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Paths of Civilization

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pblur said:
IIRC we only went out to take back the star axe for our allies.
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Eh, the actual reasons were more political than 'we will reclaim the star axe for our allies'. The people needed to neutralize a competing power that might have been able to control a warrior civ, so long as they held that axe. The people really didn't like the magic of the Spirt Talkers, because the players didn't like the smoke and mirrors of a static molasses tar pit civ. No one really expected the Spirit Talkers who had been doing fine against the original Dead Priests to cave with a little help from the Ymaryn.
 
Lone Wolf 666 said:
"Uhhh guys. Remember the treehugging people?."

"Yeah?!.:???:"

"Their unleashing ninjas.:eek:"

"BULLSHIT."
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The ironworking is going to be much more potent and perception shattering than unleashing the Blackbird, who, to the best of my knowledge, are just stealthy archers with stone arrows.

But the iron is a game changer, and will completely cement the People's place as spiritual powerhouses. Where did these weapons come from? And the People keep calling them "Weapons of the Gods". There's a good chance that others will believe the weapons to be magical. Also, the iron brings up another point that I think we should address:

Empire.

If we do go full militarism, should we conquer other civilizations as well and expand?
 
Can we please not go full militarism, I see absolutely no reason that we would need to and plenty of reasons why we shouldn't and should instead continue to focus on internal development and peaceful trade.
 
BlueFlamingWings said:
The ironworking is going to be much more potent and perception shattering than unleashing the Blackbird, who, to the best of my knowledge, are just stealthy archers with stone arrows.

But the iron is a game changer, and will completely cement the People's place as spiritual powerhouses. Where did these weapons come from? And the People keep calling them "Weapons of the Gods". There's a good chance that others will believe the weapons to be magical. Also, the iron brings up another point that I think we should address:

Empire.

If we do go full militarism, should we conquer other civilizations as well and expand?
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Honestly, evolving the trait was essentially the 'militarize this shit' option. We could have been quite terrifying with casus belli generation, Econ as martial, Weapons of the gods as a positive military trait. and iron before people have bronze. Plus one of the largest populations in the known world, tucked away into rather defensible woods.

Instead, we went for the Builder option. We're going to turtle up, expand slowly if at all, and out-tech/admin/wonder them all.
 
[X] Challenge belief (Begins event chain)
[X] [Main] Grand Sacrifice
[X] [Secondary] Restoration of Order
[X] [Secondary] Restoration of Order x2

Changed my vote.
 
Just because we might have the ability to conquer people (which to be fair is nice to have even if just as insurance) that doesn't mean we need to use it for that.
 
2xMachina said:
Where the DP changed to pacifism, the People changed into militarism :p
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AN balancing the scales

pblur said:
Instead, we went for the Builder option. We're going to turtle up, expand slowly if at all, and out-tech/admin/wonder them all.
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We're going to have to expand if y'all want these megaprojects and aqueducts built. We have ~ 16 slots for one (? two?) each, ~24 aqueduct slots for one econ each, and 5 megaprojects which all cost Econ.

Like, we could probably just constantly do a Main Expand Forest but I'm p sure that if we spam it as a main enough times AN will put a cap on the # of expansions we can do. Settlements are just better.

Edit: Oh, also, before we start on megaprojects we need to establish 1) the trading post to keep overflowing diplo, 2) another march for defense, 3) probably a colony to feed us Econ.
BlueFlamingWings said:
are just stealthy archers with stone arrows.
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They're stealthy archers with iron arrows and poison, my good sir.
 
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To be honest, while we would probably be able to conquer a lot of territory, how long do you think we would be able to hold it? Especially when the iron secret inevitably leaks out/people killed enough of our soldiers to fit out their own armies?
 
Umi-san said:
AN balancing the scales


We're going to have to expand if y'all want these megaprojects and aqueducts built. We have ~ 16 slots for one (? two?) each, ~24 aqueduct slots for one econ each, and 5 megaprojects which all cost Econ.

Like, we could probably just constantly do a Main Expand Forest but I'm p sure that if we spam it as a main enough times AN will put a cap on the # of expansions we can do. Settlements are just better.
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That's ignoring True City status. Given that the trigger for that is:
  • Not having many econ slots open
  • Having an aqueduct
I'm pretty sure it relieves econ slot limits. Narratively that makes sense too; cities support much high population density than the sort of town+settlement setup we currently use.
 
Umi-san said:
We're going to have to expand if y'all want these megaprojects and aqueducts built. We have ~ 16 slots for one (? two?) each, ~24 aqueduct slots for one econ each, and 5 megaprojects which all cost Econ.

Like, we could probably just constantly do a Main Expand Forest but I'm p sure that if we spam it as a main enough times AN will put a cap on the # of expansions we can do. Settlements are just better.
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I'd prefer a Change Policy: Balance. Because we currently don't have enough expand forest actions done that a cap can even be suggested. We need more trees in the lands we have, so when the nomads invade with their hero unit it won't be an annoying Hero SMASH. "NO YWARYN CAN STOP NOMAD HERO!! HERO, SMASH PUNY PEOPLE."
 
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Elbrasch said:
To be honest, while we would probably be able to conquer a lot of territory, how long do you think we would be able to hold it? Especially when the iron secret inevitably leaks out/people killed enough of our soldiers to fit out their own armies?
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Remember that iron is something like 4-5 techs, not one. In RL, civilizations kept it from their neighbors for centuries (for instance, the Hittites.)
 
Elbrasch said:
To be honest, while we would probably be able to conquer a lot of territory, how long do you think we would be able to hold it? Especially when the iron secret inevitably leaks out/people killed enough of our soldiers to fit out their own armies?
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Forever...? It depends on how steadily we've fortified it, the surface area to volume ratio, and how easy the place in question is to reach from more densely populated regions.

It's unlikely that people are going to be like, "Wow, I want these super effective weapons... let's go try and take them from the people who already have them!!"

pblur said:
That's ignoring True City status. Given that the trigger for that is:
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I'd prefer not to speculate on something we know nothing about. If you'd like to speculate, however, I'd note that econ slots are awarded upon finishing the aqueducts and are thus unlikely to be rewarded yet again.

Marlin said:
I'd prefer a balance policy. Because we currently don't have enough expand forest actions done that a cap can even be suggested. We need more trees in the lands we have, so when the nomads invade with their hero unit it won't be an annoying Hero SMASH. "NO YWARYN CAN STOP NOMAD HERO!! HERO, SMASH PUNY PEOPLE."
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You mean Change Policy: Balance? Or what?

I'm fine with expanding trees and didn't protest against them... I just also want to expand settlements.
 
pblur said:
Remember that iron is something like 4-5 techs, not one. In RL, civilizations kept it from their neighbors for centuries (for instance, the Hittites.)
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centuries represent ~3-5 turns per century, it would probably take us at least a century to conquer all the kindoms we know of. And while Iron is higher in our historical tech tree, the knowledge itself can be stolen, remember how we acquired the copper knowledge from the metal worker by use of blackbird? Combine that with broad perfusion of iron tools through our population and genral knowledge of "Yeah, there is a mine at red cliff that has completely red soil" and I can see a dedicated NegaVerse figuring Iron out.
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Umi-san said:
Forever...? It depends on how steadily we've fortified it, the surface area to volume ratio, and how easy the place in question is to reach from more densely populated regions.

It's unlikely that people are going to be like, "Wow, I want these super effective weapons... let's go try and take them from the people who already have them!!"
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I am more thinking about the problem of administrating larger empires, which is an inherent tech barrier that won't be solved till electricity.
 
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Elbrasch said:
I am more thinking about the problem of administrating larger empires, which is an inherent tech barrier that won't be solved till electricity.
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I mean.... Rome... China.... Incas.... Britain...... Turks.... idk african empires but I heard there was a hella big one in the bronze age....

Edit: We stole ore samples from the metal workers and that's about it. But I somewhat agree. Still takes oven knowledge tho. And tailing pits if they don't want to poison people. We really need to study those at some point to see if we can detoxify them.
 
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BlueFlamingWings said:
The ironworking is going to be much more potent and perception shattering than unleashing the Blackbird, who, to the best of my knowledge, are just stealthy archers with stone arrows.

But the iron is a game changer, and will completely cement the People's place as spiritual powerhouses. Where did these weapons come from? And the People keep calling them "Weapons of the Gods". There's a good chance that others will believe the weapons to be magical. Also, the iron brings up another point that I think we should address:

Empire.

If we do go full militarism, should we conquer other civilizations as well and expand?
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Conquering a civilization is a tricky thing. It leaves you vulnerable to revolutions and civil war. It'd be better to expand north by pushing out the nomads and settling the land with our own people. This would also have the advantage of slowly wiping out the nomads as they run out grazing land. Basically a U.S./Russia Manifest Destiny strategy.
 
Timewinders said:
Conquering a civilization is a tricky thing. It leaves you vulnerable to revolutions and civil war. It'd be better to expand north by pushing out the nomads and settling the land with our own people. This would also have the advantage of slowly wiping out the nomads as they run out grazing land. Basically a U.S./Russia Manifest Destiny strategy.
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There's a reason both those examples are post enlightenment. Making inroads into the steppe is incredibly hard before then.
 
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Oh god not 'colonising steppes is totally easy peasy nobody has done it historically before ~16th century because they were morons despite having had to deal with nomad shit for thousands of years' thing again.
 
You know if we really wanted to make it so our civ can keep tabs on our neighbors at all times I would suggest we do a major expansion of the blackbirds followed up by Tradeposts on the same turn. Maybe we could be the first civ to start a spy ring. It'd certainly give our guys an in to other nations to get intel and sabotage them.

Timewinders said:
We still have superior tech and numbers. I don't see why it shouldn't be possible if we build new settlements when the nomads are weakened (like now) and fortify those settlements heavily.
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Hmm next turn we should finish off foresting and walling the stallion tribe and see about expanding. Although I think we should set out our trade posts beforehand to make sure we have an ample amount of diplo overflowing.
 
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