The day nomads acquire siegecraft is the day paying tribute becomes most likely cheaper and more efficient option. Unless you want all our cities to become smoldering ruing with pyramids of skulls around. *looks and Chenghiz and Tamerlan*

Like, when I said that weathering those nomadic pushes was an impressive feat, I've meant it. Nomads are really dangerous, and they've not hit peak of their danger yet - this will come with cavalry+siegecraft+them having actual army and tributary structure instead of a mere rampaging horde. Then we are all either paying tribute or, barring hilarious crits on our side and critfails on their, we are all but dead.
I think this is exaggerating. We're in a really good anti-nomad position right now. High population density, so quick civ response times. Huge population, so we can field a lot of military at need. Most of our terrain is low mobility except on our roads as well, making it hard to leverage their mobility. Waterways to facilitate supply and reinforcement in sieges.

If we become and remain militarily potent, there's a good chance we'll never need to pay tribute. Don't get me wrong; we'll have to pay the iron price again and again. But tribute is not a foregone conclusion for our civ.
 
So what I'm getting from this is. Build dam, mauntain and aquaducts, until we reach enough terraforming experience. To transform the steppe, into abunch of hills and a forest. Taking away soil on the shores, to make places for salterns and putting the soil into artificial hills, slowly increasing the size of the sea and turning the land into something else.

Dear God, this makes the mythical tower of Babel look like a sane engineering project.
 
Have to wonder why people feel restoring our military soon is worth less than walls right now. Either the martial help us exploit the TS when they're weakened, or if they manage to break free and want to start shit. That, and iron almost certainly opened up a ton of military innovation it'd be better to have sooner or later.
Generating active military is felt to be less necessary as they currently lack a target or immediate use. Walls are good until gunpowder if you keep the tech up. Currently the nearby steppes are weeded of nomads and the other issue the Thunder Speakers just failed to break off from the Thunder Horse... meaning unless HK goes psycho-betrayal monkey there isn't an immediate threat.

Though with the vote leaving offensive policies on your getting your military units anyway.
God help us if they spawn a third heroic general, or just start spawning them regularly now.
Honestly, they probably will spawn one soon as that is what their society encourages. Though it should be someone else's problem this time. No mercs to use in the nearby areas.
Reminder: We don't have enough Martial yet, because the Nomad Son survived and will be getting a posse to tear us a new asshole.
That would be rather dumb. The area around the Stallions is a dead zone currently. The People managed to toss out an extinction event locals so the steppe herpes has flared out for now. Also, pulling off that raid means they got their revenge on the no rolling over and submitting people. That was the revenge run for them. Better to fight where there are easier targets.
Golden Age transition they made. I wonder what.
The reason the Aztecs did the sacrifice thing was lack of megafauna. All that was left to eat in force was llama, chiwawa , and people. So they did constant war to get enough protean. Other peoples in South america actually figured out how to farm on top of lakes to get enough agriculture. The Aztecs solved the food issue through ritual sacrifice and war.

The Dead Priests actually solved this through declaring tribute prisoners. Much cheaper than war for the tributes and you can ditch your troublemakers and captured raiders on them. Once the TH trashed them down to a one city Civ they turned towards trading instead. So no war needed.

Now they have all the sacrifices they need and more incoming. For me the logical next step is to honor their nonlethal blood god and build an arena for gladiatorial combat. They have the second best healers so they can just recycle their gladiators.
Wait, so now our military consist of both a powerful elite core and a much larger, less well-trained/equipped horde? The Ymaryn just turned into a dinosaur-less Lizardmen army.
...which could evolve into an officer corp and grunts, though with the anti-magic tech and the anti-plague demon fixation this is even more true.
So entirely preventable if only we had watchtowers there huh.
Nope. The nomads no-selled the watchtowers so those needed a tech update for them not to be toys for the nomads.
As long as plains, horses and assholes exist in roughly the same area, nomads will exist. If you kill all of them it wont be long before the niche is filled with new tribes.
Quoted for truth.
But what about not killing them but just subduing them? Basically I want revenge, the nomads took our people so I want to kill all their men, marry off their women, and have their children indoctrinated to our ways:D.
Subduing who exactly? It will be generations until the steppe herpes has a real chance to flare up again. The local nomads have all been killed or fled... for now.
Shouldn't we have gotten some Prestige for apparently raiding the gods' tool shed?
I'm not sure that anyone has noticed yet. Lolwhat? is coming on that front.
"They got fucking starmetal. And they turned it into a pot!?"
Unlikely for now. Iron at the currently level rusts easily so is bad for
"That's it. They're insane. Totally. In. Sane."

*dejected sigh*
"They are also winning the tech race. Maybe sanity is holding us back"
*Order Above All interrupt!*
"OW!"
Quick question, will we ever gain the chance to get Iron weapons again automatically or will that be a separate project at some point?
Iron weapons are a thing already. The vote was for what what the first batch was concentrated on during the half turn. It wasn't about exclusivity of use.
Early Iron Bringers: Materials advancement always a possibility during Golden Ages, regardless of available excesses
Guess this was due to the Nat 100 that let us skip Bronze. Maybe we'll get steel during the next golden age.
:p Or even ancient plastic someday!
Bronze would still be very nice. Its largely weather proof and great for anything where iron rusting will really screw things up. Also, its stronger that iron for building. Its also more expensive per unit and far rarer.

Basically, iron is a hell of a thing, when everyone is hyped up for brass weapons being the bleeding age tech. Iron, particularly early iron, is kind of bad compared to bronze its just stupidly easier to get. iron isn't steel after all... unlike meteoric iron. Where durability isn't a major thing
"Their unleashing ninjas.:eek:"
Like they know what ninjas are. If they know we have ninja equivalents things have gone rather wrong.
We still have superior tech and numbers. I don't see why it shouldn't be possible if we build new settlements when the nomads are weakened (like now) and fortify those settlements heavily.
Sure its possible... its just asking for major trouble and strictly worse defensively that expanding south west into the hills. Its the kind of thing you do when you don't have a better choice or are taking a bet.

The best option for settling the steppes is to .... remove the steppes. A tower walk strategy. A slow terraforming march in their general direction. That takes forever.
 
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I think this is exaggerating. We're in a really good anti-nomad position right now. High population density, so quick civ response times. Huge population, so we can field a lot of military at need. Most of our terrain is low mobility except on our roads as well, making it hard to leverage their mobility. Waterways to facilitate supply and reinforcement in sieges.

If we become and remain militarily potent, there's a good chance we'll never need to pay tribute. Don't get me wrong; we'll have to pay the iron price again and again. But tribute is not a foregone conclusion for our civ.

Not foregone, sure, but we should be aware that it is an option and that, if nomads could conquer China (and late Western Roman Empire, I guess), we are not invulnerable. At all.
 
Not foregone, sure, but we should be aware that it is an option and that, if nomads could conquer China (and late Western Roman Empire, I guess), we are not invulnerable. At all.
True, but the issue is that its not game over if they get siege tech unless they are insanely stupid huge and annihilate The People in one go. It just starts an arms race.
 
Unlikely for now. Iron at the currently level rusts easily so is bad for
Actually, early iron is quite close to modern cast iron. They both rust easily, but cast iron is still valued for cooking. If we get the knack for seasoning it with oil or grease at high temperature, we'll be able to do this. And since slathering things in oil/grease is the essence of primitive rust-proofing, I wouldn't per surprised if it's common in a turn or two.
 
Actually, early iron is quite close to modern cast iron. They both rust easily, but cast iron is still valued for cooking. If we get the knack for seasoning it with oil or grease at high temperature, we'll be able to do this. And since slathering things in oil/grease is the essence of primitive rust-proofing, I wouldn't per surprised if it's common in a turn or two.
Fair on cast iron... but sealed ceramics are far better for long term storage. That is where my mind went on pot. Storage not cooking. If your neighbors are seeing iron pots I'd think of it as on a trade mission.

Now if The People have pigs I'd expect the magic of bacon cooking cast iron pan make eggs awesome to be a thing. As it is I don't think that flying pans are yet a thing.
 
Which I why I suggest we assimilate the lowlanders, preferably culturally over militarily. Why be Rome when you can be Greece?



More seriously, with the grudge against the nomads, the iron weapons and the likely continued threat from them if we leave them be I do think a military action is in order.

With that said, I see no reason why at the same time we couldn't continue to trade and culturally assimilate the lowlands.
 
More seriously, with the grudge against the nomads, the iron weapons and the likely continued threat from them if we leave them be I do think a military action is in order.

With that said, I see no reason why at the same time we couldn't continue to trade and culturally assimilate the lowlands.
I think our biggest mid-term military threat is from the notPersians. They have the administrative capacity to manage our people, and are probably the only faction with high population than us.
 
Soooo... When do we get a Project: Great Wall of the People?
That requires a source of large scale stone building practice like the Mountain wonder. Massive ability to move that stone to that site.. A desire to say screw it and build such a thing. Massive organizational skills. Enough issues with raids that a insanely long wall is a better use of manpower than more troops. Giving up on all lands beyond the wall.

So enough tech and a stupid long border with the nomads and trouble keeping them out on a massive scale.
With that said, I see no reason why at the same time we couldn't continue to trade and culturally assimilate the lowlands.
The HK maybe, but settling towards the TH and the TS is giving up a major deterrent to invasion. The HK are doing that right now and I fully expect it to suck The People into a war in time unless TH implodes.
 
Calm before the storm?
[X] Challenge belief (Begins event chain)
[X] [Main] Grand Sacrifice
[X] [Secondary] Restoration of Order
[X] [Secondary] Restoration of Order x2

Provinces [Main] Expand Warriors, [Main] More Blackbirds, Expand Econ x2

Stallion Tribes [Main] Expand Econ x2

After the chaos of war in past years, the king knew that now was the time to take a deep breath, regroup, and restore faith in the system. Grand sacrifices were ordered to show thanks and humility to the spirits, while the warriors and Blackbirds were to be deployed to root out corruption and discontent. The provinces also began directing resources towards actually organizing the large numbers of angry young men looking to become warriors, sending some off to become Blackbirds and smoothing out some of that anger, getting more of the youth to aggressively take up farming while serving in the militia rather than trying to push overly hard for becoming full time warriors.

The large number of those with some archery training passed down from their parents also produced an interesting result, in that when they were practicing the warriors directing the archers to fire at targets found it safest to have them start all at once and not retrieve their arrows until after everyone had fired, and it was noted that there was a peculiar effect of all the archers starting at once. Grouping them together, they had then tried firing at the same general target all at once, and it was noted that the process was actually rather unnerving. Only actual battle would test whether the idea was truly worthwhile, but the act of getting several hundred archers together and having them fire all at once was bound to be terrifying, and also probably a good way to saturate an area when trying to hit chariot archers.

Recruiting archers was also especially useful in that while they needed a tremendous amount of training, it didn't need to be nearly as mono-focused as the charioteers or dedicated melee troops, and could practice their skills as hunters or just in off hours in farming and not suffer the same degree of problems.

The increased amount of iron in tools also had a significant effect as it propagated out, not least of which was that iron tools made it easier to work and mine iron, leading to a greater availability of iron with which to make more tools and weapons. While this fairly quickly reached capacity for the mine they had, it had a notable, society wide effect.

Iron Mine Reached Equilibrium
+4 Econ, +4 Martial


Speaking of notable, society wide effects, the traders rather terrifyingly discovered where the mass of hostile natives had gone after pillaging the People: they had swung far to the north, replenishing their numbers somewhat along the way before swinging back down in the far west, crashing into the Metal Workers. While weakened and nowhere near as dangerous with their first king having passed on, and the terrain not favouring them, the nomads very quickly were able to isolate the mountain kingdom and force a series of political intermarriages. Any trade would have to go through the nomadic tribes first, and they weren't exactly friendly.

-2 Diplo from lost trade ties

There were almost immediate calls to attack, but the actual warriors fairly quickly pointed out that the distance was far too great, and the best that they could do was to begin militarizing that frontier in anticipation of future conflicts. While there had been some plans to send in mostly farmers to the far north-western shore of the sea before, now there were calls to send in a warrior rich group to begin setting up frontier outposts.

Far North-West site can now be used as either a March or a Colony
Begin establishing March?

[] No, stay at home
[] Yes, send out the warriors (-5 Martial, -2 Econ)

Also in nomad news, a tribe was seen coming from the east, although their disposition was very different from prior groups, and early scouting suggested that they might actually be a very large trade caravan. Given the general depletion of tribes in the past few generations, it was within the realm of consideration that peoples who had never before been encountered might be trying to explore the now mostly vacated steppes. Still, the People were very wary and there were definitely calls to drive these newcomers away before they had even a chance to settle.

What to do about these newcomers?
[] Drive them away
[] Attempt peaceful contact

Meanwhile in the south the Thunder Speakers had been crushed in their rebellion, their nobility shamed or executed - and by executed the Thunder Horse had handed over large numbers to the priests of the Xohyssiri for their remarkable contributions to the fighting - and being tied ever further into the Thunder Horse system of family alliances. The Thunder Speaker was reduced to an entirely religious position and huge numbers of surviving warriors were essentially conscripted by being sent far from their home territory to guard other parts of the Thunder Horse lands in exchange for the continued safety of family held as hostages, while Thunder Horse warriors would be stationed to guard Thunder Speaker lands from incursions. Seeing this, the Highlands Kingdom seemed to pause in their attempts to push into the lowlands and instead focus upon consolidating and strengthening the hold they already had upon their territory.

This of course meant that the Hathatyn had to start getting rowdy. Technically they weren't attacking, but they had sure made it clear that they intended to expand their influence and were causing all sorts of problems in Southshore with their fishers and the People's fishers starting to more ferociously compete over the best fishing grounds, with fights and the occasional skirmish or raid breaking out. Thus far it wasn't that big of a problem, but it seemed obvious that the Hathatyn were now intending to flex their muscles and weren't particularly aware of the People enough to care if they happened to be in the way. It wasn't quite enough to call for outright war just yet, but it was enough of a problem that the king would have to keep an eye on the issue for the next several years.

Which was what made the bickering of shamans before him rather obnoxious. There was a growing rift between the shamans over the spiritual nature of metal. While some claimed that it was intrinsically cursed and just the act of bringing it to the surface lead to the displeasure of the spirits, others stated that these claims were spurious and that whatever poisons metals and their byproducts had they could not trigger plagues and invasions on their own. The argument was getting pretty fierce and threatened to have the shamans at each other's throats, and the king wanted to just tell them to shut up. Unfortunately, they both had good points and the king couldn't really come to such a complex decision on his own. On the one hand the side that pointed to metal being cursed did have evidence of spiritual displeasure to back them up, while on the other hand their opponents were able to point to all of the good that metal tools and weapons were bringing, and the fact that mere operation of mines didn't seem to bring disaster.

Eventually all the king could think of was that the anti-crowd had to demonstrate a lack of disaster for their position... which meant that they had to repeat the processes that in the past were associated with disaster and ruin...

Considering the state of affairs among their neighbours, the king suddenly had a massive sinking feeling in his gut. He and his successors were probably in for a bad time

Challenge Started!
You have 3 turns to complete the following:
[Main] Study Metal, [Main] Study Tailings, [Main] Study Health + Metal or Tailings, [Main] Build Mine

Initial Actions
[] Study Metal (-1 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Stability, improved chance of new insights)
[] Study Tailings (-1 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Stability, improved chance of new insights)
[] Survey Lands (-1 Econ, improved odds of success)
 
Here is my solution to nomads... trade with them, grain (who have been sleeped on by rats), clothes and horses (with typhus tick and anything similiar to spotted fever), let's see whon they fare with diseases that will travel together with their lovely horses. The only way for them to get rid would be burning the steppes.

Typhus - Wikipedia
Bubonic plague - Wikipedia
Rocky Mountain spotted fever - Wikipedia

This was a technique used by brazilian Bandeirantes against Quilombos, extremely effective and totaly brutal.
 
I think you guys are starting to become a little too caught up in history. While this quest is very much based off of historical information(extremely accurate actually). You have to remember that this isn't actual history and we can do things that's ahistorical(we have iron during the copper age.) we can deal with the Nomads if via crowding them out or killing them.
 
The large number of those with some archery training passed down from their parents also produced an interesting result, in that when they were practicing the warriors directing the archers to fire at targets found it safest to have them start all at once and not retrieve their arrows until after everyone had fired, and it was noted that there was a peculiar effect of all the archers starting at once. Grouping them together, they had then tried firing at the same general target all at once, and it was noted that the process was actually rather unnerving. Only actual battle would test whether the idea was truly worthwhile, but the act of getting several hundred archers together and having them fire all at once was bound to be terrifying, and also probably a good way to saturate an area when trying to hit chariot archers.

I dare those fucking nomads to attack us now.
 
[X] Yes, send out the warriors (-5 Martial, -2 Econ)
[X] Attempt peaceful contact
[X] Survey Lands (-1 Econ, improved odds of success)
 
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[X] [March] Yes, send out the warriors (-5 Martial, -2 Econ)
[X] [Caravan] Attempt peaceful contact
[X] [Challenge] Survey Lands (-1 Econ, improved odds of success)
 
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I think you guys are starting to become a little too caught up in history. While this quest is very much based off of historical information(extremely accurate actually). You have to remember that this isn't actual history and we can do things that's ahistorical(we have iron during the copper age.) we can deal with the Nomads if via crowding them out or killing them.
right, did you just read what has happened, The nomads that we have WEAKENED manage to roflstomp a civilization and force them to a marriage alliance.
The problem that should not be called upon is not whether the game is historical, but why did nomads were so commonplace is history?
 
[X] Yes, send out the warriors (-5 Martial, -2 Econ)
[X] Attempt peaceful contact
[X] Survey Lands (-1 Econ, improved odds of success)
 
So we now have massed fire and over limit Martial. We might survive a main war mission from the Thunder Horse! Yippee!

The bigger problem is that we need to burn martial but don't have a good way to do that. Right now if we establish that FNW March, we can't make a more strategically sound March like the one to the Northeast, which might cause other problems come next turn. While it might cause us problems for one turn, establishing that March is just not going to help as much in the long term as just bearing it for one turn.

In good news however, RoO came through for us and now we're sitting at a pretty 1 Stab right now.
 
[X] No, stay at home
[X] Attempt peaceful contact
[X] Study Tailings (-1 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Stability, improved chance of new insights)
 
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