Can't be doubled by The Law but it can still be combined via province actions.
Since the provinces know that we need to get a [Main] Study Health done, they'll be willing to do the combination.
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
DocMatoi
Theoretical Lover of Girls
- Location
- within 2 hours of the White House
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Have the Hathatyn heard rumors of the hot new Ymari magick?
- Pronouns
- He/Him
You do know that if you want to armour against the people who kicked you, you need to put the march in the west now because that's where they went?
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I imagine that Sivantic is more worried about new nomads appearing since the previous horde (do they have a name?) has "settled" and thus faces eventual collapse far away from us.
Personally I'd be in favor of a third March after this one. Maybe we assimilate the Stallion Tribes once and for all, or maybe we raise Prestige to 10 for the additional slot.
My personal long-term plan there is to get Prestige to 13 (I want a 3-prestige buffer so we don't risk having them break away) and then make the 3rd March. After that we Integrate the Stallions, and use the freed slot to make a Trading Post with the Metal Workers.
Before that though I want to complete The Library and start another Golden Age. And all of this comes after we're done evolving Observance of course.
Technically, my main concern is that people don't seem to be thinking that the survey options can take multiple tries to find metal specifically. That makes it the most blatant point of failure. If the dice really, really think its hilarious the challenge can just fail entirely due to lack of a mine to mine. There may or may not need to be a new settlement founded to mine said theoretical mine.
This is the planning stages and I'd rather not have people voting to ditch things on the provinces and ignore our way into victory. My own plan was ignored, though it was early on.
For me, it was half turn study metal, then first turn policy switch and a grand sacrifice for the stab faction. All of 2 votes for study metal happened.
I actually want study tailings and study health at the same time as study metal/health has happened before and study tailings/health means countering any random new issues.
Its more getting in position to shank those specific nomads they ran from The People and moved into blockade position on the Metal Workers. The specific location is Protective Justice getting The People a forward position to attack those &^#&@s.
I'm confused here? I agree that Survey can take multiple tries, hence why we want to do it now so that if the [Main] Survey does fail, we get a second chance at it next turn. We need it done by the end of next turn, so knowing now if we've got it complete is extremely useful.
It's likely that a [Main] Survey will find some sort of metal (if perhaps not iron) since our previous surveys were all [Secondary]. Of the 4 [Secondary] surveys taken (2 by us, 2 by provinces) we found Copper and Iron, and were told that the provinces crit failed on both their surveys. However, since success is not guaranteed, we need to take the Survey now so that we can try again next turn if we crit fail now. If we do the Survey next turn and crit fail then, we've lost the challenge since we can't make both a settlement and a mine on the same turn.
edit:
All 3 other requirements can be done in a single turn if we've shifted policies already. We do both the Study Metal and Study Tailing actions, the provinces do Study Health and have 2 actions free.
As long as we get the Mine at least a turn early, we're safe. The way to get the mine is to survey.
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BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Turn 1:
[Main] Study <Metal>
[Secondary] Change Policy - Balanced
[Secondary] Grand Sacrifice
Provinces:
[Main] Study Health
[Main] Expand Economy (The Law)
[Secondary] Study Stars
I believe we should take metal when the Provinces are likely to study health because we don't want them to derp it up and accidentally strengthen the Belief. Study Health + Tailings just logically sounds like they are going to find something bad and mix it up and strengthen Weapons of the Gods.
Study Metal will take -1 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Stability. Grand Sacrifice is taken and it takes -2 Econ and gives +1 Stability. This leaves us (after the march if we take it which is -2 by itself) at 4 Econ, 1 Mysticism, and 1 Stability. The Provinces will fulfill the Study Health half of the Study Health + Metal/Tailings taking -1 Econ to do so taking us to 3 Econ. +4 Econ from Expand Economy, and +1 Mysticism from Study Stars. So the turn ends with the stats being 1 Stability, Max Legitimacy, 7 Econ, and 2 Mysticism. So we have a net resource flow of -2 Econ and -1 Mysticism and +0 Stability. About as good as we are going to get.
Mid turn
This will be Challenge related. Try for the Stability raising option. Or fulfill one of the other requirements, preferably tailings study. Generally speaking having positive Stability will be really helpful for this.
War is probably coming from the East since my easy prediction was right and the Thunder Speakers rebellion got smashed flat. The system the Thunder Horse have going breeds more rebellion and resentment however so we gotta watch that closely. Then again the Thunder Horse might also need to consolidate their hold again. At least the Thunder Speakers won't be directly attacking us! With this they can't do that silly "Well beat your heads in for what you did!" stuff they were talking up. Now they are too busy guarding their masters and their masters see no reason to attack us.
Turn 2:
[Main] Build Mine Redhill
[Main] Study <Tailings>
Provinces:
[Main] Restore Order
[Main] Expand Economy (The Law)
[Secondary] Study Stars
Annnnnd we're done. This fulfills the Mine Requirement and the Tailings individual study Requirement. This will take -4 Econ and -1 Stability for the Mine. And -1 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Stability, for the Tailings study. Before the Provinces can act we are at 2 Econ, 0 Mysticism, and -1 Stability. So with Restore Order who recently proved themselves not to be useless (Yay!), we hope they get us to 0 Stability, the +4 Econ of Expand Economy means we are at 6 Econ and Study Stars pushes us to 1 Mysticism. Net Resource flows are -1 Econ, -1 Mysticism, -1 Stability. But this is survivable.
[Main] Study <Metal>
[Secondary] Change Policy - Balanced
[Secondary] Grand Sacrifice
Provinces:
[Main] Study Health
[Main] Expand Economy (The Law)
[Secondary] Study Stars
I believe we should take metal when the Provinces are likely to study health because we don't want them to derp it up and accidentally strengthen the Belief. Study Health + Tailings just logically sounds like they are going to find something bad and mix it up and strengthen Weapons of the Gods.
Study Metal will take -1 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Stability. Grand Sacrifice is taken and it takes -2 Econ and gives +1 Stability. This leaves us (after the march if we take it which is -2 by itself) at 4 Econ, 1 Mysticism, and 1 Stability. The Provinces will fulfill the Study Health half of the Study Health + Metal/Tailings taking -1 Econ to do so taking us to 3 Econ. +4 Econ from Expand Economy, and +1 Mysticism from Study Stars. So the turn ends with the stats being 1 Stability, Max Legitimacy, 7 Econ, and 2 Mysticism. So we have a net resource flow of -2 Econ and -1 Mysticism and +0 Stability. About as good as we are going to get.
Mid turn
This will be Challenge related. Try for the Stability raising option. Or fulfill one of the other requirements, preferably tailings study. Generally speaking having positive Stability will be really helpful for this.
War is probably coming from the East since my easy prediction was right and the Thunder Speakers rebellion got smashed flat. The system the Thunder Horse have going breeds more rebellion and resentment however so we gotta watch that closely. Then again the Thunder Horse might also need to consolidate their hold again. At least the Thunder Speakers won't be directly attacking us! With this they can't do that silly "Well beat your heads in for what you did!" stuff they were talking up. Now they are too busy guarding their masters and their masters see no reason to attack us.
Turn 2:
[Main] Build Mine Redhill
[Main] Study <Tailings>
Provinces:
[Main] Restore Order
[Main] Expand Economy (The Law)
[Secondary] Study Stars
Annnnnd we're done. This fulfills the Mine Requirement and the Tailings individual study Requirement. This will take -4 Econ and -1 Stability for the Mine. And -1 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Stability, for the Tailings study. Before the Provinces can act we are at 2 Econ, 0 Mysticism, and -1 Stability. So with Restore Order who recently proved themselves not to be useless (Yay!), we hope they get us to 0 Stability, the +4 Econ of Expand Economy means we are at 6 Econ and Study Stars pushes us to 1 Mysticism. Net Resource flows are -1 Econ, -1 Mysticism, -1 Stability. But this is survivable.
Turn 1 We don't find a site. And some bullshit starts the Provinces have to deal with. The Nomads Caravan does not go peaceably.
[Main] Study <Tailings>
[Secondary] Change Policy - Balanced
[Secondary] War Mission Nomad Caravan
Provinces:
[Secondary] Survey Lands
[Main] Walls in Southshore
[Main] Expand Economy (The Law)
The Thunder Horse/Speakers are not in a position to attack us, they have to consolidate their hold over their unruly vassal. And the Nomads are gone for the time being to go eat the Metal Workers. So what we have to worry about are the Caravan and the Hathatyn Boats.
-1 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Stability,from tailings taking us to 6 Econ, 1 Mysticism and 0 Stability. We probably lost Martial. Survey is free. -2 Econ in walls so we are at 4 Econ. +4 Econ from Expand Econ equals 8 Econ.
Mid turn
This will be Challenge related. Try for the Stability raising option. Or fulfill one of the other requirements, preferably Mine. Generally speaking having positive Stability will be really helpful for this. War is probably coming from the East since my easy prediction was right and the Thunder Speakers rebellion got smashed flat. The system the Thunder Horse have going breeds more rebellion and resentment however so we gotta watch that closely.
Turn 2
[Main] Build Iron Mine in Redhill
[Secondary] War Mission Nomads
[Secondary] Expand Holy Site Redhill
Provinces:
[Main] Expand Economy (The Law)
[Main] Restore Order
[Main] Expand Holy Site
So Iron Mine is -4 Econ and -1 Stability. Expand Holy Site is +1 Mysticism and -1 Econ. We are at 4 Econ and -1 Stability and 2 Mysticism. We are at 3 Econ and 2 Mysticism for the Provinces and they do +2 Econ and no improvement in stability because RoO is neutral and +3 Mysticism. So we end at 3 Econ, with 5 Mysticism and -1 Stability.
Mid turn
More shit exploding. Hopefully we survive.
Turn 3
[Main] Study <Metal>
[Secondary] Study Health
[Secondary] Study Health x2
Provinces:
[Main] Expand Economy (The Law)
[Main] Restore Order
[Secondary] Expand Economy
-1 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Stability, from Metal taking us to 2 Econ, 3 Mysticism and -2 Stability. Main Study Health takes -1 Econ taking us to 1 Econ. We probably lost Martial. +6 Econ from the Expand Econ. Restore Order is neutral again. So we end at 7 Econ, 3 Mysticism, and -2 Stability. Much like where we were a while ago, even with the being attacked and all. Possibly further Stab drops because we can't respond to all the Attacks.
[Main] Study <Tailings>
[Secondary] Change Policy - Balanced
[Secondary] War Mission Nomad Caravan
Provinces:
[Secondary] Survey Lands
[Main] Walls in Southshore
[Main] Expand Economy (The Law)
The Thunder Horse/Speakers are not in a position to attack us, they have to consolidate their hold over their unruly vassal. And the Nomads are gone for the time being to go eat the Metal Workers. So what we have to worry about are the Caravan and the Hathatyn Boats.
-1 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Stability,from tailings taking us to 6 Econ, 1 Mysticism and 0 Stability. We probably lost Martial. Survey is free. -2 Econ in walls so we are at 4 Econ. +4 Econ from Expand Econ equals 8 Econ.
Mid turn
This will be Challenge related. Try for the Stability raising option. Or fulfill one of the other requirements, preferably Mine. Generally speaking having positive Stability will be really helpful for this. War is probably coming from the East since my easy prediction was right and the Thunder Speakers rebellion got smashed flat. The system the Thunder Horse have going breeds more rebellion and resentment however so we gotta watch that closely.
Turn 2
[Main] Build Iron Mine in Redhill
[Secondary] War Mission Nomads
[Secondary] Expand Holy Site Redhill
Provinces:
[Main] Expand Economy (The Law)
[Main] Restore Order
[Main] Expand Holy Site
So Iron Mine is -4 Econ and -1 Stability. Expand Holy Site is +1 Mysticism and -1 Econ. We are at 4 Econ and -1 Stability and 2 Mysticism. We are at 3 Econ and 2 Mysticism for the Provinces and they do +2 Econ and no improvement in stability because RoO is neutral and +3 Mysticism. So we end at 3 Econ, with 5 Mysticism and -1 Stability.
Mid turn
More shit exploding. Hopefully we survive.
Turn 3
[Main] Study <Metal>
[Secondary] Study Health
[Secondary] Study Health x2
Provinces:
[Main] Expand Economy (The Law)
[Main] Restore Order
[Secondary] Expand Economy
-1 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Stability, from Metal taking us to 2 Econ, 3 Mysticism and -2 Stability. Main Study Health takes -1 Econ taking us to 1 Econ. We probably lost Martial. +6 Econ from the Expand Econ. Restore Order is neutral again. So we end at 7 Econ, 3 Mysticism, and -2 Stability. Much like where we were a while ago, even with the being attacked and all. Possibly further Stab drops because we can't respond to all the Attacks.
Near Absolute Worst case. Absolute Worst is Mid turn/Survey Fails fucks us over entirely and we have to fail.
Please let me know if I screwed up my math somewhere @notgreat.
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- Location
- Hell
That is part of it, the another is that looking at the map, the Northeast would-be March is above part of our Northern Border and the Eastern Hills that we plan to establish.
It's extending our borders in an unmanageable way is what. There is little reason to expand in that direction and only opens ourselves to more Nomad raids. AN even said so himself, extending that far is reaching the limits of our logistics and with our new trait, we can't just let them take hits as that risks stability hits. We have to waste even more resources just to keep them there.
@BungieONI
Why Expand Holy Site? [Secondary] Expand Holy Sites is strictly worse than Study Stars, we want to [Main] it for the Art and additional effects.
Even better, we can get the necessary Mysticism by building the Mine and triggering Canal. You seem to have forgotten that the Mine provides a boatload of Econ as well. Assuming we get an Iron mine, going from last time:
-4 Start
+8/2 Mid-turn
+4/4 end of turn
That's +8 econ +6 Martial net total, paid out by the end of that turn, plus the Canal bonus. It's likely that we'll get quite a bit less this time, but still....
Even the Copper Mine gave us +3 Econ as well as triggering Canal, so we can treat that as a worst-case minimum.
I didn't count all your numbers but they seem roughly correct, though I think it's likely that the provinces will do some different actions, the pain of Policy - Balanced is that they're virtually impossible to predict. For example, I consider Boats to be the most likely response to the southern aggression problem.
Why Expand Holy Site? [Secondary] Expand Holy Sites is strictly worse than Study Stars, we want to [Main] it for the Art and additional effects.
Even better, we can get the necessary Mysticism by building the Mine and triggering Canal. You seem to have forgotten that the Mine provides a boatload of Econ as well. Assuming we get an Iron mine, going from last time:
-4 Start
+8/2 Mid-turn
+4/4 end of turn
That's +8 econ +6 Martial net total, paid out by the end of that turn, plus the Canal bonus. It's likely that we'll get quite a bit less this time, but still....
Even the Copper Mine gave us +3 Econ as well as triggering Canal, so we can treat that as a worst-case minimum.
I didn't count all your numbers but they seem roughly correct, though I think it's likely that the provinces will do some different actions, the pain of Policy - Balanced is that they're virtually impossible to predict. For example, I consider Boats to be the most likely response to the southern aggression problem.
- Location
- United States
After this event chain is over we look to do a salt gift or art patronage. If we lose too much prestige we'll have one or both of our colonies break away.
We also have to expand forests 3 times...so maybe 2 in the new colony and 1 in the marches?
@Academia Nut A few questions.
How are we doing for dye production? Are we meeting the demand?
Do our Iron tools make more watch towers, or do they not affect the building?
Would establishing a trading post at GreenMouth expose it to the occupied metal workers, or will this new colony act as protection?
We also have to expand forests 3 times...so maybe 2 in the new colony and 1 in the marches?
@Academia Nut A few questions.
How are we doing for dye production? Are we meeting the demand?
Do our Iron tools make more watch towers, or do they not affect the building?
Would establishing a trading post at GreenMouth expose it to the occupied metal workers, or will this new colony act as protection?
Okay, I don't have a lot of time to fully catch up or analyze but:
Hidden requirements:
[Main] Study Metal
-Province will not take this
-Costs Stability - Provinces will increase Stability if they have the Economy.
-Costs Mysticism - Provinces will increase Mysticism if they have the Economy
[Main] Study Tailings
-Province will not take this
-Costs Stability - Provinces will increase Stability if they have the Economy.
-Costs Mysticism - Provinces will increase Mysticism if they have the Economy
[Main] Study Health + Metal or Tailings,
-Comboing this with Metal will be trying to prove a negative
-Comboing this with Tailings will focus on the specific harm of Tailings.
[Main] Build Mine
-Province will not take this
-Costs Stability - Provinces will increase Stability if they have the Economy.
-Requires Survey before possible(Econ -1). Survey MAY draw a blank, requiring more than one attempt.
-May require new settlement before possible
We have 3 turns.
The failure point is running out of Mysticism and running out of time to Build Mine(which requires 3 actions on three turns)
Balanced Policy is the best way to get it, because there's no Progress policy actions available aside from Study Health that can help.
[X] Yes, send out the warriors (-5 Martial, -2 Econ)
[X] Attempt peaceful contact
[X] Survey Lands (-1 Econ, improved odds of success)
Hidden requirements:
[Main] Study Metal
-Province will not take this
-Costs Stability - Provinces will increase Stability if they have the Economy.
-Costs Mysticism - Provinces will increase Mysticism if they have the Economy
[Main] Study Tailings
-Province will not take this
-Costs Stability - Provinces will increase Stability if they have the Economy.
-Costs Mysticism - Provinces will increase Mysticism if they have the Economy
[Main] Study Health + Metal or Tailings,
-Comboing this with Metal will be trying to prove a negative
-Comboing this with Tailings will focus on the specific harm of Tailings.
[Main] Build Mine
-Province will not take this
-Costs Stability - Provinces will increase Stability if they have the Economy.
-Requires Survey before possible(Econ -1). Survey MAY draw a blank, requiring more than one attempt.
-May require new settlement before possible
We have 3 turns.
The failure point is running out of Mysticism and running out of time to Build Mine(which requires 3 actions on three turns)
Balanced Policy is the best way to get it, because there's no Progress policy actions available aside from Study Health that can help.
[X] Yes, send out the warriors (-5 Martial, -2 Econ)
[X] Attempt peaceful contact
[X] Survey Lands (-1 Econ, improved odds of success)
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- Location
- Toronto, Ontario(occasionally)
[X] [March] Yes, send out the warriors (-5 Martial, -2 Econ)
[X] [Caravan] Attempt peaceful contact
[X] [Challenge] Survey Lands (-1 Econ, improved odds of success)
Changed my vote to survey lands, remembered that we have a study things policy, doing that next turn takes a lot of the difficulty out of this.
[X] [Caravan] Attempt peaceful contact
[X] [Challenge] Survey Lands (-1 Econ, improved odds of success)
Changed my vote to survey lands, remembered that we have a study things policy, doing that next turn takes a lot of the difficulty out of this.
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- Location
- Panama City
AN HAS stated when a Crisis or Challenge is in effect the provinces will generally do actions related to that if the policy allows those actions, though yeah the ORDER those actions gets done in can be a bit random.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
No you won't, as none of the colonies are supported by Prestige right now.
Dye is okay, could always use more.
Iron tools are making more robust watchtowers.
Trading post is no longer available at all due to hostile interference.
- Location
- Panama City
Building a mine counts as an engineering project for Canal purposes, So we potentially have all the mystic we need assuming we find a mine site in the next turn.
- Location
- New Zealand
Does building a new March drop Centralization? If so building it would drop us to Centralization 2/Hierarchy 6, which is a pretty big gap.
And is there any proof that overflowing Martial is bad? Personally I think if we leave it overflowing our warriors will probably invent sports or some equivalent so they have something to do while idle.
And is there any proof that overflowing Martial is bad? Personally I think if we leave it overflowing our warriors will probably invent sports or some equivalent so they have something to do while idle.
- Location
- United States
Could we establish a trading post near the HK?
Only if we find a site already near a settlement. If we don't get that lucky we also need a new settlement before the mine is possible.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
There are no valid trading post sites at the moment. Explore or expand more to make them available.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
True I did forget the Mine on my worst case. We'd be at Econ level !Stupid High! in turn three. Sort of a Panic mode reaction from the Provinces for Expand Holy site. Also by taking it instead of Study Stars, we end up in a really awkward resource position. I do keep forgetting the Canal bonus, derp. I need to make a list of all the bonuses we get so I can reference it.
Truthfully I predict that next turn or the following mid turn that we will have to respond to the Hathatyn that are getting uppity with a lot more boats. The peace offer should go well, we know how to deal with traders and we have booku tons of salt. Like literally shitting it out every where. We can brow beat them with the sheer shiny to go away for a while. Plus we aren't exactly traveling far so the curse of Twythulmyn the Cunning Linguist can't happen.
So we will have to be poking down the Hathayn with boats and walls. But on Balanced the Provinces can handle that.
Do you agree that if we try for Study <Metal> next turn and Change Policy and something else we should be safe from any Study Health derps? I'm like 95% certain that Redhill is a Hematite deposit so we should not need a settlement. So we can drop a Grand Sacrifice or something in there. Maybe even an Enforce Law.
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- Location
- Hell
It didn't last time, however low Centralization does cause cultural shift, so raising Centralization is still a good idea.
As is, the vote seems pretty locked