I was thinking that kicking would work narratively, but we'll have to see on the update. It's nice because it gets 2 progress done and has a 44% chance of getting us +1 stability (only works if we're at 0 though)
You think a [Main] Snails won't be enough to dominate the market? We do have competition so we'll have to push it a bit more to keep the dominate, but I'm pretty sure we've got a dominating position with ~1/2 the investment of Saltern.


Establish Trading Post is a pretty nice idea. I'll have to think on it some more but I'd definitely be willing to go for it if we're at non-negative stability.
When AN talked about dye + saltern he used the word "just" in relation to getting the saltern in only 3 actions/6 econ. This seemed to me to imply that the saltern would be easier to acquire, comparatively. I'd note that it's something we have literally 0 competitors in.

Can RoO be used at 0 if we're planning an action that would take it down 1? It can't be used at 0.

I've been meaning to ask what is your avatar Umi? It's some kind of garden design if I don't miss my guess.

Also one thing to note is that absorbing the stallions will give some amount of Econ and Martial and probably Expansion as well. So thing to keep in mind. Though the cost of the new march will probably balance out.
I'm perfectly fine with it giving us Econ and Expansion, and feel that if we open up the March what will basically happen is we say "okay, y'all seem safe so we're just opening up this March and transferring warriors from here to there so they can protect you, who wants to protect people?" And thus will get all the eager soldiers to continue doing stuff.

Atm it's a frdog on a rabbit battling a snail. It was a garden design before. I'll probably change it again later today.
 
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I'm perfectly fine with it giving us Econ and Expansion, and feel that if we open up the March what will basically happen is we say "okay, y'all seem safe so we're just opening up this March and transferring warriors from here to there so they can protect you, who wants to protect people?" And thus will get all the eager soldiers to continue doing stuff.
That was my figuring to. Just a little touch and go on the admin so that we don't ridiculously boost our martial for a small period and have ~issues~.

I'd go for it though.
 
Can RoO be used at 0 if we're planning an action that would take it down 1? It can't be used at 0.
It was confirmed to be allowed for the Mine back when that cost us stability, so I assume it's allowed for any stability drop.
edit: source -
I would allow this, yes.

Reasonable point on the Dye/Salt thing. Unfortunately we don't have the econ to get the Salterns expansion done next turn.
 
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I voted for Fythhagyna and just her and yet I'm perfectly fine with the tie. I really don't see why people are calling those who wanted a tie 'trolls' or 'comandeering the vote'. There was no maliciousness to the votes at all that I could see and that seems to be what is being implied. Nor was it done for comedic effect. The vote was close and some people decided they'd like to see what a tie would do. Also, to those citing AN's previous quests and the punishments for write ins, this is a very different situation to begin with and some of those write ins were really begging for punishment and bad things to happen. This situation, not so much.

we don't vote strategically.

Erm... Strategic voting happens all the time in this thread? So I'm not sure what you meant by this.
 
Canon-ish - Divine Union
The Divine Union
A Short First ever Omake
Not many years ago Fythhagyna, Goddess of Fertility, tilled the fields and tended to all of nature for the People, she ensured that our bellies were full with veal and bread and that no issues were found in the lives the People. The Kingdom was prosperous at her bosom.

Then came the Crow.

It started innocently enough at first. The Crow would come and peck at the seeds in the fields and berries on the trees, Fythhagyna ignored it, for it was but one Crow, large though it was. Yet as time went on, the Crow ate more and more each year, less food was harvested and grown and the other Gods looked to Fythhagyna for answers. But she had none. She had tried to shoot the Crow with an arrow, it had laughed at her, she had tried to hit it with her sickle, again it laughed, finally she had dipped some of her seeds in poison, yet somehow the Crow avoided those ones most of all, laughing a third time at her, even as it glutted itself on the food meant to feed the People.

Finally, enraged, she gathered her bow and quiver, she gripped tightly her sickle and was directed to the Crows forest by the hunting goddess Ayrixyia. She set out to find the Crows nest and slay it whilst it slept.

During her travels she found herself again and again drawn off the road into the deep forests by the laughter of the Crow, meeting great beasts and demons which beset her, aiding many a woman and domestic animal with the birth of their young, many are the tales of her March, many are the tales of her actions. Yet still she could not find the Crows nest.

Worried about returning for the first harvest and the start of the collection of food by the People she decided to finally rest inside the canopy of a tree. Her beautiful form stretched out as she rested amongst the blades of grass.

This was her mistake.

When she awoke she had been pinned under a tree, it had been cut down, she realised, so that it would fall and trap her for a good amount of time. She heard the laughing and saw the Crow, plump and full to bursting, for whilst she had been hunting, he had swallowed up much of the seeds and with his wing beats had blown away the clouds that were full of water, creating a food shortage and drought for The People, reducing the fertility of the soil for his own ends, this is the same shortage and drought that affects us now.

It was then she realised the truth, this was no Crow other than The Crow! The Trickster had tricked her! Having never met the Crow Fythhagyna had never seen his tricks in action, but she had been impressed, if enraged, by his deception.

She lay under the tree for many a day, until she saw a traveling man along the road, she called out to him for aid and so he approached her, a kind and strange smile upon his face. Fythhagyna was beautiful and kinder than most and thus she asked him politely for his aid trying to lift the tree. This he refused, but he offered something else instead.

He offered to teach her how to release herself.

Fythhagyna accepted eagerly, and so she was taught. She was taught how to use things such as 'leverage' to pull at the tree, she was taught to reach inside the earth and pull at the Metal there to mould it and use it to cut away at the tree. She was also taught many other things, for the man sat by her and schooled her on the secrets of the world and soil, hinted at new techniques for her to use for her farms and new ways to breed her cattle and sheep.

When Fythhagyna finally released herself from under the tree she offered to take the man back to her abode and to feed him and clothe him should he teach her all he knew.

At that the man shook his head. He smirked at her and proclaimed that some lessons could not just be taught, but must also be learned, and in flurry of Crows wingbeats he was gone. Only then did Fythhagyna realise she had met Crow, The Teacher. And she felt herself feel all the happier for meeting him, and found herself missing his great wisdom, just as she found herself missing the challenge the Trickster presented her with.

When she returned home she prepared to fight the drought and protect the people, she took up her sickle and went forward to reap what harvest she could with all enthusiasm and to ensure that life returned to the plants and beasts of the land.

That was when it happened.

All across the land, discontent spread, fear bubbled up alongside plain nervousness, mortals looked towards tomorrow and shuddered. They knew something had changed, they knew something was wrong.

Fythhagyna discovered what it was when it appeared outside her door.

Crow, The Devourer.

She realised that he had come to sow misery amongst her farmers and her herders, come to sow the thoughts of an everlasting drought. Seeking to protect them and all beasts, plants and farms she leapt forward sickle at the ready.

She should have been smote by such a being as Crow The Devourer, but she was not, perhaps he had decided to be merciful, perhaps what happened next was all a part of his great trick or one of his schemes, this we do not yet know. They tussled and fought, Crow laughing constantly for hours, before being silent for days, only to start cackling once more. Then on the third week it ended.

Crow laughed, Fythhagyna smiled and laughed back.

Crow whispered in her ear that she was such fun, she whispered back that she wanted a boon for all the trouble he had caused. This shocked Crow, no one had ever been so bold as to ask him for something! Always had men and Gods and all things been his puppets, never being able to ask what fate they had in his grand scheme. So shocked and impressed by the simple but truly beautiful Fertility Goddess was he, that he allowed her this boon.

So she asked him to show her his true face.

Once again the Crow was shocked, even before the Garden had been made he had been split in three, all beings before had feared to look upon the Spider Eyed Crow. He asked her then if that was what she truly wanted. She replied that it was.

And so he showed her, he showed her the face that made Gwy and Goya scream, made Arxyn near flee and had been too hideous for his own world and creations to bear.

She simply smiled back.

You wonder why we still suffer the drought? You wonder why that feeling of doom has increased? Why there is more discontent?

It's because Fythhagyna is too busy with her new husband to care for mortal lives at the moment. Yes she will return, yes she will once again make sure our bellies are full and that life fully returns to the land, but that will be then, for now, she loves the unlovable, she is the only woman to catch the eye of The Crow, and though they may be happier for it, we have yet to see what it means for the world.


------So yeah, my first ever Omake, I did a thing, I couldn't resist it. I just needed to write something about the Divine Union that probably isn't gonna happen, hope this doesn't annoy you too much @Academia Nut
 
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Reasonable point on the Dye/Salt thing. Unfortunately we don't have the econ to get the Salterns expansion done next turn.
*shrug* Vote for Trade Post then. It's guaranteed where the dye isn't, and doing it in a relatively stable time like now will let the settlement take root relatively peacefully.

Also, we will have 9 econ at the start of the turn.
 
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Erm... Strategic voting happens all the time in this thread? So I'm not sure what you meant by this.
I guess I'm just going to leave you to it, then. I was enjoying the archive binge, but quests where five people can ruin everything for everybody are not what I would call fun. If that's what you want to design the quest for you can have it. I get more than enough of that in real life.
 
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Very late to the analysis, but no reason to stop~

Diplomacy 9 (+3) [+1]->13 (+0+3) [+1]
-
The power of Salt and Booze Compels You!

Economy 8 [-1]->4 (+5+1) [-1]
Econ Expansion 6->5 (+1)
-Vineyard -1
-Temple -1
-Expand Econ +4(delayed)
-Boats -2

Nothing much to see here aside from the drought mildly inconveniencing us.
We're getting an Econ Expansion off boats incidentally

Martial 10 {13} ->10 {11}

Quality of it's own continues to be an utter pain in the ass, but for now the drought relieves the issue

Stability -1->-1 (anxious)

Enforce Justice brings it up, and then it goes right back down thanks to drought event.

Centralization 3->4

At least we rolled the minimum here, thankfully.


Art 14 (max, overflowing)->13

Just the temple costs. Diplomacy will fill it right up again.

Trade Status
Resource Status Rivals
Luxuries    
Fine Pottery Minor Xohyssiri
Fine Dye Leading Hathatyn
Fine Textiles None Xohyssiri, Swamp Folk
Gold None Hathatyn, Metal Workers
Silver Moderate Hath, MW, Xoh
Salt Leading None
Strategic    
Copper Moderate Hath, Highlanders, Thunder Horse, MW
Bronze N/A Non-traded
??? N/A ???
Iron Non-traded dominant None
This is here mostly just for the record.
We are 1-2 Main actions away from Dyes dominance, are already dominant in Salt and Wine(heh, dice, salt and whine, of course we dominate!).

The ??? is probably the Tin, as a strategic resource used for bronze production. It's quite rare FYI, my country's capital got there by tin mining significance.

Centre of Trade (CA Linked)
By controlling access to resources you can get other people to come to you with their resources, enriching you.
Pros: Gain bonus Diplomacy a turn for dominating certain forms of trade, early access to more advanced mechanics
Cons: Others entering your markets prompts anger and strife
Our new social value!
AN had cleared it up, in that:
-People will rage only when Dominance is lost.
-The order goes Dominant(functional monopoly/flooding the market)>Leading>Moderate>Minor(Domestic use only)>None
-It does not account for the more advanced concept of leveraging the resources of others yet. Only domestic production counts.
-If you have multiple Dominant trades, the stability hits will be mitigated.

-It's not clear, but presumed that we gain +1 passive Diplomacy income for each form of Dominance. The formula may be different.
-It's not clear, and we don't know if all tradable alcohols count as a single trade or if they count for one per category, or if this will diversify as culture advances. Do we compete
-It's not clear but fine Stone likely cannot be traded unless shipping improves greatly.
-It's not clear but most foods cannot be traded without substantial food preservation technology.

@Academia Nut
What would we need to make Honey(later Sugar) tradable?

Authority
Directed Political Violence
Law Itself
Non-familial Patronage
Occupational Association
Tradition
And we have authority directed through your job. Very useful tool, though we've weakened it's grip by introducing Non-familial Patronage so there will be pushback from the old families while they pull in different directions.

[X][CA] Xohyssiri
[X][Clan] Roll back, institute occupational administration within Valleyhome (Possibility of stability loss)
[X][Main] Great Temple
[X][Secondary] Build Vineyard
[X][Secondary] Enforce Justice

Provinces [Main] Expand Econ, [Main] More Boats, [Sec] Study Stars

Stallions [Main] Expand Forest, [Sec] Trade Mission - Eastern Nomads, [Sec] Survey
Wall [Main] New Settlement, [Sec] Build Walls, [Sec] Trade Mission - Northern Nomads
Our provinces decide that waiting for us to do the boat building is silly, so they do it themselves. The Marches meanwhile asks the Nomads "Have you bastards had enough yet?" even as the bulk up on defenses and check out what they have.

The king decided to disengage from the messy business of his predecessors, withdrawing the changes to just within Upper Valleyhome, where all the problems had been concentrated anyways. Given that a full generation had not yet passed under the new system this went relatively smoothly, with a minimal disruption to the system.
Passed the Stability roll!

Within Upper Valleyhome itself the decision was made to have the artisans basically administer themselves, with the more senior and experienced members of a particular group coordinating to make sure that the junior members were cared for. Overall, the People liked it, as smiths obviously had different infrastructure needs than potters and now they felt like their concerns could be addressed to the king as a cohesive group instead of filtering up through senior clan members who might not understand the situation. The new occupational management also integrated nicely with some of the new ideas circulating from distance trade with the Xohyssiri.
We settled on telling people to literally mind their own businesses, so everyone gets a voice in their trade. Theoretically. For now.

The people immediately realize that communists can still make a profit from capitalism.
As this new system started to settle in with considerably greater success than the last one, the People also began to tackle a number of deep questions that the construction of the new holy site expansion in Sacred Forest was bringing up. As the foundation was being laid and art to fill the structure with being made, the planners ran into a most peculiar question that they had to address before they went further.

What spirit went at the centre?
Religious debate!
Though I've already done this bit yesterday, so just search for posts there.

Down south the war over the lowlands continued to be a slap-fest between all contenders, with the Highlanders maintaining a strategy of slowly grinding up the raiding forces sent at them while the Thunder Horse and their vassals were still able to dominate the field via overwhelming numbers, for the most part.
So we have the last Nomad War reenacted here. Highlanders turtle behind walls while the Thunder Horse discover that Bronze...is not going to do shit about a major wall.
Elsewhere the Metal Workers and Hathatyn seemed to be independently working out whatever secret the Thunder Horse had for the weapons their elites used, although they were fairly clearly keeping it secret. Still, more than a few pointed out that the variation on copper seemed to make for extraordinarily useful tools in small numbers, so figuring it out should be rather useful.
The other metalworkers are also focusing on figuring out Bronze now. We should be able to steal it soon for utility purposes. We also know that the Thunder Horse can't really make large amounts of the stuff.
However, as the seasons rolled on, a change started to settle into the air. The summers got hotter and the rainy season shorter. For a time the People were relatively unconcerned, they had dealt with droughts before, but by the third year of poor rainfall concern began to rise. Harvests were getting increasingly poor, and more and more people from outside were starting to wander into the People's territory looking for help. While the People gave freely, it was fairly obvious that trouble was brewing. The king was already trying to make sure that the various injustices and law violations that had spun out from the ill-fated experiment in changing the clan adoption rules, as the drought deepened and the fields and forests became increasingly stressed, the People grew increasingly anxious. What had happened, what had gone wrong?

Drought!
Payouts delayed, stability lost
Meanwhile, megadrought arrives. If we had the Stability for it I think we might have been able to steal bronze via maximum refugees.

As it is, we'd be suiciding, so no.

While the king was seeking to work out what to do, messengers from the furthest provinces brought troubling news. While they had made some peaceful contact with the new tribes that were filtering into the region vacated generations ago, the drought was pushing far enough north to begin stressing the nomads as well, and when the nomads got stressed their tolerance for peaceful interaction with outsiders plummeted. An increase in raid activity was inevitable, and they pleaded for further fortification of the frontier in preparation. Of course there were other demands upon the resources of the People in these trying times, but they did make a convincing argument that another province in the north that would ensure protection in all directions would be useful.
Nomads meanwhile decide that yes, getting facepunched is superior to getting rich. Idiots.
 
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One interesting thing: if you go to the Civilization sheet, when we have a good we are "Leading" in the word leading is no longer bold. Only Iron's "Non-trading Dominant" and Xohyssiri under Fine Pottery are bold, and AN told us that the Xoh are dominant in Fine Pottery. I assume, then, that bold now means "Dominant in that Resource".
 
The turn after this is bound to be fairly quiet, with massive population drop in Steppes and lowland with the famine and war.

I'm betting imaginary salt that Thunder speakers and Metal Workers bite the dust this turn.
 
So the big question seems to be do we aim for trade dominance with salt and wine and dyes, or do we aim for art and gold two spiff up the temple?

I think both options are good, either we get a strong buff to diplomacy or, well, we spiff up the temple. Maybe something like a stability buff or just some self pride in the People.
 
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The turn after this is bound to be fairly quiet, with massive population drop in Steppes and lowland with the famine and war.

I'm betting imaginary salt that Thunder speakers and Metal Workers bite the dust this turn.
Hmm.
I'd go for Thunder Speakers but not Metal Workers. They are possibly far enough away (the MW) to not be as badly affected.
 
The turn after this is bound to be fairly quiet, with massive population drop in Steppes and lowland with the famine and war.

I'm betting imaginary salt that Thunder speakers and Metal Workers bite the dust this turn.
The MW are on a river system so they will be fine; the nomads are probably screwed if they raid us.

The TS' land is dry so if they unsuccessfully raid the HK they're probably dead. We can't take advantage of that due to distance, though, so all it will do is give the TH more control.

Unless it opens up a "Found Governed Polity, -5 Economy -5 Martial -5 Diplomacy. Establishes an authoritarian system in a distant land. Troubles as a result of this expansion and internal cultural division may require further intervention" action.
 
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So the big question seems to be do we aim for trade dominance with salt and wine and dyes, or do we aim for art and gold two spiff up the temple?

I think both options are good, either we get a strong buff to diplomacy or, well, we spiff up the temple. Maybe something like a stability buff or just some self pride in the People.
Honestly, the trading outpost is better long term. They'll take missions like trade mission, or more boats regularly, which will establish both more diplomacy and more ways of getting diplomacy.

The potential drawback with it is that they may also discover other markets to break in to of people that are as rich as us and would contest some of our favored trade goods. It's rather odd that this is a problem, but it probably would be. We can blame it on the primitiveness of the trait for what it wants to do.
 
My thoughts are more along the line of them getting swamped in desperate nomads looking for food or wealth to trade for food.
 
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