl.
 
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[X] Investigation of the lowland tribes
[X] Administration

It's the morals of the matter, they start attacking us, we destroy them for it, they then cause massive civil strife, we forgive them for it, so then they subvert our people's ruling and warrior classes...
It will only matter if they stay separate. The justice is that they're getting revenge for our excess retribution. Admittedly breaking their promise to not fuck us over, but in a way that's ultimately positive: it makes their scattered tribe not be a future threat (from the outside) by integrating them within. Remember that she's getting revenge on the man who kidnapped and raped her as well as killed all of her family.

Edit:
Also, stealing wives from other families was a common and (genetically) beneficial act. Usually they were kidnapped and then courted, not just outright raped. Doing so to someone who you're going to marry is a really dumb idea, and would be reacted to by all the other people (i.e. women, i.e. your mother) in your thin-walled village.

Changed vote to Trade + Administration and then back again. Trade seems better suited for growth, and maybe getting our administrative power away from memory - as maybe the reeds growing in the delta could be made into paper. However, PowerofMind's review of our options has persuaded me that investigating is better.
 
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The final act of Cwryl, Grandson of the Crow, Son of Myta and Ashryn, was...
[] Pilgrimage to the site of wonder (It's risky, but at the same time potentially massively empowering. If the Big Man returns, he could introduce massively useful construction techniques to the people)
[] Trade expedition to the village on the sea (Sea traders are incredibly useful in this era; they trade with more people in a year than your average nomad tribe will meet in a generation. At the same time... extreme career traders like that tend to develop some rather... shifty, business practices that we'd no doubt take issue with...)
[] Investigation of the lowland tribes (Heading off the problem before it becomes a crisis. It's tempting just for the sake of having fewer troubles, but no civilization can just avoid the tests of the crucible forever)
[] Journey into the Underworld (A highly spiritual event, or possibly an introduction of unique materials to the tribe. It could be amazing, and lend a massive boost to the efforts of the people, but if something goes wrong it could obliterate morale under the threat of a 'curse')
[] Keep working at home (Helps all around, but clearly not as much as it could...)

The next great Big Man was chosen for...
[] Administration (Always liked me a good administration)
[] Diplomacy (We've actually got some of that now...)
[] War (We might need it)

[X] Investigation of the lowland tribes
[X] Administration

I can't help myself. I want to come down early on the lowlanders so I can afford a nice, lazy administrator later!

You didn't, you couldn't.
In the end the only thing your guilty of is loving a beautiful girl.
The siege and annihilation of Troy was a misunderstood love story.

Being stupid because you don't use your one-pound brain and settle on the three-ounce one isn't a justification or excuse, it's just embarrassing, and should the victims of your - quite literally - small-minded behavior cleverly snub you long after your death, with little consequence to any of what was once yours, I say bully for them; they're both better and smarter people than you.
 
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