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Paths of Civilization

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veekie said:
Okay, loose strategy for mission(note, somewhat guessing on Provincial actions):

Now
-Survey Land

Turn 1:
-If Survey Land finds a Redhill deposit:
--State Main - Build Iron Mine (Econ 9->?(unknown large bonus, but should stop at cap and overflow anyway), Stability 1->0, Mysticism 3->4, Art 7->8)
--State Secondary - Change Policy - Balanced
--State Secondary - Build Watchtowers - Southshore(Econ ?->?)
--Province Law - Expand Economy (Art 7->11 Econ overflow)
--Province Secondary 1 - Build Watchtowers - Southshore/Study Stars
--Province Secondary 2 - Improve Annual Festival
--Province Secondary 3 - Improve Annual Festival x2 (Econ ?->?, Art 11->12, Stability 0->1)

From here, it's simply doing Study Metal on Turn 2, and Study Tailings on Turn 3, if the provinces don't Study Health on Turn 2, we'll have to do it manually and accept that Turn 3 has no flexibility left.

-If Survey Land finds a wilderness deposit instead:
--State Main - Study Metal(Econ 9->8, Myst 3->1, Stability 1->0)
--State Secondary - Change Policy - Balanced
--State Secondary - New Settlement
--Province Law - Expand Economy(Econ 8->12)
--Province Secondary 1 - Study Health
--Province Secondary 2 - Study Health x2(Econ 12->11)
--Province Secondary 3 - Build Watchtowers - Southshore(Econ 11->10

From here, it's simply doing the Mine on Turn 2, but depending on specific province actions we might not be able to do the last Study until turn 3 due to lacking Mysticism until the Mine is built. We'll have to do a Turn 2 Grand Sacrifice or Festival instead.

Still a lot of variables, but @Academia Nut can we assume that the provinces will try to Main a Study Health when we're studying either Metal or Tailings in order to advance the challenge?
Barring something being urgent in their view, like Southshore taking a defense building.
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I am confused. Where is the guarantee that the provinces will study Health for us, and make it a main? Why is that a guarantee? I don't understand that, From the perspective of the provinces: sure it is something that would be nice to look at, but surely someone else (ex: The Players, the government) would get that done while the provinces make real change. I just don't understand why most plans for getting what we need in 3 turns assume the provinces will absolutely almost definitely, if we take Change policy - balance, choose to study health as a main action.

Academia Nut said:
Challenge Started!
You have 3 turns to complete the following:
[Main] Study Metal, [Main] Study Tailings, [Main] Study Health + Metal or Tailings, [Main] Build Mine
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What are our options here? From what I am reading we need one [Main] Study metal, one [Main] Study Tailings, one [Main] Build MIne, and one.....
[Main] Study Health. Is that one [Main] Study Health on it's own, or is it combined with a secondary Study Metal/ Tailings action during the same turn?

What about?
Turn 1
[Main] Grand Sacrifice
[Main] Study Health

Turn 2
[Main] Study Metal
??????????? (Player choice, for anything that needs done before the end)

Turn 3
[Main] Build Mine
[Main] Study Tailings
 
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Andres110 said:
These Secondaries could instead be used to do Grand Festival. It gives more Stability for the same amount of Econ and the same amount of actions.
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I'm assuming slightly less mechanical optimal but fully desirable actions by provinces(i.e. they're helping, but they're working off different information than we are). The Art generated by a Festival would bring us to overflowing Art one turn sooner after all, and there's still the secondary effects
Optimal would be indeed a Main Grand Sacrifice however.
BungieONI said:
What do you think of mixing Study Health with Study Tailings? I see that combo as detrimental because it has little room to challenge accepted facts. The Tailings will make people sick so...
I figure it's best to head off accidental but well meaning derpitude and make sure it is Metal that is taken with Health.
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Actually possible findings:
-Study Metal + Study Health
--Smelting fumes are poisonous. Bigger problem with Iron, due to the higher temperatures generating more volatiles and the iron extraction process requiring the generation of carbon monoxide, which is a scentless, tasteless poison that impairs judgment.
---This subtlety makes it trickier to discern whether smelting metal is bad luck, because the smelters are going to be suffering from chronic carbon monoxide poisoning, which can appear to be bad luck due to impaired intelligence and judgment.
---At the same time, it makes for stronger proof that metal curses in a specific, poisonous manner, by taking it into your body, rather than being a generalized jinx. This means people will work on sealing the smelters better and see things visibly improved.
--However, we're also likely to make progress towards figuring out steel, as closer study of metal will reveal that it's differently hard depending on how you smelt and forge it.

-Study Tailings + Study Health
--Tailings are more obviously toxic. They taste horrible, smell horrible, corrode pottery and metal and discolors stone and soil alike, bleaching them. This is actually beneficial here, by producing a visible and obvious, yet contained evidence of the curse, because the people working near the tailings will be in perfectly good health unless they actually came in contact with the tailings.
---This may also reveal that our previous tailing pits are being corroded by the tailings, we hadn't had a breach YET, but realizing this will push for the development of a material that can contain them, or at least making the pits thicker.
---This may also reveal that pyrites are being formed in the pits, depending on their location, as they leach minerals from the ceramic. This will bring things into question.
--However, we're also likely to make progress towards figuring out chemistry, as we'd observe that the tailings form MORE colorful rock, as if they're stealing color from their surrounding rock and pottery.

Summary: Both work. Studying Metal will be the harder one, Studying Tailings will likely require some remedial work.
 
Marlin said:
I am confused. Where is the guarantee that the provinces will study Health for us, and make it a main? Why is that a guarantee?
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"Are the provinces aware of the exact requirements and will they thus attempt to fulfill them as best they're able within the policy we set?"
Academia Nut said:
Yes.
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That answer the question?


BlueFlamingWings said:
By the way, I've seen them mentioned a few times but who are the Hathatyn?
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That's the name of the Southern Hill People, the ones who are raiding our boats all the time.
 
Necratoid said:
This is not how Marches work. Marches are explicitly semi-expendable, semi-autonomous vassal states. They run their own economy. They are their as Ablative armor mini-Civs. Sure we can't let them die on purpose or ignore them... but the Stallions have to support them also.

I'm pretty sure he said that we can't get to those specific nomad unless we get that march set up there or the logistics trail is not feasible... not that settling a march screws up the main states logistics.

Also, they could just go there if they don't have permission anyway... then we a new march with issues. Something is happening with those half again as many as cap troops. This is the controlled use of them.
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I think you are forgetting the trouble we had because the Stallion Tribe was explicitly too far away.

You also tried to play it off, but we do have a trait that explicitly says we have to come to the defense of our vassals, which means wasting time and resources in land that is more trouble than it is worth. We don't, we risk losing stability.

The last part is speculation.
 
veekie said:
I'm assuming slightly less mechanical optimal but fully desirable actions by provinces(i.e. they're helping, but they're working off different information than we are). The Art generated by a Festival would bring us to overflowing Art one turn sooner after all, and there's still the secondary effects
Optimal would be indeed a Main Grand Sacrifice however.

Actually possible findings:
-Study Metal + Study Health
--Smelting fumes are poisonous. Bigger problem with Iron, due to the higher temperatures generating more volatiles and the iron extraction process requiring the generation of carbon monoxide, which is a scentless, tasteless poison that impairs judgment.
---This subtlety makes it trickier to discern whether smelting metal is bad luck, because the smelters are going to be suffering from chronic carbon monoxide poisoning, which can appear to be bad luck due to impaired intelligence and judgment.
---At the same time, it makes for stronger proof that metal curses in a specific, poisonous manner, by taking it into your body, rather than being a generalized jinx. This means people will work on sealing the smelters better and see things visibly improved.
--However, we're also likely to make progress towards figuring out steel, as closer study of metal will reveal that it's differently hard depending on how you smelt and forge it.

-Study Tailings + Study Health
--Tailings are more obviously toxic. They taste horrible, smell horrible, corrode pottery and metal and discolors stone and soil alike, bleaching them. This is actually beneficial here, by producing a visible and obvious, yet contained evidence of the curse, because the people working near the tailings will be in perfectly good health unless they actually came in contact with the tailings.
---This may also reveal that our previous tailing pits are being corroded by the tailings, we hadn't had a breach YET, but realizing this will push for the development of a material that can contain them, or at least making the pits thicker.
---This may also reveal that pyrites are being formed in the pits, depending on their location, as they leach minerals from the ceramic. This will bring things into question.
--However, we're also likely to make progress towards figuring out chemistry, as we'd observe that the tailings form MORE colorful rock, as if they're stealing color from their surrounding rock and pottery.

Summary: Both work. Studying Metal will be the harder one, Studying Tailings will likely require some remedial work.
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Hmmm okay I can see where you are coming from with this.

I guess my real concern of Tailings + Health is all those stories of the Ancient Chinese using mercury as an ingredient in their Elixir of Immortality. Bad juju for sure.
My concern is that our Ymaryn will do something similar.
 
Maybe we should do a slat gift to the Hathatyn to make sure they don't waste our time by fighting us and maybe giving us some shinies?
 
NotteBoy97 said:
Maybe we should do a slat gift to the Hathatyn to make sure they don't waste our time by fighting us and maybe giving us some shinies?
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Could work, could not. They aren't nomads so they probably won't interpret it as a sign of weakness.

We may not have the time though. Very well worth it to consider though.
 
Marlin said:
I am confused. Where is the guarantee that the provinces will study Health for us, and make it a main? Why is that a guarantee? I don't understand that, From the perspective of the provinces: sure it is something that would be nice to look at, but surely someone else (ex: The Players, the government) would get that done while the provinces make real change. I just don't understand why most plans for getting what we need in 3 turns assume the provinces will absolutely almost definitely, if we take Change policy - balance, choose to study health as a main action.
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No, it doesn't. The plan considers it a nice bonus if the provinces do it for us, as it gives us strategic flexibility.

Actions that provinces can take for us in Balanced:
-Survey Land
-New Settlement(Mine site)
-Festivals
-Grand Sacrifices
-Study Health
-Study Stars
-Expand Holy Sites

Actions that MUST be taken by us:
-Build Mine
-Study Metal
-Study Tailings

This is the plan stripped of things like making sure we have enough Mysticism and Economy:
Turn 1:
-If we have a mine site settled, build a mine immediately. The provinces will take care of fortifications and boosting Stability for us
--Turn 2:
---Then we Study Tailings and Study Health. The provinces will take care of fortifications and boosting Stability for us.
----Turn 3:
-----Then we Study Metal and spend the last 2 secondary actions on Stuff.

-If we have located a mine site but don't have it settled, the provinces will automatically settle it for us as a high priority. Study Metal instead.Hope the provinces supply Study Health this turn.
--Turn 2:
---If the provinces settle it as predicted, build a Mine and Study Tailings. Hope the provinces supply Study Health this turn.
----Turn 3:
-----If the Provinces supplied Study Health for us, we finish it.
-----If the Provinces do NOT supply Study Health for us, we finish with Study Tailings/Study Metal and Study Health.

---If the provinces do not settle it for some reason, settle it manually and Study Metal. Hope the provinces supply Study Health this turn.
----Turn 3:
-----If the Provinces supplied Study Health for us, we finish it with a Study Tailings and Build the Mine.
-----If the Provinces didn't supply Study Health for us, we finish it with a Study Tailings and Build the Mine and hope they have the sense to Study Health this time. Also curse them for being dumbys

-If we did not locate a mine site at all in this mid turn...we'd be in a slightly sticky position.

What are our options here? From what I am reading we need one [Main] Study metal, one [Main] Study Tailings, one [Main] Build MIne, and one.....
[Main] Study Health. Is that one [Main] Study Health on it's own, or is it combined with a secondary Study Metal, Tailings action during the same turn?

What about?
Turn 1
[Main] Grand Sacrifice
[Main] Study Health

Turn 2
[Main] Study Metal
??????????? (Player choice, for anything that needs done before the end)

Turn 3
[Main] Build Mine
[Main] Study Tailings
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This plan automatically fails btw.
 
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Sivantic said:
Salt gift helped last time with the nomads as well.

Just have to make sure that it isn't in payment
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Yep. I was mostly thinking of the last Khan when I said that.

Bit of a tricky sort of Diplo action, but we have that to burn.

As to the goals I think we need to get through for the next ten turns or so.

1) Don't die. This is obvious but important enough I feel it bears stating.

2) Succeed in the Challenge intact.

These two above come first.

Then the rest follow in no particular order.

3) Raise Prestige to 13 or higher.
3b) After Prestige is past 10, put down the North East March.

4) Fight off any Hostiles. Be they Hathatyn, Nomads, or Thunder Speakers.

5) Expand east. This is surprisingly the most secure direction we can expand in, because of the hills. It does put us closer to the Thunder Speakers and we will have more frontage to defend from Nomads but that is a workable issue that any of our expansion directions have to deal with except going into the Central Lowlands. We will surprisingly not have any threats from direct south because the center Lowlands are mostly empty and the major Lowland powers have pulled out of the center to deal with their own issues.

6) Improve our boats. These help in a multitude of areas, from feeding and connecting our Marches, to fighting off pirates, to exploration. Very useful to have.

7) Contact and begin trade with the super rich folks in the Far South West. These Guys and Gals sound like they may know quite a few people and would be our key to wider knowledge of the World.

8) Reinstate trade with the Metal Workers. We don't need them anymore but they are a technical super power and getting their input will provide a nice bonus to keeping us ahead of the Nomads who went that way. Difficult though. Really with the Nomads taking them over it's obvious they are seeking metal knowledge of their own, which makes them more annoying but we still have Iron at least.

9) Begin trade with the Xohyssiri. I mean why not? If they want to trade with everyone that is quite Harmonious. Plus they, like the Super Rich People, will provide us much information. Additionally through them we may be able to shmooze the Thunder Horse and make it so that instead of raiding and attacking us, the Thunder Horse are actually our friends. That'd be a coup. Though Omegahugger might scream bloody murder about allying with the Thunder Not!Friends.

10) Begin a Megaproject and finish it. Pick any of the Library, Temple, Palace, Dam, or Place to the Stars and you have my support.
 
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Sivantic said:
I think you are forgetting the trouble we had because the Stallion Tribe was explicitly too far away.

You also tried to play it off, but we do have a trait that explicitly says we have to come to the defense of our vassals, which means wasting time and resources in land that is more trouble than it is worth. We don't, we risk losing stability.

The last part is speculation.
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The Stallions were problems because they started with divergent values and by a hero unit with a grudge. The Hero unit then taught his family to be utterly annoying. In addition they built things in the great and mighty land of 'Waaaaay the Hell Over There', refused to build in a road system and then whined about the distance endlessly. They were actively trying to be a problem for a long time. It wasn't until they got bored or forgot they weren't suppose to make life easy for The People at large and got around to building actual roads and the Hero Admin built the roads to their roads. Thus they got over themselves.

Yes ignoring them is a bad idea however:
-The Stallions are directly next to them. This means they get support to an extent and by boat they are like three four months a year out at current (trade trips took around a year centuries ago to the metal workers way back when). They shouldn't avoid proper roads so it will be much faster to get around once there. Basically its faster to the new march back them up than the Stallions of that time pre-roads.
-This will be a perfect excuse to upgrade boat tech as supplying them will be much easier that way.

The reason for the March is the Protective Justice trigger when The People found out where those Hero nomad !&$^% went. So not doing this causes value events. Also, 50% more army than remotely useful is a crisis waiting to happen. They want and their values need to settle that march. Those nomad Hero's people aren't escaping their just rewards. The Vengeance of The People is coming for them.

Speculation on my part is that if we don't send them they'll go anyway and be mad at the central government. Its more going with or without the central governments blessing.

BungieONI said:
We may not have the time though. Very well worth it to consider though.
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Salt gift goes along trade routes last I checked... there isn't a trade route currently available.
 
Necratoid said:
The Stallions were problems because they started with divergent values and by a hero unit with a grudge. The Hero unit then taught his family to be utterly annoying. In addition they built things in the great and mighty land of 'Waaaaay the Hell Over There', refused to build in a road system and then whined about the distance endlessly. They were actively trying to be a problem for a long time. It wasn't until they got bored or forgot they weren't suppose to make life easy for The People at large and got around to building actual roads and the Hero Admin built the roads to their roads. Thus they got over themselves.

Yes ignoring them is a bad idea however:
-The Stallions are directly next to them. This means they get support to an extent and by boat they are like three four months a year out at current (trade trips took around a year centuries ago to the metal workers way back when). They shouldn't avoid proper roads so it will be much faster to get around once there. Basically its faster to the new march back them up than the Stallions of that time pre-roads.
-This will be a perfect excuse to upgrade boat tech as supplying them will be much easier that way.

The reason for the March is the Protective Justice trigger when The People found out where those Hero nomad !&$^% went. So not doing this causes value events. Also, 50% more army than remotely useful is a crisis waiting to happen. They want and their values need to settle that march. Those nomad Hero's people aren't escaping their just rewards. The Vengeance of The People is coming for them.

Speculation on my part is that if we don't send them they'll go anyway and be mad at the central government. Its more going with or without the central governments blessing.


Salt gift goes along trade routes last I checked... there isn't a trade route currently available.
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Those are all good reasons to have a March. Those are all good reasons to build port towns. Ther is no specific reason why we should build the March there.

Also, the Stallions weren't trying to be bad, they tried building roads and boats from the start.
 
Sivantic said:
You also tried to play it off, but we do have a trait that explicitly says we have to come to the defense of our vassals, which means wasting time and resources in land that is more trouble than it is worth. We don't, we risk losing stability
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Keep in mind that a march is meant to protect us. If they suffer an attack that requires us to go help them, that implies that such an attack would have hit our province if they weren't around. Marches aren't there just to make a bigger border, they are created to set themselves up as our outer defenses. For all that we complained about the Stallion Tribes, they saved us from the nomads big time. Think about what would have happened if that initial nomad rush hit our northern provinces instead of the Stallions. We'd have suddenly found ourself with quite a bit of missing Econ, with no real way to recover it like we helped the Stallions do.

Tl;dr A march is a defense buffer, not a land grab.

Edit: Annnnd too late. Stupid typing on phone...
 
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[X] Yes, send out the warriors (-5 Martial, -2 Econ)
[X] Attempt peaceful contact
[X] Survey Lands (-1 Econ, improved odds of success)
 
Sivantic said:
Those are all good reasons to have a March. Those are all good reasons to build port towns. Ther is no specific reason why we should build the March there.

Also, the Stallions weren't trying to be bad, they tried building roads and boats from the start.
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It allows us to wage war on the nomads and if said nomads now control the metal workers I would not mind getting some of their secrets
 
@Academia Nut, the Hatti and Hittites are 2 different folks.

The Hittites are comparatively latecomers to Anatolia. They are immigrant conquerors of the original inhabitants, the Hatti.
 
Sivantic said:
Those are all good reasons to have a March. Those are all good reasons to build port towns. Ther is no specific reason why we should build the March there.
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Well, setting up that march does protect our province, which, considering the nomads used that opening to raid our territory last time, might be a good idea. And there isn't really that much of a cost to us, other than occasionally having to kill more nomads when they Waaagh... which we'd have to do either way.

Also, vengeance is quite a sweet prize, especially if it lets us recover our MW trade ties eventually.
 
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