Guys, 'Judeo-Christian-Islam sphere' is called the Abrahamic Religions (because each of the 3 groups venerated Abraham, he was basically the last common ancestor, with his exiled slave-kid being important to Islam unlike the Jewish religion and in turn Christianity).

At this time Religions was basically the Culture. it was a way to bind several Tribes together without having a Big Man, while also having record-keeping and laws.
I think it would be really interesting if we abandoned it and never developed much of a spiritual caste. It is rather rare, but we have the proto-kingdom aspects enough, if we add a Monarchy rather than Elective we could begin Family recordkeeping, and from there records of many other things.
 
[X] We want your friendship!
[X] Manage Forests

Eye for eye is gonna mean trouble if we don't have some diplomacy skills to smooth over quarrels. Plus we should move away from the "Baby eaters" tag.
 
Guys, 'Judeo-Christian-Islam sphere' is called the Abrahamic Religions (because each of the 3 groups venerated Abraham, he was basically the last common ancestor, with his exiled slave-kid being important to Islam unlike the Jewish religion and in turn Christianity).

At this time Religions was basically the Culture. it was a way to bind several Tribes together without having a Big Man, while also having record-keeping and laws.
I think it would be really interesting if we abandoned it and never developed much of a spiritual caste. It is rather rare, but we have the proto-kingdom aspects enough, if we add a Monarchy rather than Elective we could begin Family recordkeeping, and from there records of many other things.
The rarity is mostly that it's very difficult to resist the propagation of another belief system without competing belief systems to explain all the inexplicable things(plus of course, the sheer loss of institutional knowledge until Writing comes up, and religion is one of the things which help it's development[but we have the beginnings of the other, a shitload of goods/food which requires record keeping more advanced than memorization]).

Though to be fair up until Monotheism(which hardens cultural stability, but boosts religious conflict), it's hard for cultures to resist religious penetration and syncreticism even if they have a belief system already.
 
We do have a religion, it seems primarily Animism or similar to Japanese Kami.
I'm resisting a Priest caste being set up, maintain our Animist-Paganism and maybe take a rationalism or skeptic decision-point or two if they pop up.

Then again, rationalism points to Deities until I think blacksmithing -ish?
 
and maybe take a rationalism or skeptic decision-point or two if they pop up.

Then again, rationalism points to Deities until I think blacksmithing -ish?
Longer, probably. You need a pretty strong and radical philosophical tradition to go "hey, you ever wonder if the last thousand years of our understanding of the world was wrong on a fundamental level?"

Plus, you need a pretty serious amount of understanding of underlying concepts, and not just practical applications, before you can start offering a better and more solid theory than "a god did it".
 
Longer, probably. You need a pretty strong and radical philosophical tradition to go "hey, you ever wonder if the last thousand years of our understanding of the world was wrong on a fundamental level?"

Plus, you need a pretty serious amount of understanding of underlying concepts, and not just practical applications, before you can start offering a better and more solid theory than "a god did it".

Not really, assuming first principles, blacksmithing is roughly where Deities stop being default. Everything after that is just-as-plausible assuming no cultural bias towards a predetermined answer.
And the Greeks were asking that question all day every day, Plato is a good example of that with his Cave.

It's only when you begin to shape basic elements of reality and understand how those things could be shaped independent of a mind do you suspect there may not be a great being micromanaging everything.
 
Not really, assuming first principles, blacksmithing is roughly where Deities stop being default. Everything after that is just-as-plausible assuming no cultural bias towards a predetermined answer.
And the Greeks were asking that question all day every day, Plato is a good example of that with his Cave.

It's only when you begin to shape basic elements of reality and understand how those things could be shaped independent of a mind do you suspect there may not be a great being micromanaging everything.
You're missing a few key prerequisites:
-You need people wealthy enough to spend a great deal of time doing nothing productive and just thinking. This was based off a priest caste, there's no market for philosophers, astrologers and alchemists until after.
-You need mathematics and philosophy. Most of these came from the priesthood in an attempt to further their understanding of gods and spirits, but otherwise you're down to a particularly rich, large and idle noble caste(keeping in mind that they have administrative work until it bloats).
-Many of the fine tool skills and techniques leading up to metalworking arose from religious artwork. You can also get here via displays of wealth by the fabulously rich.

You DO realize that blacksmithing was one of the most mystically heavy professions right? It had a ridiculous amount of ritual behavior and superstitions behind it, because it's very much later on that metallurgy developed well enough that people understood the principles of metal brittleness and hardness(which you still see in the modern day with the slave quenching and folded a thousand times myths). All kinds of ingredients and superstitions arose due to the lack of ability to understand what controls it, and the effects of ambient temperatures or variations in material. It's right next to sailors and warriors for superstitious behavior.
 
I wonder how the settled tribe from the beginning is doing. Would be interesting to see what happens when we meet them again
 
If you have no idea that this is one of the reasons why you get a good sword or a bad one, its pretty easy to get superstitious.

Also...



But yeah, you need an intellectual caste to be able to open up philosophy, which requires a large number of precedents. Math can come from administrative purposes, but there's a lot of other things that are going to be tied up in mysticism first.
 
If you have no idea that this is one of the reasons why you get a good sword or a bad one, its pretty easy to get superstitious.
Hell, even if you DID know, applying that knowledge to produce consistent hardness gradients at exactly the right places to be effective is...pretty near magic. Especially with inconsistent materials, I mean, modern times, we say oil for quenching, we have a consistent oil temperature to quench it with...and then you consider people doing olive oil, beeswax, lard, etc in all kinds of variation trying to just get their metal to cool at the right speed....then you factor in the entire process repeating while you build the tools to make the tools

Modern equivalent, see debugging/hacking, where one tiny change causes rippling effects and often the designer doesn't know what the hell either.
 
We do have a religion, it seems primarily Animism or similar to Japanese Kami.
I'm resisting a Priest caste being set up, maintain our Animist-Paganism and maybe take a rationalism or skeptic decision-point or two if they pop up.

Then again, rationalism points to Deities until I think blacksmithing -ish?
Why do you assume priesthood ends animism -note that paganism isn't a religion, just a derogatory word for a category of them, to be super PC- much less animism in the form of Japanese Kami, which are basically like "Here's an infinity of gods, some of them are more important but who cares"?

It's explicit that it would be a place dedicated to the spirits and ancestors, too.

Edit:
Also, I find this interesting:
I think it would be really interesting if we abandoned it and never developed much of a spiritual caste. It is rather rare, but we have the proto-kingdom aspects enough, if we add a Monarchy rather than Elective we could begin Family recordkeeping, and from there records of many other things.

It would maybe be cool to see how it is to be a culture w/o spiritual aspects, though doing so would likely cut off a lot of beautiful writing.
However, I do not want a monarchy. I would rather have us become a theocracy than go down that boring and unprofitable path. Maybe we can do it through intense bureaucracy, or landmanagement? I.e., keeping records of the forest and fields or whatever and slowly expanding that. It probably wouldn't develop art though.
 
Last edited:
How is Monarchy boring and unprofitable?

Monarchy is a type of government that can survive from Prehistory into the Space stage. It may not be very popular right now with our greek-style democracy, but trained since birth to rule is a VERY good method of producing good leaders. Not a perfect method, especially the Eldest method compared to a family-elected (which is the median between democracy and eldest child) can lead to bad kids, either through genetic lottery or the parents not having the experience to be good parents on the first try.
It trades Adaptability for Competence and Stability.
 
How is Monarchy boring and unprofitable?

Monarchy is a type of government that can survive from Prehistory into the Space stage. It may not be very popular right now with our greek-style democracy, but trained since birth to rule is a VERY good method of producing good leaders. Not a perfect method, especially the Eldest method compared to a family-elected (which is the median between democracy and eldest child) can lead to bad kids, either through genetic lottery or the parents not having the experience to be good parents on the first try.
It trades Adaptability for Competence and Stability.
Boring because it's the standard approach a lot of kingdoms use; you're already advocating for not having a spiritual caste because it's rarer. It's unprofitable because the vast majority of current polities don't do a monarchy, or do a nominal one, in the case of Britain, Japan, and some of the northern ones. I'll admit that being trained to be a leader is an okay method if it goes right, but a) a lack of decent parents b) genetic issues c) estranging power from the people and d) making people just assume they deserve the position has historically led to markedly incompetent rulers. In other words, it trades Adaptability for an extremely iffy Competence and Stability, or possibly even Adaptability and Competence for Predictability, in the sense that everyone can thus focus on a family, who may or may not actually be suitable.

Additionally, a monarchy goes against our commune-leaning ways and our history of overly prideful leaders. Most monarchies based their rule on a claim to a) all the land within their territory - which explicitly goes against our "everyone works the land and gets a share" - or b) divine right, which goes against our lack of religion. These monarchies also usually fell once currency became detached from land ownership. I.e., when the economy shifted away from a rentee setup where nobles fought with each other over how much land they could have others work for them. You maybe aren't looking for a noble class, but having a monarchy/special family would most likely lead to one regardless, as families track their relation to the monarchy, and hierarch themselves accordingly. Which results in the main family considering themselves as deserving of this position, and whatever else they want.

"Greek style" democracy - or any of the number of other methods of electing a leader - mean that you elect someone based on merit, selecting from a much wider pool of candidates. Yes, the resources used to train the candidates would be spread out, but any family or person still aiming for the position would be training themselves appropriately regardless. (With notable benefits as the education required becomes more widespread, tutoring methods become better refined through practice and competition, etc.) There furthermore would be higher chances to find a notably excellent person, who has the higher drive necessary to rise to the occasion. And, finally, our Big Man-in-waiting process would work to ensure that they learn what they need to be a good leader.

Also, do we even use greek style democracy? What the hell are we?
 
Since nobody has argued that we can't get animal husbandry later on from the trader, I'm gonna change to friendship since it has so many long term benefits that include so many different things.

[X] We want your friendship!
[X] Manage Forests
 
Boring because it's the standard approach a lot of kingdoms use; you're already advocating for not having a spiritual caste because it's rarer. It's unprofitable because the vast majority of current polities don't do a monarchy, or do a nominal one, in the case of Britain, Japan, and some of the northern ones. I'll admit that being trained to be a leader is an okay method if it goes right, but a) a lack of decent parents b) genetic issues c) estranging power from the people and d) making people just assume they deserve the position has historically led to markedly incompetent rulers. In other words, it trades Adaptability for an extremely iffy Competence and Stability, or possibly even Adaptability and Competence for Predictability, in the sense that everyone can thus focus on a family, who may or may not actually be suitable.

Additionally, a monarchy goes against our commune-leaning ways and our history of overly prideful leaders. Most monarchies based their rule on a claim to a) all the land within their territory - which explicitly goes against our "everyone works the land and gets a share" - or b) divine right, which goes against our lack of religion. These monarchies also usually fell once currency became detached from land ownership. I.e., when the economy shifted away from a rentee setup where nobles fought with each other over how much land they could have others work for them. You maybe aren't looking for a noble class, but having a monarchy/special family would most likely lead to one regardless, as families track their relation to the monarchy, and hierarch themselves accordingly. Which results in the main family considering themselves as deserving of this position, and whatever else they want.

"Greek style" democracy - or any of the number of other methods of electing a leader - mean that you elect someone based on merit, selecting from a much wider pool of candidates. Yes, the resources used to train the candidates would be spread out, but any family or person still aiming for the position would be training themselves appropriately regardless. (With notable benefits as the education required becomes more widespread, tutoring methods become better refined through practice and competition, etc.) There furthermore would be higher chances to find a notably excellent person, who has the higher drive necessary to rise to the occasion. And, finally, our Big Man-in-waiting process would work to ensure that they learn what they need to be a good leader.

Also, do we even use greek style democracy? What the hell are we?

So there was a sudden decrease in Monarchs in the last few centuries. There are still 43 countries ruled by a Monarch currently. Monarchy is the best government type we have that can scale upwards without issue.
a) I mentioned this as an issue. Counterpoint any elected leader isn't trained as extensively in an elective democracy.
b) Only applies at the height of power and to any noble class
c) Not a bad thing depending on your point of view (this gets into RL political debate)
d) There have been far more Competent than Incompetent rulers in history. Simply because an incompetent ruler would have their kingdom usurped by the competent neighbours.

How does communal mean the land doesn't belong to the Monarch, even right now? The Chief is in charge of the people and this plot of land. The Chief of Chiefs is in charge of the Chiefs. The King is in charge of the Chief of Chiefs.
We have claimed land and every person within that land gets a fair share, and everyone outside it cannot come in to till the land without joining the community.
All I'm changing is from Elective to Absolute Cognatic Primogeniture (or perhaps Ultimogeniture, where the youngest inherits)

I am totally looking for a Noble class. We need one. Noble classes lead to scientific advancements and Culture, and we need recordkeeping ASAP.

I meant modern day us, not in-game us. The western world is primarily greek-derived philosophy.
 
Back
Top